AFC President message to FFA: no NZ teams by 2011

621 replies · 9,179 views

over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ for me there is a fundamental difference. Liverpool (to whom I do have a familial link, my step father is from liverpool and has trialled for liverpool) has the opportunity to pick anyone who they want.

If the phoenix have the obligation to consider new zealanders as foreigners at the same level as say brazilians, then that is a farcical situation and should not exist. And I don't think that the club sould exist if that is the case.

and there is a fundamental difference in my mind.

Fair enough. (And you do have some affinity with Liverpool then.)

Though it did occur to me that Liverpool having only a couple of national players through choice is probably worse than the Nix having only three national players through force!

I'd still find it more logical to support a team based in my city of residence with more of my nationals than a team on the other side of the world with none in your position, but hey, it's your call.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

wellyphoenixfan wrote:

Paraphrase of the main points:
-Phoenix are part of a different confederation then Australia, only club in the entire world with this problem.

No.ï¿½ Tahitian and New Caledonian clubs play in the French cup.ï¿½

Yeah I know but when you said that alot of people debated that and it said that it wasn't a UEFA competition I remember alot of people disagreeing on it so didn't put it in. Either way we are the only club in the world in a different confederation league trying to qualify for a CL-type competition.wellyphoenixfan2008-12-12 17:29:23

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

wellyphoenixfan wrote:

Proposed solutions:
-One confederation, one league.
-Merge with AFC
-Split Asia and Oceania into two meaning that there will be a south-east Asia confederation and a Western confederation. We would be apart of the South-East Asia confederation.

You've probably covered it. Throw in the proposal of NZ joining AFC and I think you have a complete list.

Ultimately, it seems that Australia leaving the OFC has caused us the main problem. NZ joining Asia would be the simplest solution. We would then have many credible precedent of teams in one country competing in the league of another country. As it is, we lack any precedent - I don't think the French Cup is going to cut it.

I believe, though stand to be corrected, that it would be far simpler change to get a NZ move to AFC through the FIFA committees than trying to convince everyone to vote for a re-drawing of confederations. Let's face it, few Asian countries would vote for the whole of OFC merging with the AFC. Even less likely would they vote for being split up.

The one league also sounds like a problem. We can't get proper television coverage of All White games in the Pacific Islands with TVNZ claiming lack of facilities - how are we going to get a professional league going without television rights?

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Coming back to the Nix and the likelihood of NZers being considered foreign imports... at the moment, we do have an unfair advantage over the Australian clubs. That advantage was never going to be allowed to continue long term was it? So we always knew that there was going to be a problem at some point, even if it hadn't been expressed. In real terms, nothing has really changed has it? It's just been forced into everyone's thoughts by the AFC president's comments.

Unless all A-League clubs were going to be allowed to have NZers counted as non-foreign, I reckon we were always going to face this - just a question of when.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

SiNZ wrote:

wellyphoenixfan wrote:

Proposed solutions: -One confederation, one league. -Merge with AFC -Split Asia and Oceania into two meaning that there will be a south-east Asia confederation and a Western confederation. We would be apart of the South-East Asia confederation.

ï¿½

You've probably covered it. Throw in the proposal of NZ joining AFC and I think you have a complete list.

ï¿½

Ultimately, it seems that Australiaï¿½leaving theï¿½OFC has caused us the main problem. NZ joining Asia would be the simplest solution. We would then have many credible precedent of teams in one country competing in the league of another country. As it is, we lack any precedent - I don't think the French Cup is going to cut it.

ï¿½

The one league also sounds like a problem. We can't get proper television coverage of All White games in the Pacific Islands with TVNZ claiming lack of facilitiesï¿½- how are we going to get a professional league going without television rights?

Thanks forgot that. Doubt it would happen as OFC would be destroyed.wellyphoenixfan2008-12-12 17:42:09

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

wellyphoenixfan wrote:

SiNZ wrote:

[QUOTE=wellyphoenixfan] Throw in the proposal of NZ joining AFC and I think you have a complete list.

Thanks forgot that. Doubt it would happen as OFC would be destroyed.

Indeed, though they should have been thinking of the downstream effects of letting Australia go - seems obvious that NZ would eventually have to consider following.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

A solution could be to allow all clubs to sign NZers as non-foreigners this would REALLY piss off AFC president and Australia might not even be allowed.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

That was the case up until the start of last season, but it was changed so clubs didn't need to make wholesale roster changes for Asian competition.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hard News wrote:

That was the case up until the start of last season, but it was changed so clubs didn't need to make wholesale roster changes for Asian competition.

Oh I suppose they could allow this rule and clubs could just exclude Kiwis (or other imports) when playing in AFC and its not like other clubs would be forced to sign Kiwis.

EDIT: Just remembered this would be even more possible due to the case of the NYL and clubs have larger rosters (except for us). Of course we would be stuffed if we got into the AFC most of our players couldn't play.wellyphoenixfan2008-12-12 17:58:58

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

No, but it is one of the primary reasons why the Phoenix in the ACL presents such a problem.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

HN just wondering is there any league in Asia which competes in the ACL that has no import rules?

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Why does that matter?
valeo2008-12-12 21:52:39

a.haak

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

valeo wrote:

Why does that matter?

Because the ACL does have import rules?

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

chocnut wrote:

valeo wrote:

Why does that matter?

Because the ACL does have import rules?

Yup exactly it matters hugely, if say the J-league didn't have import rules then what do they do when they enter the ACL? Although I doubt, because of the reason News stated before, that there is any league without import rules.wellyphoenixfan2008-12-12 22:05:41

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Thanks for all this clarification....boy what a mess!!

i thought that FIFA set these rules globally....obviously not. You can have the EPL which is open completly to players from anywhere( hence Arsenal can field 11 non Englishmen) including players from outside the EU. Then you have the Asian president saying the Phoenix can't field anymore than 3 kiwis, then you have football Australia saying that the number of foreign players in any A-League team will increase to 5 with the new expansion next year. who controls what?

How is the humble football fan meant to figure all this out.? Do we know what NZfootball think of this? After all they hold the Phoenix's licence.

This is giving me a head ache.....I think I'll just go along and enjoy the game tonight...Is'nt that what its all meant to be about?

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I will donate $100 to a Kiwi charity if they kick out the Nux...

Won't happen, FFA decided at the time to keep a presence in NZ. So it is their fault.

Plus the A-League is the lifeline of the continued success of the Socceroos, which needs a Kiwi team in the league.

I really wouldn't fret too much.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Egan wrote:

I will donate $100 to a Kiwi charity if they kick out the Nux...

Won't happen, FFA decided at the time to keep a presence in NZ. So it is their fault.

Plus the A-League is the lifeline of the continued success of the Socceroos, which needs a Kiwi team in the league.

I really wouldn't fret too much.

Mate, I don't understand your post at all. Because it is FFA's fault we're in the A League, how does that make us safe?

Why does the A League NEED a Kiwi team in it? You don't think they'd be as successful without us?

I reckon we need the A League much more than they need us.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

It's getting worse!!! Guess some people have seen these, but they don't seem to be in the news section. These are "must reads" - two Sunday News stories today. The first headline is:

"Kick the Nix out say Asian soccer boss"

THE future of the Wellington Phoenix is back in doubt ï¿½ with the clubï¿½s most powerful opponent threatening to axe the team from the A-League after 2011.

Asian Football Confederation boss said he would ï¿½tolerateï¿½ï¿½ the Nixï¿½s involvement in the competition ï¿½for nowï¿½ï¿½.

But he says it will be a different story when the clubï¿½s new licence expires in three years.

Last night, the Phoenixï¿½s multi-millionaire owner Terry Serepisos admitted the long-term future of the club is uncertain going forward.

(read the whole thing at...)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaynews/4792322a15599.html

The others Sunday News headline reads:

Aussies back club but Asians have final say

WHILE football bosses in Australia are publicly supporting the Wellington Phoenix's long-term future in the A-League, the Asian Football Confederation will decide the club's status.

The Nix's future was discussed by the Football Federation's Australian and AFC bosses in China recently.

"We (still) need to work through some potential hurdles but I think there are some solutions post-2011 and we need to work with Wellington and we need to work with the AFC," FFA boss Ben Buckley told Fairfax last week.

"First and foremost, it is our competition, so in the first instance we would have to approve or at least desire Wellington to be in the competition.

"It has to be approved by FIFA ultimately but if the AFC had objections to the way we structure, then we have to take that into account as well."

Given that Australia has announced a bid to host the 2018 World Cup, it is unlikely that the FFA will do anything to get offside with their AFC bosses in the next few years.

(read the rest at:)

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sundaynews/4792299a15599.html

scribbler2008-12-14 11:22:21

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

This is turning into a joke imo..

Scottishbhoy2008-12-14 11:27:05

ive got a song that wont take long, Adelaide are rubbish.. the second verse is same as the first.. ADELAIDE ARE RUBBISH

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Agreed. They need to have some conference, get everyone involved to attend and sort the whole thing out there. Otherwise this will continue to be a cloud hanging over the heads of everyone at the Phoenix (not to mention the fans).

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

loyalgunner wrote:

Yeah, and it might take all of our remaining three years to get a result. Guess Terry and Tony will throw themselves into this. They've got too much to lose.

It seems harsh, but if NZ going into Asia means the rest of Oceania suffers - sorry guys - but we've got to do what's best for us. Losing the Phoenix would be a huge blow to local football.

It's already been pointed out by others in this thread, that the dollars from TV rights with us playing in Oceania are negligible.

If the All White started playing decent Asian countries on a regular basis, that would immediately raise our profile - and TV revenue for Sky and the code - something we can't do as long as we stay and play in the islands.

If we did force our way into Asia, I suspect that might force FIFA to address the problems in what's left of Oceania and take action - something they can largely ignore as long as there's one mid-level international country - us - playing there.

I believe it needs NZ footballing interests - club and country - to urgently push every button they can, and call in any favours owed, to get NZ into Asia and make the Phoenix a true Asian team. And it's urgent! IMO.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/a-league/the-ugly-side-of-league-expansion/2008/12/13/1228585178201.html

Small article about half way down but shows Mohamed bin Hammam mind set and he seems a tad power hungery and wants his own way.

Late starters need not apply

WANT a job at the Asian Football Confederation's Kuala Lumpur office? Don't be late for work. An ESPN interview with AFC Prez Mohamed bin Hammam suggested KL employees who arrive more than 15 minutes late for a 9am start are locked out of the car park and required to take a day's unpaid leave.

Socceroo/ Mariner / Whangarei

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Scibbler

Agree your last post.

Socceroo/ Mariner / Whangarei

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I hear one of the workarounds may be to treat the Nix as an Australian club, which would mean that New Zealanders would be foreign players and thus the squad would have to be mostly Australian. I'm not sure how that would help New Zealand Football all that much and that's what I see the Phoenix as being, a professionally run club with a mind to help grow the product of football in New Zealand.

If that was the workaround that came to be, I couldn't follow the Phoenix. Same as it is with the Warriors in the NRL, it's our team. It's our club. It's for our development. New Zealand Rugby League just won the World Cup, albeit a mighty underdog achievement on the night, but the Warriors in being able to expose New Zealanders to the professional NRL environment consistently has greatly helped them out. Much the same as the Nix greatly help out the All Whites. If the club was based in Wellington, I doubt the club would compete effectively in the salary cap anyway - why leave your home environment for a comparable wage where your extended family is back overseas? We're not talking Premiership money here. Which would mean that the 'Nix would probably have to pay overs for their Australians to come here, which means the general quality of player would be lower than the Australian clubs, which along with the feeling and sentiment that it's not our club would mean I feel crowd numbers would die a slow tragic death. How do you market something that's supposed to be our own that isn't our own anymore and is severely undervalued in squad equality?

The Knights were supposed to help out the growth of New Zealand Football, but due to an overall bungle of epic proportions they did more harm than good. The last thing New Zealand Football needs when perhaps rugby league might also be getting it's act together is for the marketable entity of it's growth to be bungled by bureaucratic mismanagement. In the overall scheme of things FIFA don't regard NZF as being a vital part of their group development, which is sad because New Zealanders have a habit of defying the odds and that's largely the same for a lot of poorer South American countries who also defy adversity to be the best in the world. Even more so in the African nations. FIFA relies on those fighting economies to build their product, and yet one that has never really broken free except for a fleeting time in the early 80s is possibly going to be culled at the expense of a rough technicality.

10/10 for fairness and intelligence from our Qatari friend. FIFA, the world game for the people, but only if it serves certain political interests, right Bin Hammam?

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

The(O)Dor wrote:

With regard to NZ players being treated as imports, we at the moment have an advantage over the other clubs in the A-League. From our perspective, what we need is for the other Australian clubs to have the same rights to treat NZ players as local. The alternative is we must treat NZ players as imports. This was something we were always going to face eventually.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

and that is why the simplest solution is for either the Nix, NZ or Oceania to become part of the AFC. I'd like Hammam to come out and say exactly what his problem with us is.

You know we belong together...

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Oska wrote:

and that is why the simplest solution is for either the Nix, NZ or Oceania to become part of the AFC. I'd like Hammam to come out and say exactly what his problem with us is.

Agree totally.....to me this is the only acceptible solution. Its either 3 kiwis only in the Nix or NZ joins Asia or the nix are history post 2011.

It is too important for the future of NZ football to let the Nix fail. Don't count on the Oz Football Fed going out on a limb for us. THe support they need from Asia for their WC bid far outways any loyalty to the Phoenix.

I am sure that a lot of work is being done behind closed doors to sort this out. I don't think the Asia President will budge. IMO the only realistic solution is for NZ to join Asia.

I still reckon we have some leverage with our Oceania vote in FIFA. It needs to be pointed out that if the Asian Fed shaft the only professional club in Oceania then they should not count on Oceania voting for Asia to host FIFA tournaments. NZ is the largest and richest country in Oceania, I am sure we could get the Oceania committee going in to bat for us.

Lowry said that one day Oceania could have a united team in the a-League...this was only politics, it will never happen. He was just trying to shore up the Oceania vote for the Oz world cup bid. These things are always about politics

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Napier Phoenix wrote:

Mate, I don't understand your post at all. Because it is FFA's fault we're in the A League, how does that make us safe?

Why does the A League NEED a Kiwi team in it? You don't think they'd be as successful without us?

I reckon we need the A League much more than they need us.

Because the FFA should have known about these issues before it delivered another license to New Zealand after withdrawing the Knights license.

2011 Contract expiring is a possibility. But as the article suggested, it will probably become a fully Australian club like the other A-League clubs.

This may then deliver the opinion by the AFC that Wellington can actually participate in the AFC Champions League.

At the end of the day, I doubt the doomsday position will come true. If it does, you should start protesting against the FFA for delivering you a license, despite not being warned that you could be kicked out in a few years time due to the AFC having an issue with it.

Egan2008-12-14 18:17:51

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

zinidane wrote:

Oska wrote:

and that is why the simplest solution is for either the Nix, NZ or Oceania to become part of the AFC. I'd like Hammam to come out and say exactly what his problem with us is.

Agree totally.....to me this is the only acceptible solution. Its either 3 kiwis only in the Nix or NZ joins Asia or the nix are history post 2011.

I am sure that a lot of work is being done behind closed doors to sort this out. I don't think the Asia President will budge. IMO the only realistic solution is for NZ to join Asia.

I can see a bunch of people confusing the Nix with New Zealand football. I'm not sure , that just because the Nix may not get a license in the A-League beyond 2011, NZ should try and join Asia. The A-League and international football aren't linked. Why would New Zealand football start a big campaign to join Asia to save a club? It would be nice but not a priority.
I agree that it would be great for NZ to be part of AFC, but I don't think the Nix will be the catalyst.

Same with the vote for the WC. What has a club in the A-League got to do with NZ football? Other than disappoint the guys at headquarters it makes no difference. The world cup down here is too good not to support.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Royal wrote:

Same with the vote for the WC. What has a club in the A-League got to do with NZ football? Other than disappoint the guys at headquarters it makes no difference. The world cup down here is too good not to support.

Nobody supports a World Cup bid for nothing... palms need greasing, it's how it works.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Royal wrote:

....I can see a bunch of people confusing the Nix with New Zealand football. I'm not sure , that just because the Nix may not get a license in the A-League beyond 2011, NZ should try and join Asia. The A-League and international football aren't linked. Why would New Zealand football start a big campaign to join Asia to save a club? It would be nice but not a priority.
I agree that it would be great for NZ to be part of AFC, but I don't think the Nix will be the catalyst....

completely disagree, losing the Nix would be a huge blow for football in New Zealand. It give players a better pathway to playing at higher levels overseas and keeps current All Whites playing at a much higher level than they would be in Aussie State Leagues or the NZFC. Then there is the fact that a professional team here gives people a football side to support and better coverage of the game.

You know we belong together...

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Oska wrote:

Royal wrote:

Agreed completely with Oska (sorry royal)

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

well it would also badly hurt the club competitvely I think. In order to keep players like Tim Brown and Lochead, you would have too not get players like Fred. In the majority it wouldn't be Australia helping us develop it would be us helping Australia.

I think players like McKain and Hearfield have definitely benefited from their time with the 'Nix...

It would be difficult to support the club under those circumstances, or at least a bitter taste, even if we were doing well.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

One encouraging thing I have gained from following the links posted by Midfielder is that Bin Hannam is capable of U-turns, and when it suits him he claims to have the health of football at heart (as opposed to his own political power).

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/asia/bin-hammam-does-39th-u-turn-121360/

Hopefully if it becomes in his interest to realise that keeping the Phoenix benefits football in a market where it is growing against rugby dominance he will conveniently do a U-turn on this as well. Just needs the political stars to align I guess, such as OFC linking it to 11 votes regarding 2018 WC host or the right people publicly pointing out that he would be harming football.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

^"It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he makes wide slaughter in the land." (Koran, Sura 8.67)

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Torne wrote:

Oska wrote:

Royal wrote:

Agreed completely with Oska (sorry royal)

I have never doubted the importance of the Nix and proffesional football in NZ, so you've confused the issue somewhere. What I'm struggling to picture is the mighty Micheal Glading and his boys and girls sitting around plotting a way in to another confederation wholeheartedly just to save the Nix. There has to be other compelling reasons, which we know there is. I can't possibly think for a moment that our wonderful club is the catalyst for a re-think at this level, though it probably is a cause for concern for them.

Same with World Cup HN. All sorts of political crap takes place, but to argue the world cup v's the Nix place in the A-League? I guess what you are syaing is that it is an opportune time for NZ to push for a place in Asia in any case in exchange for a vote for the WC in Aus in 2016. That makes sense, but the Nix would only be a side issue.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Out of left field - and purely to help us fight off Bin Hannam and his threat to the Nix - Wynton Rufer's standing in world football is unquestioned. He rubs shoulders with the top guns in the game. I suspect he can open doors most people don't even know are there. And I'm sure even Sepp Blatter would return his calls.

Okay, okay, I know Winton can be difficult, touchy, blow hot and cold. BUT, he must have some friends in NZ football circles who could persuade him to consider helping the Nix fight off this threat. I don't know who, or how, but if someone doesn't ask, we'll never know.

Right now, the Nix need all the friends they can get.

(Please give me a few minutes to take a valium and don a crash helmet before I read the abusive, mocking, threatening responses this idea of enlisting the help of Wynton Rufer may engender!)

(corrected spelling of Wynton - just for HN!)

scribbler2008-12-17 09:17:45

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Fifa need to get off thier arse's and destroy Oceania football - gotta merge completly with AFC

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

scribbler wrote:

(Please give me a few minutes to take a valium and don a crash helmet before I read the abusive, mocking, threatening responses this idea of enlisting the help of Winton Rufer may engender!)

[/QUOTE]

The man is a numpty, but it's a good point... only objection ? It's spelt Wynton.

[QUOTE=Man_utd_fan]Fifa need to get off thier arse's and destroy Oceania football - gotta merge completly with AFC

This will NOT happen as long as Bin Hammen is making a play for the FIFA presidency.
Hard News2008-12-16 10:17:16

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Royal is right, there are a lot of advantages that we gain from being part of Asia that aren't easy. We quLIFY for loads of tournaments, costs are lower, for example they may consider the exposure of our junior players at FIFA tournments is better than having a NZ side in the competition. plus Asia would have to accept us (which isn't guaranteed) and Oceania would be finished. There's just so much more to consider than the Phoenix. It's a really complicated decision.

I think the Oceania vote is also a bit of a red herring. We don't control the votes or the confederation, I'd be surprised if we even have that much play, especially with the new guy at the helm.

Normo's coming home

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