Wellington Phoenix Men

Phoenix and the Asian Champions League

91 replies · 6,204 views
over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:

Everyone said only NZFC teams would ever win it once Australia left Oceania and look what happened this year. Upsets happen every now and then. Nothing is a formality.


Yeah, but A-League -> daylight -> NZFC.

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Doloras wrote:
Buffon II wrote:

Everyone said only NZFC teams would ever win it once Australia left Oceania and look what happened this year. Upsets happen every now and then. Nothing is a formality.


Yeah, but A-League -> daylight -> NZFC.


The top NZFC teams (Akl and Waitak) could push and have pushed the best A-League teams in past years. No reason they couldn't win one now and again.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
im against us competing in the OCL,unless sides are performing so bad in the cwc that fifa threaten to pull oceania out of it. ACFC quietened fifa on that front. pretty sh*te we cant participate in acl,see no reason why we cant as long as we meet the player requirements for the competition.

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Ard Righ wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I am not going to say the Phoenix should play in the OFC. Like News said, the Phoenix are an Australian football club.

The problem is, NZ Football won't make the hard decision to move to Asia.

And yes, I do believe the All Whites, Football Ferns, and the youth teams should also play through Asia too.

The problem is lack of long-term vision in NZ Football IMO.


I agree with this post 100%.

And I also printed #27 on my Nix shirt.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I just don't understand it. We're all trying to grow the same game and these guys are being either straight out pricks or complete idiots.

Yet I thought Fifa was on our side? I don't get it... corrupt bs.Michael2010-07-28 17:54:20
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
as someone said,how can we be frozen out of both? we are either one or the other surely. we should be allowed into the ACL as long as we can field a side that is within the player requirements,if that means kiwis count as imports then fine. but to freeze us out completely makes no sense.

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Ard Righ wrote:
   The problem is, NZ Football won't make the hard decision to move to Asia.

And yes, I do believe the All Whites, Football Ferns, and the youth teams should also play through Asia too.

The problem is lack of long-term vision in NZ Football IMO.


Much, much more complicated than this.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SC03 wrote:
Ard Righ wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I am not going to say the Phoenix should play in the OFC. Like News said, the Phoenix are an Australian football club.

The problem is, NZ Football won't make the hard decision to move to Asia.

And yes, I do believe the All Whites, Football Ferns, and the youth teams should also play through Asia too.

The problem is lack of long-term vision in NZ Football IMO.


I agree with this post 100%.

And I also printed #27 on my Nix shirt.
 
Why do people ignore the benefits that we get through playing in Oceania?  There are still plenty of positivies that come from being a big fish in a small pond.
 
Let's look at the Australia situation, has their international game developed since moving to Asia?  It's not the cure all that some people think

Normo's coming home

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
Ard Righ wrote:
Don't get me wrong, I am not going to say the Phoenix should play in the OFC. Like News said, the Phoenix are an Australian football club.

The problem is, NZ Football won't make the hard decision to move to Asia.

The problem is lack of long-term vision in NZ Football IMO.



 
 
Why do people ignore the benefits that we get through playing in Oceania?  There are still plenty of positivies that come from being a big fish in a small pond.
 
Let's look at the Australia situation, has their international game developed since moving to Asia?  It's not the cure all that some people think
 
As El Grap said, NZ joining Asia is more complicated than simply wanting to. At the risk of sounding like Diego's Son, we also need to Asia to want us, and Oceania's NZ-less future also comes into consideration, whether we like it or not.
 
JD - I posted a while back on a different thread that Australia's development will take time. They had some success around the time they switched, but I would argue that it was despite coming from the OFC, rather than because of it. People got carried away and thought that life in Asia would be easy. The 2007 AFC Asian Cup brought them down to earth, and I would argue that they're about to go through a difficult rebuilding period post-South Africa 2010. 
 
The benefit they are getting is meaningful games against decent teams on a regular basis at both club and international level, which puts their players in the shop window more often. At club level, playing in the ACL gives their (mostly) second-tier players exposure to a higher level of football, with the long-term effect hopefully being a greater pool of talent for the Socceroos.
At international level, because they are playing better Asian teams, when they are successful,  they become more attractive friendly opponents for European and South American teams. More consistent exposure to a higher class of opponent means they will be better equipped for Asian, Confederations, and World Cups.
 
New Zealand at present is not an attractive opponent for many teams, even within Asia, as evidenced by our lack of friendlies in recent years. In addition, with the Oceania Nations Cup doubling as World Cup qualifying, we only play 6 competitive matches every 4 years, which is scant preparation for facing top-class sides at the Confederations Cup and World Cup.
 
There are benefits to staying in OFC, as our young talent get to play in age-group World Cups more often, also getting in the shop window and getting exposed to harder competiton, but beyond age-group level, the pathways are few with the current situation.
 
I think the long term solution is to get involved with Asia in some form, but I can see it happening later rather than sooner.
wolfman2010-07-28 22:08:34


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
its not just the All Whites involved in this.
 
It is also all the underage and womens sides to think of.
 
They would definately struggle to get into the big comps if we were part of asia.
 
Would this help grow football in NZ?
I doubt it.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Back on topic, I think it is in the Nix's best interests to keep taking the "Australian franchise based in Wellington" approach, and keep pushing for an ACL spot. I agree with the point of view that not being eligible for the ACL makes us less attractive when signing imports (especially Asians), but I don't think playing the O-League will get those players banging down the door to join us.


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I have to agree entirely with ya wolfman, also as someone said earlier, we should be allowed acl even if kiwis do count as imports. We should still have equal rights


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
playwithFire wrote:
I have to agree entirely with ya wolfman, also as someone said earlier, we should be allowed acl even if kiwis do count as imports. We should still have equal rights
 
This is where the problem lies. If we qualify for the ACL, we have about 1 year to pick a squad and discard NZ players that are surplus to requirements. However, the ACKC argument that the Phoenix have a role in developing NZ football talent has a point. While I don't advocate the Phoenix picking a squad of 23 players, an A-League squad used for the ACL that only features 1 or 2 New Zealanders among our imports, doesn't benefit NZ football.
 
One option is to sign Australian players on short-term contracts for our off-season between March and August, to play ACL pool games and 2nd round games , similar to Sergio Van Dijk's original deal at Adelaide. However, this gets very complicated and impractical should the Nix qualify for the quarter-finals in September, when the A-League is up and running.
 
 


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Unless New Zealand join the AFC, forget it. It is one of the costs of sticking with Oceania.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Why should it be? We are an Australian club. Either that or we are a NZ club and should be in the OCL.

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tegal wrote:
Why should it be? We are an Australian club. Either that or we are a NZ club and should be in the OCL.
 
If we as a club are eligible would you argue that they should change the entire rules of the competition to allow our players to also not be counted as imports?  Even I, a staunch Phoenix fan, baulk at that arrogance.
 
Why is everyone do depserate to be a part of what, at this stage, is a very mickey mouse competition?  It's not going to attract us players, you don't make a lot of money out of it, it's played mid week in the middle of winter (think of the crowd figures).  Yes there is a principle, but what really is the point getting so worried about it?

Normo's coming home

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
Tegal wrote:
Why should it be? We are an Australian club. Either that or we are a NZ club and should be in the OCL.
 
If we as a club are eligible would you argue that they should change the entire rules of the competition to allow our players to also not be counted as imports?  Even I, a staunch Phoenix fan, baulk at that arrogance.
 
Why is everyone do depserate to be a part of what, at this stage, is a very mickey mouse competition?  It's not going to attract us players, you don't make a lot of money out of it, it's played mid week in the middle of winter (think of the crowd figures).  Yes there is a principle, but what really is the point getting so worried about it?
 
No,of course I wouldn't. Its fair that we,like all other clubs play by the rules of the competition. All im saying is we should be eligible to compete as long as we can follow those rules. I was saying the fact NZ is in Oceania shouldn't even come into the equation as we are an Australian club,nothing to do with changing the entire rules of the competition.

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
Why is everyone do depserate to be a part of what, at this stage, is a very mickey mouse competition?  It's not going to attract us players, you don't make a lot of money out of it, it's played mid week in the middle of winter (think of the crowd figures).  Yes there is a principle, but what really is the point getting so worried about it?


That's the key imo. It's like if you were at the pub, went off to the toilet and left your drink unattended, came back and saw it was being downed by another bloke. You would demand he pay for another one as it was yours. Regardless of whether you could afford 20 more beers (for example) or not you would hold that belief because it's the principle.

It's not about playing in this mickey mouse comp, it's about having the chance to play in it, like all other A-League teams.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
JD has a good point. People are saying we need to be treated equally and be in the ACL if we qualify, it's a matter of principle

But what would you prefer??  A spot in the ACL or Kiwis not counting as imports in the A League for our team the Phoenix

Pretty obvious to me, stick with being able to have Kiwis in our team

The reality is we are a New Zealand team in the A league and have dispensation to have Kiwis accepted as locals. And to be able to have that, we forgo our ACL possibilities

Time to get over it I think


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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
hepatitis wrote:
JD has a good point. People are saying we need to be treated equally and be in the ACL if we qualify, it's a matter of principleBut what would you prefer??� A spot in the ACL or Kiwis not counting as imports in the A League for our team the PhoenixPretty obvious to me, stick with being able to have Kiwis in our teamThe reality is we are a New Zealand team in the A league and have dispensation to have Kiwis accepted as locals. And to be able to have that, we forgo our ACL possibilitiesTime to get over it I think


Spot on.

Asian Champions League or development of New Zealand players.

That's the choice.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
hepatitis wrote:
The reality is we are a New Zealand team in the A league and have dispensation to have Kiwis accepted as locals. And to be able to have that, we forgo our ACL possibilities.


Indeed, well put.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
ScoobyD wrote:
hepatitis wrote:
The reality is we are a New Zealand team in the A league and have dispensation to have Kiwis accepted as locals. And to be able to have that, we forgo our ACL possibilities.


Indeed, well put.


That is well put. I would rather have Kiwis getting their opportunity to shine too.



  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
why does it have to be a choice? playing in the acl doesnt have to change our kiwis counting as locals in the a league. but yes we would have to comply with the acl rules..they are flat out just not giving us that option. kiwis counting as locals in the a league has nothing to do with the decision they have made.

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Completely different scenario Bantam.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
How so? (genuinely interested)

Allegedly

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
"Libertadores and its sponsors gain access to a market of over 100 million people."


You lot in Wellington need to start flying Emirates, campaign to New World that they start stocking Pocari Sweat, send stuff using DHL and buy Toyota cars only. In large quantities. And then give whatever remaining money you have to ING.
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tegal wrote:
How so? (genuinely interested)


Well to start with Mexican clubs compete in Mexican club competitions, they aren't in limbo in any way shape or form. Secondly Mexican clubs were invited to compete by CONMEBOL, in exactly the same way two nations from outside CONMEBOL are invited to compete at every Copa America (Usually Mexico and USA). Thirdly the Mexican clubs cannot qualify for any additional tournaments (eg Club World Cup) by winning the Copa Libertadores. They are allowed to compete in the CONCACAF Champions League however and have full rights within that competition.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Tegal wrote:
How so? (genuinely interested)


Well to start with Mexican clubs compete in Mexican club competitions, they aren't in limbo in any way shape or form. Secondly Mexican clubs were invited to compete by CONMEBOL, in exactly the same way two nations from outside CONMEBOL are invited to compete at every Copa America (Usually Mexico and USA). Thirdly the Mexican clubs cannot qualify for any additional tournaments (eg Club World Cup) by winning the Copa Libertadores. They are allowed to compete in the CONCACAF Champions League however and have full rights within that competition.
 
Perhaps we should give up on the ACL and ask CONMEBOL if we can join the Copa Libetadores. After all we have just beated Boca. Away trips to Rio sound pretty good to me.
 
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over 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
KiwiBantam wrote:
Perhaps we should give up on the ACL and ask CONMEBOL if we can join the Copa Libetadores. After all we have just beated Boca. Away trips to Rio sound pretty good to me.
 
 
Are you Diego's Son in disguise?

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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/news-display/Herbert-wants-ACL-opportunity/45187

Wellington Phoenix coach Ricki Herbert believes his side should be treated like any other in the Hyundai A-League and be eligible for a spot in the Asian Champions League.

The Hyundai A-League minor premiers and grand final winners are given a ticket to the group stage of the ACL, while the team that finishes second after the regular season is granted a qualifying playoff to the tournament.

But the Phoenix, who currently sit second behind Central Coast, are not eligible for the ACL under Asian Football Confederation rules because as a New Zealand team they fall under the Oceania Football Confederation.

They are also ineligible for the Oceania Club Championship because they play in an Australian competition, which comes under the AFC umbrella.

It is a situation that has annoyed new co-owner Gareth Morgan who turned to social networking site Twitter to voice his frustration.

"Top 2 teams in the A League go to Asian Club Champs 'cept the Nix," he wrote. "Nor can we play in Oceania CC � it sucks!"

Herbert acknowledged it is a difficult issue but argued the Phoenix should not be treated differently to their A-League rivals.

"Well all the players are registered in Australia so it kind of makes sense a fair and equal opportunity for all clubs would be there," Herbert said.

"I guess that's on the table now and maybe there are one or two people who need to discuss it in a little bit more depth."

Another complication is that the Phoenix's New Zealand players would be classed as foreigners under ACL rules � which is not the case in the Hyundai A-League.

"I guess you can't have your cake and eat it," Herbert said.

"But at the end of the day it's a competition that we're all playing in and if the rewards at the end of it are an Asian Championship (place) and we're good enough to be there I kind of think we should be accepted."

But a Football Federation Australia spokesman confirmed the AFC's stance.

"The AFC have made a ruling that New Zealand teams, and Wellington in particular, are not part of the AFC Champions League and they are just not eligible even if they win the competition or the Hyundai A-League Grand Final."

He did not expect that position would change in the foreseeable future. "Not for this season and I don't see it for next season either," the spokesman added.

"They review their processes for allowing teams in but while Wellington are considered a New Zealand team, even though they are playing in our competition, they are not eligible to play in the AFC's confederation and their Champions League tournament."

The issue first surfaced in the 2009/10 season when Wellington reached the preliminary final where they lost to Sydney FC.

It has resurfaced now because Wellington's run of form means they are a real chance to finish in the top two which would mean a more direct route opens to the Grand Final.

They sit seven points behind leaders Central Coast and one point clear of third-placed Brisbane Roar who they play in Wellington on Sunday.

"Obviously if we can get the three it would be great," said Herbert.

"There are still 21 points to go. I still think it will be pretty tight leading into the last couple of games of the year."

"But we're at home and the ball is in our court. We are a point ahead of them so hopefully we can maintain that."

The two encounters so far this season have produced a 1-1 draw at Suncorp Stadium and a 2-1 win to the Phoenix in Dunedin.

"I've got huge respect for what they have done. The benchmark that they set last year was incredibly good," said Herbert.

"No doubt they will be chasing back-to-back titles again this year. But we are playing well."

"They've had little ups and downs this year but they look like they are back on track. I thought we did well against them in Dunedin and we'll have to play well again on Sunday to get something."


Wasn't it a 2-0 win?

George Costanza2012-02-08 21:37:36
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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Sure was, I noticed that too

You'll never beat The Salmon!

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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hang on guys.
Isn't it the case that if they let us into the ACL our NZ players would count as foreign as NZ is not part of Asia confederation?
We get the convenience in the A-league of being a NZ side in an Aussie comp but in the ACL wouldn't we be treated as an aussie team in an aussie competition to get in?
And if Kiwis were foreign for those games would we even have a starting 11? certainly not a competitive one as it would have to be filled by Aussie youth or something.

"Yellow Fever are fantastic – I have to say that"

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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
asmodeus_82 wrote:
Hang on guys.
Isn't it the case that if they let us into the ACL our NZ players would count as foreign as NZ is not part of Asia confederation?
Correct. Even if you convinced the FFA it wouldn't work and I wouldn't want to see our recruitment strategy cater towards the ACL. I would rather our exemptions for the a-league were not even mentioned particularly when we are doing well.
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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'd rather we focus on winning the league then worrying about this hypothetical BS


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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
asmodeus_82 wrote:
Hang on guys.
Isn't it the case that if they let us into the ACL our NZ players would count as foreign as NZ is not part of Asia confederation?
We get the convenience in the A-league of being a NZ side in an Aussie comp but in the ACL wouldn't we be treated as an aussie team in an aussie competition to get in?
And if Kiwis were foreign for those games would we even have a starting 11? certainly not a competitive one as it would have to be filled by Aussie youth or something.


Could we not loan players in like Sydney did with Dura for their ACL campaign? would fill any gaps.
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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Depends when the ACL squads had to be named I would think. This year they had to be in by 6th Feb, not sure when they had to be done last season.
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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
IT WILL NOT HAPPEN!
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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
It's a jinx to discuss this.  Just saying.
 
I'll let Ricki off (although I suspect the idea to get on the front page of the paper like Gareth last week hasn't worked)

How's my driving? - Whine here

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about 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
gings wrote:
I'd rather we focus on winning the league then worrying about this hypothetical BS
Good discussion, but we haven't won anything yet. Brisbane Roar and CCM are the 2 best sides in the League. Away wins at the Caketin are a great form guide, which puts Perth way up there with their run which has followed that victory. Makes us realistically about 4, unless we take the next step on Sunday.
Ifill's quote this week about the Nix not being at the Roar and CCM level yet is a timely reminder of where we're at. He re-signed on the basis there would be a couple of quality signings in the next off-season. 
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