Wellington Phoenix Men

Coaching Angst - ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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about 13 years ago · edited about 13 years ago · History

Totally agree with this:

Tunnel Vision wrote:

Yip a very good signing, and I being one that has just been slagging off his recruitment ability I'll admit he has done well here.

But a good signing for next year shouldn't take away attention to the fact we started the year with an extremely weak midfield which most coaches would have known was going to cause a lot of issues. And overall our squad was never going to be able to compete with the top teams. Yes people were saying it was our best squad put together, but over in Australia we were picked to be the wooden spoon.

Also doesnt change the fact that this season we have only won 5 games out of 20. And not only have we been losing, but losing badly.

Carlos won't change Mr Herbert lack of ability at tactic's especially adapting his tactic's in the middle of the game.

Ricki Herbert's biggest strength was he created an environment that gave the team high moral. Seems like this year his biggest strength has let him down some what. Yes some of it might have been out of his control, but all clubs have these issues and coaches need to get past it.

I am very much in the camp Herbert has to go, and sooner the better. But he will remain till the end of the season, and for me to change camps the team is going to need to show a remarkable improvement. Not neccasirly making play offs, but we are certainly going to need to push for play offs.

We have Brisbane away this week. This is a team sitting sitting one point above us. If we lose this I would have to think our chances of making the play offs is over. And if we get completely outplayed and are on the end of another one sided result (which I can see happening) then I see little chance of Herbert changing my opinion. But at the end of the day what does my opinion count for really?

[/quote]
And this:

[quote=Tunnel Vision]

If we got a new coach and we came tenth I still wouldn't say sacking Herbert was a mistake. We just obviosuly didn't find the right replacement and need to keep looking. A lot of club's go through a number of managers until they find the right one. They just try and make sure they get it right sooner rather than later. There is always the risk that we might do worse, but if you never maker changes how can you ever improve?

Plus finishing tenth aint going to be much worse than where we will most likely end up this year.


One swallow does not make a summer (or a freaky sex party for that matter)

*edit: I should mention though that this signing has made me change my tune about Welnix a bit. Great to see them willing to make a move like this!

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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about 13 years ago

BarryZuckerkorn wrote:

Totally agree with this:

Tunnel Vision wrote:

Yip a very good signing, and I being one that has just been slagging off his recruitment ability I'll admit he has done well here.

But a good signing for next year shouldn't take away attention to the fact we started the year with an extremely weak midfield which most coaches would have known was going to cause a lot of issues. And overall our squad was never going to be able to compete with the top teams. Yes people were saying it was our best squad put together, but over in Australia we were picked to be the wooden spoon.

Also doesnt change the fact that this season we have only won 5 games out of 20. And not only have we been losing, but losing badly.

Carlos won't change Mr Herbert lack of ability at tactic's especially adapting his tactic's in the middle of the game.

Ricki Herbert's biggest strength was he created an environment that gave the team high moral. Seems like this year his biggest strength has let him down some what. Yes some of it might have been out of his control, but all clubs have these issues and coaches need to get past it.

I am very much in the camp Herbert has to go, and sooner the better. But he will remain till the end of the season, and for me to change camps the team is going to need to show a remarkable improvement. Not neccasirly making play offs, but we are certainly going to need to push for play offs.

We have Brisbane away this week. This is a team sitting sitting one point above us. If we lose this I would have to think our chances of making the play offs is over. And if we get completely outplayed and are on the end of another one sided result (which I can see happening) then I see little chance of Herbert changing my opinion. But at the end of the day what does my opinion count for really?

[/quote]
And this:

[quote=Tunnel Vision]

If we got a new coach and we came tenth I still wouldn't say sacking Herbert was a mistake. We just obviosuly didn't find the right replacement and need to keep looking. A lot of club's go through a number of managers until they find the right one. They just try and make sure they get it right sooner rather than later. There is always the risk that we might do worse, but if you never maker changes how can you ever improve?

Plus finishing tenth aint going to be much worse than where we will most likely end up this year.


One swallow does not make a summer (or a freaky sex party for that matter)

*edit: I should mention though that this signing has made me change my tune about Welnix a bit. Great to see them willing to make a move like this!

No, but it's a bloody good start !


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about 13 years ago · edited about 13 years ago · History

Oh yeah, no doubt. But it's also not the "start". I seem to recall Ricki being involved in recruiting for quite a few years now so as awesome as this signing is we shouldn't forget the history of other signings :P

I personally don't think it's anywhere near as easy for a club based in Wellington with no chance of ever playing in the ACL or CWC or whatever, operating on the budget we are on, to go out and pick up quality foreign players as some people seem to think it is. And we have picked up some good players over the years for sure, they haven't all been duds obviously!

 I just don't think that signing of Hernandez by itself can be taken as any great signifier of anything. There's lots of other stuff going on with Ricki's role at the moment and getting one quality player for next season doesn't mitigate all the other issues (player motivation, tactical shortcomings, etc). Given our recent approach we can't even be sure that Hernandez will see much ball because we are incapable of making connecting passes from our defenders and deeper mids to get them to a AM/no. 10 style player to create chances for a ball-playing striker (like Stein).

Just to reiterate: I am stoked about signing Hernandez! But I'm not about to say that this changes everything because it doesn't. It does, however, create hope that next season might be different. That is all.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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about 13 years ago


I am happy about the Hernadaez signing for next season, but that's all. Happy to be proved wrong tonight (as I have been for last 3 months) but Herbert is not capable of taking the Phoenix to the level on display last night when WSW beat Mel Victory. Herbert's side look so second division. Just not on the same planet now.    

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about 13 years ago

Well after the Hernandez hysteria, things back to normal tonight with another away defeat, this time to a Brisbane side who have been to Thailand and back this week, and are the worst Brisbane team in the past 3-4 years.

Total crap. Dressing room is lost IMO and I reiterate that change is required ASAP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

Tbh it's laughable RH is still here.



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about 13 years ago · edited about 13 years ago · History

 I still haven't seen any evidence that the dressing room is lost, but... let's ask this. Is there anyone here who is part of the KEEP RICKI brigade? As far as we can see, there's the "a new coach might be good, or it might make things worse" brigade (including me) and the Sack Ricki brigade (the increasing majority).

Honestly, my best arguments for Ricki staying at the moment would be (a) he seems to have a good relationship with Carlos Hernandez; (b) it will evoke screams of violent rage from most of this forum, which will be funny to watch for a while.


Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 13 years ago

With the Hurricanes on next Saturday we are looking at a very low crowd on Sunday. 

Welnix seem comfortable to wait for this 'review', can't see that being a long job for someone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

Doloras wrote:

 I still haven't seen any evidence that the dressing room is lost, but... let's ask this. Is there anyone here who is part of the KEEP RICKI brigade? As far as we can see, there's the "a new coach might be good, or it might make things worse" brigade (including me) and the Sack Ricki brigade (the increasing majority).


I'm curious to know how a new coach could make our situation any worse? I didn't think there was worse than our current situation?
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about 13 years ago

Breaking news


Ricki signs a 10 year contract extension.



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about 13 years ago

Doloras wrote:

 I still haven't seen any evidence that the dressing room is lost, but... let's ask this. Is there anyone here who is part of the KEEP RICKI brigade? As far as we can see, there's the "a new coach might be good, or it might make things worse" brigade (including me) and the Sack Ricki brigade (the increasing majority).

Honestly, my best arguments for Ricki staying at the moment would be (a) he seems to have a good relationship with Carlos Hernandez; (b) it will evoke screams of violent rage from most of this forum, which will be funny to watch for a while.


Is the evidence not there in the form of constant defeats, lack of confidence, lack of belief, lack of spirit, lack of fight, lack of organisation, lack of shaking Ifill's hand?

Where is the evidence that the dressing room is not lost?

And please explain how a new coach could do worse given we are rock bottom of the league?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

Very poor ...again.    Time for Ricki to leave, team morale gone totally, senior players look disinterested. I do wonder about the training as it seems that we cannot string together more than a couple of passes and don't seem to be able to anticipate a pass from a colleague. Paul Ifill... shouldnt have played

Vince Lia...poor, Tony Lochead...even worse, ben Sigmund..very clumsy

however on a plus note I thought that Stein has a decent go when he came on...and I will be at the next games!!

" If you only have a hammer you tend to see every problem as a nail" - maslow

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about 13 years ago · edited about 13 years ago · History

Nommag wrote:

I'm curious to know how a new coach could make our situation any worse?


Two words: Miron Bleiberg.
Actually, here's another two words: Declan Edge.

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 13 years ago

Steve-O wrote:

Is the evidence not there in the form of constant defeats, lack of confidence, lack of belief, lack of spirit, lack of fight, lack of organisation, lack of shaking Ifill's hand?

Where is the evidence that the dressing room is not lost?



Wow. Where is the evidence that Ricki ISN'T actually a Martian? Come on, you can't prove a negative.

My theory has been that the dressing room has been lost, all right, but lost to Welnix, not to Ricki.

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 13 years ago

i'm not convinced that we have the budget or the resources to attract a coach of sufficient quality to replace RH - I feel like he has been undermined and told to coach the team in a style that isn't his and that has backfired massively as we all know.  

That said i'm not sure RH has anything more to offer - but while we search for someone who can take us to the next level we might end up sinking to all new lows (yes we can be worse than what we are at the moment).

Best course of action for me is to keep RH to the end of the season - and then appoint someone as soon as possible for next season and give him financial backing  - if the new guy wants to release players who are on contracts then stump up with the money and pay them out so he can run the team his way.   If we are not going back the new coach with $$ or let him rebuild from scratch then you may as well leave RH there.

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about 13 years ago

 


I'm curious to know how a new coach could make our situation any worse?

[/quote]

Two words: Miron Bleiberg.
.
[/quote]

And for all the conspiracy theorists out there....Miron was at the game!!!

" If you only have a hammer you tend to see every problem as a nail" - maslow

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about 13 years ago

 Yeah, I noticed. But I wondered whether he was after the Nix job or the Roar job.


Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 13 years ago

Doloras wrote:

Nommag wrote:

I'm curious to know how a new coach could make our situation any worse?


Two words: Miron Bleiberg.
Actually, here's another two words: Declan Edge.

They can either do the same as or better. I'm having trouble understanding your angle, I don't know how a different coach could achieve worse than bottom of the table with a good thumbing every couple of weeks.
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about 13 years ago

Id take the steam off Miron's turd as a coach over Ricki.


















ps Sack Ricki

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about 13 years ago · edited about 13 years ago · History

Doloras wrote:

Steve-O wrote:

Is the evidence not there in the form of constant defeats, lack of confidence, lack of belief, lack of spirit, lack of fight, lack of organisation, lack of shaking Ifill's hand?

Where is the evidence that the dressing room is not lost?



Wow. Where is the evidence that Ricki ISN'T actually a Martian? Come on, you can't prove a negative.

My theory has been that the dressing room has been lost, all right, but lost to Welnix, not to Ricki.


I don't think Welnix have done us many favours, but I disagree on Ricki. He's backed Welnix in the press so wouldn't the players see him as aligned with them anyway? 

It appears to me that the players have stopped playing for him. They don't seem motivated and just are generally clueless all over the park.

I don't know what your fear of losing Ricki is. 

Changes of coach in this league this season have been positive for the teams involved. For some reason we think we know better than everyone else and will wait until the end of the season. And what do you know, we're the ones that are bottom of the league and the worst team to watch in the league.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

thats because the team has NEVER been good enough while some of the other teams (perth for example) were minutes away from winning it last year with a pretty simular squad - you couldn't expect anything but less stability if there was a new coach for the rest of the season.  

You might get 1 win from a coaching change (might) but is that worth it?

I for one don't believe in interim coaches, sack one when you have a new one lined up - otherwise let it be...

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about 13 years ago

 And could we do any worse if we made all the players wear green jockstraps for luck? No? Then let's do it!!!

"Doing something" for the sake of "doing something" doesn't have good results. We've started changing the way the Nix play. If we are to have a new coach next season, he'll have to be one which builds on that, rather than throwing it all away and starting from scratch. Of course, I'm sure some of you would want to start from scratch - like Danny Hay who's angry at Hernandez being signed.


Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 13 years ago

chopah wrote:

thats because the team has NEVER been good enough while some of the other teams (perth for example) were minutes away from winning it last year with a pretty simular squad - you couldn't expect anything but less stability if there was a new coach for the rest of the season.  

You might get 1 win from a coaching change (might) but is that worth it?

I for one don't believe in interim coaches, sack one when you have a new one lined up - otherwise let it be...


We weren't far off beating that same Perth team in the finals though were we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

Steve-O wrote:

Changes of coach in this league this season have been positive for the teams involved.



Yep, which was why there was a MULVEY OUT banner at the game tonight.

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 13 years ago

Doloras wrote:

 And could we do any worse if we made all the players wear green jockstraps for luck? No? Then let's do it!!!

"Doing something" for the sake of "doing something" doesn't have good results. We've started changing the way the Nix play. If we are to have a new coach next season, he'll have to be one which builds on that, rather than throwing it all away and starting from scratch. Of course, I'm sure some of you would want to start from scratch - like Danny Hay who's angry at Hernandez being signed.


It is not change for the sake of change! It is change because we are an absolute shambles and Ricki's had 6 years at it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

Doloras wrote:

Steve-O wrote:

Changes of coach in this league this season have been positive for the teams involved.



Yep, which was why there was a MULVEY OUT banner at the game tonight.


And they're still beating us...

Ricki Out banner needed for us.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

yep but i am sure you will agree that we have always batted above our weight - and this year in my opinion as a team they have delivered pretty much what i would expect from them - when i look at the teams and compare strength we are a bottom team - that in itself is a blight on Ricki of course but i just don't see any point unless there is a coach already lined up in sacking him now.  

Who are we going to get to look after the team in the interim if we sack ricki tomorrow - Greenacre? Emblem? Hay?  Fallon?


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about 13 years ago

chopah wrote:

yep but i am sure you will agree that we have always batted above our weight - and this year in my opinion as a team they have delivered pretty much what i would expect from them - when i look at the teams and compare strength we are a bottom team - that in itself is a blight on Ricki of course but i just don't see any point unless there is a coach already lined up in sacking him now.  

Who are we going to get to look after the team in the interim if we sack ricki tomorrow - Greenacre? Emblem? Hay?  Fallon?



None of those mentioned are good enough.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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about 13 years ago

Leggy wrote:

chopah wrote:

yep but i am sure you will agree that we have always batted above our weight - and this year in my opinion as a team they have delivered pretty much what i would expect from them - when i look at the teams and compare strength we are a bottom team - that in itself is a blight on Ricki of course but i just don't see any point unless there is a coach already lined up in sacking him now.  

Who are we going to get to look after the team in the interim if we sack ricki tomorrow - Greenacre? Emblem? Hay?  Fallon?



None of those mentioned are good enough.

exactly - if we have a new coach who is keen and is what we are looking for, appoint him now - if we don't then wait to the end of the season and go through a thorough process.
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about 13 years ago

chopah wrote:

Leggy wrote:

chopah wrote:

yep but i am sure you will agree that we have always batted above our weight - and this year in my opinion as a team they have delivered pretty much what i would expect from them - when i look at the teams and compare strength we are a bottom team - that in itself is a blight on Ricki of course but i just don't see any point unless there is a coach already lined up in sacking him now.  

Who are we going to get to look after the team in the interim if we sack ricki tomorrow - Greenacre? Emblem? Hay?  Fallon?



None of those mentioned are good enough.

exactly - if we have a new coach who is keen and is what we are looking for, appoint him now - if we don't then wait to the end of the season and go through a thorough process.


We should be looking now to avoid any nonsense excuses about a new coach not having long enough in pre season etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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about 13 years ago

yep agreed - look now but if you don't find one before the end of the season i think we just keep RH there - end of the season wave him goodbye, wish him all the best etc.  Infact he will probably resign anyway.

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about 13 years ago

Some names.... to ponder ... 

Ante Milicic

Paul Okon 

Socceroo/ Mariner / Whangarei

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about 13 years ago

Steve-O wrote:

Doloras wrote:

 And could we do any worse if we made all the players wear green jockstraps for luck? No? Then let's do it!!!

"Doing something" for the sake of "doing something" doesn't have good results. We've started changing the way the Nix play. If we are to have a new coach next season, he'll have to be one which builds on that, rather than throwing it all away and starting from scratch. Of course, I'm sure some of you would want to start from scratch - like Danny Hay who's angry at Hernandez being signed.


It is not change for the sake of change! It is change because we are an absolute shambles and Ricki's had 6 years at it!


+1 enough of the defence for Ricki. Once he wins games I might change my thoughts on him might change but until then, bye ricki

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about 13 years ago

Doloras wrote:

 And could we do any worse if we made all the players wear green jockstraps for luck? No? Then let's do it!!!

"Doing something" for the sake of "doing something" doesn't have good results. We've started changing the way the Nix play. If we are to have a new coach next season, he'll have to be one which builds on that, rather than throwing it all away and starting from scratch. Of course, I'm sure some of you would want to start from scratch - like Danny Hay who's angry at Hernandez being signed.


If he is only just building a squad now to get better than mediocre results, what has he been doing for the last few years? This has been coming for years with players getting older and retiring. Herbert has had his chance.
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about 13 years ago · edited about 13 years ago · History

I don't even know why we are still debating this - there is literally no-one in NZ other than in the Phoenix boardroom that thinks Herbert should keep his job


as for this idea that we are building something - every part of our team is failing, defence, midfield and attack.  We've conceded twice as many goals as we've scored, please enlighten me, what are we building and what are we building on?

Normo's coming home

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about 13 years ago

chopah wrote:

yep agreed - look now but if you don't find one before the end of the season i think we just keep RH there - end of the season wave him goodbye, wish him all the best etc.  Infact he will probably resign anyway.


wouldn't wave him goodbye
I think with his international network he would be a good scout for the club
and if he's still got the AWs job then a reduced top-up on that salary for a reduced role at the Nix will suit him
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about 13 years ago

mjp2 wrote:

chopah wrote:

yep agreed - look now but if you don't find one before the end of the season i think we just keep RH there - end of the season wave him goodbye, wish him all the best etc.  Infact he will probably resign anyway.


wouldn't wave him goodbye
I think with his international network he would be a good scout for the club
and if he's still got the AWs job then a reduced top-up on that salary for a reduced role at the Nix will suit him


seriously what international contacts are you talking about?  what great scouting are you referring to?  we clearly get the second choice of players offered to other a-league clubs by agents and passed on.  

Normo's coming home

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about 13 years ago · edited about 13 years ago · History

james dean wrote:

mjp2 wrote:

chopah wrote:

yep agreed - look now but if you don't find one before the end of the season i think we just keep RH there - end of the season wave him goodbye, wish him all the best etc.  Infact he will probably resign anyway.


wouldn't wave him goodbye
I think with his international network he would be a good scout for the club
and if he's still got the AWs job then a reduced top-up on that salary for a reduced role at the Nix will suit him


seriously what international contacts are you talking about?  what great scouting are you referring to?  we clearly get the second choice of players offered to other a-league clubs by agents and passed on.  


Seriously, you think he has developed no international contacts in his time as AWs coach, through FIFA and in and liaising with NZ footballers at overseas clubs? 
With a full-time Nix job and the AWs job I don't think he has been proactive enough in his player hunting for Nix.  In a lesser role and with more time he may be a lot more effective at that.  For all that I am not a great fan of Ricki as a coach, I don't think you lightly throw away some-one with his experience and doubtless contacts.  Soup the title up to Director of Football and give him a few other useful contributions to make at the club to salvage his pride and away you go.
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about 13 years ago

It's a moot point anyway because we're not going to employ our old coach as a scout whatever you think of his "contacts".  IN fact we're a long way away from ever employing anyone as a scout


But to answer your question, actually I don't think he has a lot of international contacts that we can leverage to get players.  Our overseas recruitment has been absolutely terrible!  You have to judge people on results, you can't continually say things like if he had more time he would have done better, or if he had less on his plate - that's just making excuses for him

Normo's coming home

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about 13 years ago

Midfielder wrote:

Some names.... to ponder ... 

Ante Milicic

Paul Okon 


Thanks Midfielder....either those guys look like they could be good as head Nix coach. Okon tied up with the Oz under 20's though
Two interesting columns in the Sydney Morning Herald   smh.com.au/a-league
Both about coaching and football standards in the A-League....a couple of comments about Herbert. But basically saying the standard of play in the comp has moved forward at such a pace that some coaches have been left behind(Herbert )
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