Wellington Phoenix Men

Bad Brazilians

127 replies · 2,106 views
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Whenever a call doesn't go his way, Daniel just charges into some opposition player. He did that again on Friday.
 
I don't really like just grouping players together by nationality and making a judgement on them as a group. For instance - Smeltz can't be compared to Mulligan.
 
I do agree with the point that we are probably bringing in some players that maybe aren't better than local players. I'm not certain this is the case, but it seems at times foreign players are seen as better than ones in local players just because they are foreign. I'd be surprised if there wasn't players in New Zealand about as good as some of our signings. In saying that, Ifill is a tremendous signing. Similar to a lot of scottish clubs who have for a long time wasted money foreign rejects.
 
Costa hasn't got a chance to play professional football much, and may turn out to be a great player. Instead he is on the bench for Greenacre who will never be anything more than a workhorse who can do some basic things.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Thats one game,lets see if he can back it up.Yep when he plays like that he sure can make the team look good at times.Unfortunately he hasnt turned those sorts of games in on a consistent basis.Then again the same could be said for a few others.
In the past he has tended to drift in and out of games to much,when his mind is on your not wrong he can be one of our best. 

GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tommy_Smyth wrote:
What a joke of a topic. Daniel put in a number of quality balls in the box and was our second best player on the park (behind Ifill of course). He looked to me as one of the most committed, even tackling, and is connecting again with lochhead. If Daniel keeps playing to that so called poor standard, i will be very happy.
 
I was a bit concerned with Daniel's tackles and some of the options he took when on the ball.  But his workrate was good over the whole 90 mins and as Tommy has said he got back and defended.
 
It's pretty poor when the topic heading starts off with a gross generalisation ... based on TWO players' nationality (does this sound familiar)? 
 
Daniel might not have the skills of Leo or the consistent workrate of Paul Ifill, but I'd think you'd find it hard to find another player that had more heart for the club.
 
 

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
IBTL, some great posts in here but they all defend the same thing, Daniel played a great game in all areas of the pitch on Friday and deserves to start against the Tards.
You know we belong together...

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Junior82 wrote:
Tommy_Smyth wrote:
What a joke of a topic. Daniel put in a number of quality balls in the box and was our second best player on the park (behind Ifill of course). He looked to me as one of the most committed, even tackling, and is connecting again with lochhead. If Daniel keeps playing to that so called poor standard, i will be very happy.
 
 
It's pretty poor when the topic heading starts off with a gross generalisation ... based on TWO players' nationality (does this sound familiar)? 
 
 
 
Sorry but what are you trying to suggest here??
 
I was asking whether the two players, who happen to share a nationality, are good enough for the 'nix.  From what I have seen of both Daniel & Diego they are both at times skillfull players, fairly typical South American players, who at times lack the application required to play in the A League.  There is probably a phonebook sized list of South American players out there who have done fantastically well in their domestic league but have failed when moved to Europe or wherever, they just don't or can't or aren't given the chance to adapt to the different style of football required of them.
 
I was musing whether having some average journeyman players in the Phoenix team (albeit in this case Brazilian average journeymen players!) is where we should be going, or whether blooding some of our own young developing players would be better for the future of the club?
 
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oska wrote:
IBTL, some great posts in here but they all defend the same thing, Daniel played a great game in all areas of the pitch on Friday and deserves to start against the Tards.
 
I still thought he was dissapointing!!
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
irnbru14 - racist comment and poor football judgement IMHO

sad case. shame on you

Good game from Daniel Friday night. Not quite Premier league or godly status, but good enough for another Phoenix start next game.

Diego? No argument with you, other than nothing to do with being "Bazilian".
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
mjp2 wrote:
irnbru14 - racist comment and poor football judgement IMHO

sad case. shame on you

Good game from Daniel Friday night. Not quite Premier league or godly status, but good enough for another Phoenix start next game.

Diego? No argument with you, other than nothing to do with being "Bazilian".
 
Racist?  What a load of bollocks mate.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
OK. Thanks for the clarification.  Perhaps the topic should have been better worded: "Average journeymen imports or youth development?".  Not as PR savvy -but more accurate.
 
Blooding of youth players - well would be good and supposedly that was what the reserves team concept in the NZFC was about - may happen next season???
 
Most people here are keen to see Costa and Marco get some game time.
 

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Junior82 wrote:
OK. Thanks for the clarification.  Perhaps the topic should have been better worded: "Average journeymen imports or youth development?".  Not as PR savvy -but more accurate.
 
Blooding of youth players - well would be good and supposedly that was what the reserves team concept in the NZFC was about - may happen next season???
 
Most people here are keen to see Costa and Marco get some game time.
 
 
What is happenign with the reserves, I thought they were trying to get into one of the Aussie leagues, did that fall flat on its face??
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Junior82 wrote:
Most people here are keen to see Costa and Marco get some game time.


Well covered that Marco was meant to play but did a calf... not exactly something the club can control.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I was making a gross generalisation - not specific to this match!

 

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
irnbru14 wrote:
mjp2 wrote:
irnbru14 - racist comment and poor football judgement IMHO
sad case. shame on you
Good game from Daniel Friday night. Not quite Premier league or godly status, but good enough for another Phoenix start next game.
Diego? No argument with you, other than nothing to do with being "Bazilian".
 
Racist?  What a load of bollocks mate.

"Bad brazilians" = arguably derogatory racist generalisation, particularly given most posters consider daniel had a good game, so it's hard to see where you were coming from.  but I'll take your word it wasn't intended that way and i might have responded less acusingly

"Brazilian Superstars".  I'm not sure they'd claim to be that.  They were offered a contract by the club, neither has the marque position, it's vacant, and neither has consistently (yet) made the starting side, so right now they are squad members competing for a starting place same as the rest.  daniel did a good job on friday in my opinion, Diego hasnt shown us anything positive but has past playmaking form in a champion side.  maybe he'll not work out for us, but he wasn't signed for nothing.
mjp22009-09-06 23:49:38
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
 
mjp2 wrote:
irnbru14 wrote:
mjp2 wrote:
irnbru14 - racist comment and poor football judgement IMHO
sad case. shame on you
Good game from Daniel Friday night. Not quite Premier league or godly status, but good enough for another Phoenix start next game.
Diego? No argument with you, other than nothing to do with being "Bazilian".
 
Racist?  What a load of bollocks mate.

"Bad brazilians" = arguably derogatory racist generalisation, particularly given most posters consider daniel had a good game, so it's hard to see where you were coming from.  but I'll take your word it wasn't intended that way and i might have responded less acusingly

"Brazilian Superstars".  I'm not sure they'd claim to be that.  They were offered a contract by the club, neither has the marque position, it's vacant, and neither has consistently (yet) made the starting side, so right now they are squad members competing for a starting place same as the rest.  daniel did a good job on friday in my opinion, Diego hasnt shown us anything positive but has past playmaking form in a champion side.  maybe he'll not work out for us, but he wasn't signed for nothing.
 
All for a bad pun and lame gag really, nevermind...
 
Anyway, I still think there is a bit of a haze with some where Daniel is concerned, he's a fans favourite and is given a lot more leeway than some players in the team, I spent a very frustrating 2nd half mostly shouting a combination of encouragement and venting my frustration at him as he kept slowing our build up play right down and running into trouble and not challenging for the ball and giving it away.
 
Ricki has actually signed some good players who have moved our team up a level (in Ifill, Lia & Greenacre) and I think its time for Daniel to  prove that he can do it consistantly and step his game up to the level of some of those now around him.  If he can't then thanks but its time to move him on.
 
I really hope he does, I also hope Diego proves a good signing, I'm just not convinced about either...
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
If you think about where he often slowed down (on the wing, alongside the box or near the corner thereof), it becomes apparent that a big part of the issue is the lack of pace from the rest of the team in getting into the area. Daniel was often part of fast breaks, and you can't go to the byline and put in a cross if no one is there to get onto it.

He's certainly not so slow that he can't get to the byline, in fact he got there several times the other night.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Gee irnbru14, I thought you were a bit of a troll until your last post, what's stopping you?

Daniel did slow down a bit in the second half only because he was in the right place before most others (except for Ifill) had reacted and got to the goal byline really for the players to get though. He cross enough time and there was a lack speed on the reciever rather than him. The whole team was slower than he was and he waited and created and produced some attacking combinations, including having to produce the non-goal chance for Paul Ifill in the later second half. Considering that it is his first full game since his injury early last season and he was our 2nd/3rd best player on Friday night, things can only get better. Remember Ifill needed 3/4 games himself to get match fitness before we got to do what he did on Friday and Daniel just finished the one game plus 10 minutes the other week.

Both Deigo and Daniel needs more gametime like everyone else, but without reserve games, it is a painful problem to have and is large barrier to get our best player at top match fitness. A large disadvantage.AllWhitebelievr2009-09-07 01:38:32
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
As usual, AWB puts it better than almost any other rational fourumite can.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
AllWhitebelievr wrote:
Gee irnbru14, I thought you were a bit of a troll until your last post, what's stopping you?

Daniel did slow down a bit in the second half only because he was in the right place before most others (except for Ifill) had reacted and got to the goal byline really for the players to get though. He cross enough time and there was a lack speed on the reciever rather than him. The whole team was slower than he was and he waited and created and produced some attacking combinations, including having to produce the non-goal chance for Paul Ifill in the later second half. Considering that it is his first full game since his injury early last season and he was our 2nd/3rd best player on Friday night, things can only get better. Remember Ifill needed 3/4 games himself to get match fitness before we got to do what he did on Friday and Daniel just finished the one game plus 10 minutes the other week.

Both Deigo and Daniel needs more gametime like everyone else, but without reserve games, it is a painful problem to have and is large barrier to get our best player at top match fitness. A large disadvantage.
 
I saw a lot of times where he recieved the ball and should have been much quicker releasing it, had an option to pass and move and didn't take it and instead ran into trouble, assuming we are trying to play as we did for the first goal, quick break out and quick incisive passing of the ball, then I think there were a few such moves that broke down as soon as he got the ball and dilly dallied on it.
 
Interesting to see if Ricki does give him game time, we have a lot of players now looking for a start in those attacking positions, so will he and Diego get game time or will Ricki keep on rotating them around??
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Baiter wrote:
I'm sorry, but what a crock.We play Daniel to put in balls like the one Greenacre scored from the other week.� We start a keeper and 6 players every week who's job it is to win 50/50 challenges.� Do people say 'oh, that Cristiano Ronaldo, he's sh*t, never makes a challenge' ?� No because it's not his job.� He may be a money-hungry, diving, preening w**ker but Ronaldo's job is to be on the ball and pull out a bit of magic, not to win it by diving in studs up.There are certainly flaws in Daniel's game, but that isn't something he should be judged on.� He's a good quality attacking A-League player when his mind is on the job and it was on Friday night, and to assert that Hearfield who came on in the 83rd minute added more to the game is just ridiculous.� By your measurements Leo must be sh*t as well, as diving in to a 50/50 challenge isn't exactly in his repetoire either.


Couldn't agree more, OP is trying to create an argument that simply isn't there.

To say Daniel shouldn't be starting because he "doesn't win 50/50 challenges" is ridiculous and combined with bertos he's the leading the way in delivering quality ball into Greenie/Ifill/Brown(ha!). Also to say he doesn't play with heart is just laughable.....

Can we stop complaining for the sake of it please?
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Bring Back FELIPE!  
 
Daniel = Rocking
Diego = Shocking
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This seems to be a pointless discussion. Everyone who saw Daniel in season 1 knows what he is capable of doing. He hasnt had enough game time recently but once he gets more games under his belt he can cause real worry for opposing teams, especially with his delivery into the box.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
mjp2 wrote:


"Bad brazilians" = arguably derogatory racist generalisation.


'Brazilian' is not a race, it's a nationality (it's not even an ethnicity).

'Xenophobic' would have been more appropriate than 'racist'.

And that's all I have to say on this.el grapadura2009-09-07 09:43:54
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Colvinator wrote:
Whenever a call doesn't go his way, Daniel just charges into some opposition player. He did that again on Friday.
 
I don't really like just grouping players together by nationality and making a judgement on them as a group. For instance - Smeltz can't be compared to Mulligan.
 
I do agree with the point that we are probably bringing in some players that maybe aren't better than local players. I'm not certain this is the case, but it seems at times foreign players are seen as better than ones in local players just because they are foreign. I'd be surprised if there wasn't players in New Zealand about as good as some of our signings. In saying that, Ifill is a tremendous signing. Similar to a lot of scottish clubs who have for a long time wasted money foreign rejects.
 
Costa hasn't got a chance to play professional football much, and may turn out to be a great player. Instead he is on the bench for Greenacre who will never be anything more than a workhorse who can do some basic things.
 
Greenacre has proven goalscoring ability and reference to him as a workhorse is a tad unfair and IF Costa is to become a great player he will have to start to justify to the coaching staff that he is a better bet than what is current, also Costa is not a kid anymore and time is running out for him to impress the coaches at the nix

" If you only have a hammer you tend to see every problem as a nail" - maslow

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
mjp2 wrote:


"Bad brazilians" = arguably derogatory racist generalisation.


'Brazilian' is not a race, it's a nationality (it's not even an ethnicity).

'Xenophobic' would have been more appropriate than 'racist'.

And that's all I have to say on this.
 
My dictionary says -
Xenophobia: having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign.
 
Don't think I've seen fear or hatred in this thread. 
 
No place for either on this forum, but the race card is an easy card to flash. And not always helpful. 
 
People who use it should do so with extreme caution. And that's all I have to say.
 
Offered in the interests of a civilised discussion.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
scribbler wrote:
Offered in the interests of a civilised discussion.


On here ?  Have you seen this place in the last two days ?

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
scribbler wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
mjp2 wrote:
"Bad brazilians" = arguably derogatory racist generalisation.
'Brazilian' is not a race, it's a nationality (it's not even an ethnicity). 'Xenophobic' would have been more appropriate than 'racist'. And that's all I have to say on this.




�

My dictionary says -

Xenophobia: having abnormal fear or hatred of the strange or foreign.

�

Don't think I've seen fear or hatred in this thread.�

�

No place for either on this forum, but�the race card is an easy card to flash.�And not always helpful.�

�

People who use it�should do so with extreme caution. And that's all I have to say.

�

Offered in the�interests of a civilised discussion.


Not suggesting I believe the original comments were xenophobic, just stated that if someone did perceive them as derogatory to Brazilians, the correct term would be xenophobic rather than racist.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

While I thought Daniel was ok, I can kind of see what irnbru is saying here.

We do tend to 'slow things down' a bit too much, and I think this was one of the main problems on Friday. Too much passing it around but with NO real urgency to worry the opposing defence.
 
I was watching some of the NQF game on Saturday, and I noticed that they had quite a number of times where their left and right sided players were bombing down the flanks to byline and getting crosses in - we need to do more of that, and we also need to have more than 1-2 players getting forward when in these positions as well!
 
The players are slow to react at times and get up and support the forwards, or forward (singular) as it seems to be most of the time. As a result, if it misses Greenacre, 9 times out of 10 the chance is lost.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
If we play the ball, on the deck, at pace as we attack the opposition then we are a much more dangerous team and a much better team to watch, I have seen in snatches this and last season how damned good we can actually be when we attack like this, however when we slow it down or resort to lobbing long balls at Greenacre we are ineffectual. 
 
If we want to play an exciting brand of quick passing football then all of our players need to be able to pass and move the ball accordingly, slowing it down allows the opposition to regroup, and we are a team at our best with Bertos and Ifill breaking quickly and attacking at pace.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Steve-O wrote:
 
I was watching some of the NQF game on Saturday, and I noticed that they had quite a number of times where their left and right sided players were bombing down the flanks to byline and getting crosses in - we need to do more of that, and we also need to have more than 1-2 players getting forward when in these positions as well!
 
Personally I wouldn't take footballing lessons from a team at the bottom of the table with no wins but that's just me.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
joachim wrote:
Steve-O wrote:
 
I was watching some of the NQF game on Saturday, and I noticed that they had quite a number of times where their left and right sided players were bombing down the flanks to byline and getting crosses in - we need to do more of that, and we also need to have more than 1-2 players getting forward when in these positions as well!
 
Personally I wouldn't take footballing lessons from a team at the bottom of the table with no wins but that's just me.
 
They are VERY unfortunate not to have won their last 2 games.
 
My point is that they looked dangerous going forward, and more so than we did on Friday at times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I thought Daniel had a reasonably good game, considering it was his first start in almost a season he can only improve from there.

I gave him a , whats with all the angst here? Everyone thinks the world is ending
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
homer_simpson wrote:
I thought Daniel had a reasonably good game, considering it was his first start in almost a season he can only improve from there.

I gave him a , whats with all the angst here? Everyone thinks the world is ending
 
Nope, just giving our honest assessments on the team and the match. If anything, it is the people defending the team and Ricki who are making more of it than perhaps need be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I fail to see though why Daniel was so bad in your eyes?  He was one of the best on the park in my opinion (Obviously Ifill is well above everyone there though) homer_simpson2009-09-07 14:00:54
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
homer_simpson wrote:
I fail to see though why Daniel was so bad in your eyes?  He was one of the best on the park in my opinion (Obviously Ifill is well above everyone there though)
 
You're asking the wrong person, I didn't say Daniel was bad (see my first post on this thread a couple of hours ago).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Junior82 wrote:
Most people here are keen to see Costa and Marco get some game time.


Well covered that Marco was meant to play but did a calf... not exactly something the club can control.
 
Unless of course we get a new owner in the name of Flavio Briatore, then Marco might have deliberately pulled his calf muscle. Ooooppssss. (Allegedly of course)
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
irnbru14 wrote:
 
Well its been a while since I've seen a professional footballer wimp out of so many 50/50 challenges in the one game...
Lei Lei G** has only been gone for about 8 months then there was Elrich before him   Daniel was the most fouled player in The A-league in the Nix 1st season, that may have something to do with it, but he's not expected to be the "enforcer" or heavy tackler is he ?
 he's  our creativity (one of them) the heavy tackles should come from Brown or Mckain or our back 4 (imo)
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
giddyup wrote:
irnbru14 wrote:
 
Well its been a while since I've seen a professional footballer wimp out of so many 50/50 challenges in the one game...
Lei Lei G** has only been gone for about 8 months then there was Elrich before him   Daniel was the most fouled player in The A-league in the Nix 1st season, that may have something to do with it, but he's not expected to be the "enforcer" or heavy tackler is he ?
 he's  our creativity (one of them) the heavy tackles should come from Brown or Mckain or our back 4 (imo)
 
Or Vinnie Lia, who got in some beauties on Friday night.
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
giddyup wrote:
irnbru14 wrote:
 
Well its been a while since I've seen a professional footballer wimp out of so many 50/50 challenges in the one game...
Lei Lei G** has only been gone for about 8 months then there was Elrich before him   Daniel was the most fouled player in The A-league in the Nix 1st season, that may have something to do with it, but he's not expected to be the "enforcer" or heavy tackler is he ?
 he's  our creativity (one of them) the heavy tackles should come from Brown or Mckain or our back 4 (imo)
 
Oh well thats ok then if he doesn't have to make any tackles, I just hope Brown or McKain or whoever are on hand to tackle the nearest player to Daniel as he stands and watches them waiting for them to give him the ball to be creative...
irnbru142009-09-07 22:00:00
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Well in this game, Daniel made plenty of tackles, tracked back, switched wings, set up goal scoring opportunities and lasted the entire 90 minutes. He is an Attacking Midielder, that is how he is meant to play. Brown and McKain are defensive midfielders and that is their job.
 
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Lonegunmen wrote:
Well in this game, Daniel made plenty of tackles, tracked back, switched wings, set up goal scoring opportunities and lasted the entire 90 minutes. He is an Attacking Midielder, that is how he is meant to play. Brown and McKain are defensive midfielders and that is their job.
 
Ok, that website is just plain stalker scarey  
Nice guy, good player. Has his moments of briziliance and also woefulness. Overall I think he has been the best of our Brazilians (not that that would be difficult) and can definatley see his adaption to the NZ/Ausie game. He has become much more settled in the league and, as such, a much more influencial player.

Its no longer a problem.

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