Wellington Phoenix Men

Huawei Wellington United Phoenix Academy Football School of Excellence - WeeNix

2393 replies · 511,329 views
almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Of course, if the ASB Premiership is scheduled like this season 4 weeks off may be only one match.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Four week standdown to move from professional to amateur if they get on the pitch unless NZF, the FFA and FIFA have come to some arrangement.
Did NZF not alter this so Nix could get reserve keepers over last 2 seasons.

  Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think there was some sort of excemption if they didn't play.  Same with Clapham

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Cheers HN.
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
-naz- wrote:
zinidane wrote:
...at the moment it does have an academy "lite" feel to it.
Hey we arent Man Utd or Barca. 8 under 20 NZers getting a chance to be paid to train and play football (pretty much fulltime) in this country is a pretty massive step forward. This is something for young guys to aspire to adn provides positives all around.


Unfortunately they are not getting paid and would not be classed as professional in any case. It would be hard to recruit 20 year olds willing to sacrifice this so perhaps UK Kiwi is correct in targeting 17 year olds whom are not into getting paid mode. Definately a hard road to follow for any youngster.
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I wonder what the budget for this would be.

The good news is that this is more formalized and should place some pressure on rick to convert three of them to youth positions in the full squad

Auckland will rise once more

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
analyser wrote:
-naz- wrote:
zinidane wrote:
...at the moment it does have an academy "lite" feel to it.
Hey we arent Man Utd or Barca. 8 under 20 NZers getting a chance to be paid to train and play football (pretty much fulltime) in this country is a pretty massive step forward. This is something for young guys to aspire to adn provides positives all around.


Unfortunately they are not getting paid and would not be classed as professional in any case. It would be hard to recruit 20 year olds willing to sacrifice this so perhaps UK Kiwi is correct in targeting 17 year olds whom are not into getting paid mode. Definately a hard road to follow for any youngster.
 <!-- Template ID = 15803 Template Name = FN 3rd Party Display Ad --><!-- Ad ID: 250126142; --><!-- PASTE 3RD PARTY TAG HERE -->
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AT A GLANCE

The finishing school will have players in residence in Wellington by June

  • Eight players, 20 years old or younger, will be asked to join this season
  • These eight players will train and play with the Phoenix
  • Each player will be offered appropriate accommodation, allowances and schooling opportunities, developed specifically for each player
  • The eight players will be eligible to play for Team Wellington in the ASB Premiership
  • The eight players will combine with Phoenix players to play midweek friendly games against squads around the country
  • During the winter season the players will play in the local Wellington club competition

Might not be a "Pro Contract" but its a pretty sweet deal - much like college athletes were operating a few season ago.

-naz-2012-04-11 19:26:21
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
GK - Scott Basalaj

DF - Luke Rowe
DF -

MF - Jamie Doris
MF -
MF -

FW - Louis Fenton
FW - Dakota Lucas
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
http://garethsworld.com/welnix-football-academy-programme/#.T4ViBiN8L8B

Is this comment from Jordybean or Blue Magic?

"
Aki_T 5 pts

New Zealand Football and the Phoenix should find its own way to develop professional football and footballers. Australia is in the Asian Football Confederation now, it does not give a stuff, nor does it care about, NZ Football Development. NZ is Oceania's biggest nation, and as such, it should play professional football within Oceania's boundaries. Australia is not part of Oceania anymore"


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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Groan. Way to mix up a bunch of different issues into a rant that makes no sense.

Allegedly

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
analyser wrote:
-naz- wrote:
zinidane wrote:
...at the moment it does have an academy "lite" feel to it.
Hey we arent Man Utd or Barca. 8 under 20 NZers getting a chance to be paid to train and play football (pretty much fulltime) in this country is a pretty massive step forward. This is something for young guys to aspire to adn provides positives all around.


Unfortunately they are not getting paid and would not be classed as professional in any case. It would be hard to recruit 20 year olds willing to sacrifice this so perhaps UK Kiwi is correct in targeting 17 year olds whom are not into getting paid mode. Definately a hard road to follow for any youngster.
Actually any player joining this new Phoenix scheme would be classed as professional according to US college rules and so could never take a scholarship and play for an American college- so young players should be aware of this before considering joining this scheme.
Youth teams or academies of professional sports clubs are classed as professional according to US college sports statutes no matter whether the players are paid or not. Academies receiving any funding from a professional club are classed as professional.
N.Z.'s biggest private football academy is the Asia Pacific Academy at Lincoln near Christchurch and it will remain so.
 
See APFA website: www.apfa.co.nz
 
APFA takes 13- 17 year-olds (as from this year, girls as well) and is a much bigger operation
than the proposed Phoenix academy with a much larger group of players.
APFA are associated with Chelsea in the Premiership but get around the US college amateurism rules by accepting no direct funding from Chelsea- just some free equipment, free advice on coaching and some scouts from Chelsea assessing players every year.
All funding comes from private individuals, primarily founder Alex Smith, an English immigrant (former CEO Asia-Pacific Investments, Prudential, Hong Kong).
 
 
'...Most students are on full scholarships � they do not pay a cent. Yet they get the best gear, expert coaching and video analysis, paid trips overseas for trials and extra school tuition if they need help to pass NCEA exams. The minority of part-time scholarships cover only homestay costs.
 ... there are "private investors". Chelsea has no financial involvement � that would scupper students' chances of an American college scholarship due to strict amateurism rules. But they have helped supply kit and equipment and sent a coach out to Lincoln and Smith says, "we've sent three boys to Chelsea this year".

Chelsea doesn't have first right of refusal on APFA players as such, but the academy undertakes to make the club aware of any talent with premier league potential.'

Foreign players have also been enrolled, one signing for Celta Vigo in Spain.

Graduates include:

Cameron Howieson (youngest NZer to sign a full professional contract- two weeks ago at Burnley);
Bill Tuiloma- LA Galaxy;
Francis de Vries- FC Basel, Switzerland;
Hamish Murphy- Monroe College, USA;
Calvin Opperman- Canterbury United;
Diego Martinez (Mexico)- Celta Vigo, Spain's top league;
Two players from youth team, Brazilian first division club Figueirense.
 
Wellington Phoenix don't really need to duplicate the good work the APFA is already doing for 13- 17 year-olds with its Brazilian head coach, expensive facilities and international scouting contacts.
Where the Phoenix academy will prove useful is in catering for players 18- 20 years with first team potential for the A-League club (and then only eight players).
...Just not any player considering a US football scholarship...
 
See also this Yellow Fever forum thread:
 
Big Pete 652012-04-12 00:16:08

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
APFA has done very well of late, yes. But the main reason behind the football finishing school is to get young New Zealand footballers moving through to the Wellington Phoenix squad. APFA seems to focus on getting them overseas.
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah, another pathway can't hurt. The player can then choose what they want to do on an individual basis.

Allegedly

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Big Pete 65 wrote:
analyser wrote:
-naz- wrote:
zinidane wrote:
...at the moment it does have an academy "lite" feel to it.
Hey we arent Man Utd or Barca. 8 under 20 NZers getting a chance to be paid to train and play football (pretty much fulltime) in this country is a pretty massive step forward. This is something for young guys to aspire to adn provides positives all around.


Unfortunately they are not getting paid and would not be classed as professional in any case. It would be hard to recruit 20 year olds willing to sacrifice this so perhaps UK Kiwi is correct in targeting 17 year olds whom are not into getting paid mode. Definately a hard road to follow for any youngster.
Actually any player joining this new Phoenix scheme would be classed as professional according to US college rules and so could never take a scholarship and play for an American college- so young players should be aware of this before considering joining this scheme.
Youth teams or academies of professional sports clubs are classed as professional according to US college sports statutes no matter whether the players are paid or not. Academies receiving any funding from a professional club are classed as professional.

*snip*
US College eligibility seems to be a minefield. I recall people suggesting that playing against us in the challenge games might take away kids eligibility. If TW played these academy kids, would playing against them in the ASB Premiership affect the eligibility of others in the league?
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Luis Garcia wrote:
APFA has done very well of late, yes. But the main reason behind the football finishing school is to get young New Zealand footballers moving through to the Wellington Phoenix squad. APFA seems to focus on getting them overseas.
There's no doubt players from APFA will also be good enough and want to play for the Nix-
Let's face it, more players will pass through APFA than the Nix academy anyway...
It's not true by the way that APFA are mainly interested in getting players into foreign clubs-
eight of its 2011 scholarship players played this season for ASB Premiership or ASB Youth League teams. Calvin Opperman for example made the first team at Canterbury United.
It's big enough to produce players for both local and foreign clubs (it even enrols players from overseas).

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
WHy would the club rely on an institution in a different city over which it has no control to produce players for its first team?  Non-sensical stuff

Normo's coming home

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
WHy would the club rely on an institution in a different city over which it has no control to produce players for its first team?  Non-sensical stuff
Agree wholeheartedly the Nix need their own academy- a good thing for the owners to invest in.
They'll pick up a few players from this who'll move on to the senior team.
But the experience with youngsters like Rojas and Barbarouses previously at the Nix and the experience of academies at for example, British clubs, is that few players from your academy make the first team regularly and the best ones often go to other clubs (e.g. Chelsea, Arsenal field few players from their own academy but buy them from others')
I well remember the bitterness caused at my club, Charlton Athletic, when West Ham poached Jermaine Dafoe from the Charlton academy in 1999 (for which the Hammers had to pay compensation). 
With the Nix academy having only 8 players on its books and no-one wanting to join who has an interest in US college football, it's also going to find other sources such as the APFA or Australia a useful source of young talent.
As I posted above:
"Wellington Phoenix don't really need to duplicate the good work the APFA is already doing for 13- 17 year-olds with its Brazilian head coach, expensive facilities and international scouting contacts.
Where the Phoenix academy will prove useful is in catering for players 18- 20 years with first team potential for the A-League club (and then only eight players).
...Just not any player considering a US football scholarship..."
 
The Nix's mission statement for their academy states they are looking at players at the older end of the youth market up to 20 years anyway.
 
 

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Can I also make another point:

Running a private football academy is always going to be a controversial business.

How do you make money? People paying fees to train and attend.

Why then do you have scholars? Well a cynic would say that you recruit the best players who probably would have made it anyway, Once they succeed you trumpet their success as a result of their work at the academy and then get more fee paying kids. Inevitably the ones who pay fees are the least likely to go on to professional contracts. That creates a tension between attracting players to generate fee income and objectively assessing players likelihood of earning a living from the game.

At least with a club academy you know that you are there because they think you're worth investing in. As you cost the club money to train you in their programme they won't spend money on you if they don't think it's worthwhile.

Kiwis have been getting into the US College system for years without help from private academies. We've also had a number of kids get into youth programmes in Europe, usually off the back of U17 and U20 World Cups. Young guys feature in NZFC sides every week. None of that is extraordinary. To validate this programme we'd need a critical mass of players coming through to the AWs and making a livelihood at professional level.

There is no doubt that on paper this seems like a well planned operation (although the funding of the whole thing seems hazy - they don't seem to have any revenue streams right now but there are clearly significant costs involved. If its purposes are altruistic then I don't know why he doesn't say that. If not, then they have to be recouped from people paying fees which I've discussed above). Increased professional coaching for young players is undoubtedly a good thing. But let's hold fire on annointing this the saviour of NZ football off the back of a few quotes from Shane Rufer and gushing article from Tony Smith.

Normo's coming home

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think you'll find that the Phoenix academy will have been clearly structured so that players are still eligible for US Colleges james dean2012-04-12 02:02:45

Normo's coming home

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Some valid points raised by jimmy Dean above.
To my knowledge, nearly all the kids at the APFA are fulltime and training there for free.
Only the foreign enrolees and a small number of part-timers pay fees.
They only accept players of a decent standard after watching them in trials they hold.
Its backer Alex Smith is a very wealthy man indeed.
I suspect Chelsea donated most of the equipment and facilities (after Everton proved less willing).
 
 
" What makes APFA more remarkable is that aforementioned four-letter word beginning with f � FREE. Most students are on full scholarships � they do not pay a cent. Yet they get the best gear, expert coaching and video analysis, paid trips overseas for trials and extra school tuition if they need help to pass NCEA exams. The minority of part-time scholarships cover only homestay costs."

Big Pete 65, Christchurch

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What age do US college scholarships start? I would have thought by the time you were 17 or 18 you would know whether you wanted to take that route.

I'm not completely convinced it's the best if you really, really want to become a professional footballer either, just my opinion but it seems to me the players that come out are one or two years behind at the end. I can only see the point if you want to put at least as much importance on the education as well.
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Real USA scholarships with full costs covered are few and far between. So a good alternative. (Short trip home if you get home sick)

  Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
I think you'll find that the Phoenix academy will have been clearly structured so that players are still eligible for US Colleges
 
Yeah. There's absolutely no reason why the Phoenix owners can't set this academy up using the APFA/Chelsea model that Big Pete is trumpeting above.
 

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
terminator_x wrote:
james dean wrote:
I think you'll find that the Phoenix academy will have been clearly structured so that players are still eligible for US Colleges
 
Yeah. There's absolutely no reason why the Phoenix owners can't set this academy up using the APFA/Chelsea model that Big Pete is trumpeting above.
 

Exactly.What APFA is doing is fantastic. The Nix duplicating their model in time would surely grow the crop of up and coming NZ players exponentially. For the time being though looks like the focus is on older players 17-20yo.

  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
http://au.fourfourtwo.com/news/236912,ricki-herberts-phoenixs-revolution.aspx
 
Highlights:
 
"Fresh from a third consecutive A-League finals, Wellington Phoenix coach Ricki Herbert has vowed to help build the next generation of stars with the launch of a new talent drive."
 
"Phoenix first team player Chris Greenacre is expected to play a major role in this new academy structure."
 
"Meanwhile Herbert refused to discuss speculation that he was one of the coaches being looked at for the vacant Sydney FC post."
 
"In other news, Phoenix are reportedly looking to fund a W-League team, to take advantage of the growing success New Zealand women's national teams have enjoyed in recent times."
 

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
terminator_x wrote:
"Meanwhile Herbert refused to discuss speculation that he was one of the coaches being looked at for the vacant Sydney FC post."

A little scary.

He did sign a 4 year contract this season so not too worried at this stage.rjmiller2012-04-13 14:33:24
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
rjmiller wrote:
terminator_x wrote:
"Meanwhile Herbert refused to discuss speculation that he was one of the coaches being looked at for the vacant Sydney FC post."

A little scary.


If you refuse to discuss speculation about being linked to another job on Football Manager, the boardroom loves you.

Yellow Fever - Misery loves company

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
true that, little do they know that you actually inted to jump ship....

Queenslander 3x a year.

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
LJ1982 wrote:



From June, eight players aged 20 and under will be based in Wellington and will train with the Hyundai A-League club and play with the Phoenix in midweek friendly games as well as being eligible to play for ASB Premiership side Team Wellington.

In addition each player will be offered appropriate accommodation, allowances and schooling opportunities.
So I've had a bit of a think about this, and I was wondering if they could extend the age-range to 21. That way they could go to Uni while they are in Wellington and still train/play with the Phoenix. If this was the case then it wouldn't be that much different to getting a scholarship to a US college and might encourage some of those youngsters to hang around. Obviously the US college scholarships would still have a lot of appeal, especially at prestigious institutions, but the Phoenix option would be able to provide the lure of education as well.

I wonder if Welnix would be willing to pay Uni fees to sweeten the deal?

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
For me its going to be interesting to see who we sign as youth players on Pro contracts. We need at least 2 new u21 players, and as I understand it, they cant be part of the finishing school once they have signed a pro contract??

Or could we see Lindsay actually included in the setup as well?


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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The finishing school would be separate to the youth contracts. Being a professional Lindsay wouldn't be able to play for TW.
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah so thats what I thought.

So potentially we will be signing 2 u21 kiwis to pro contracts,
and 8 u21 kiwis to our finishing school?

So in total 11 u21 players attached to the club?

So I'm wondering if guys like Rowe may actually be signed to a pro contract and skip the whole finishing school?


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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
If we don't re-sign Tatts, we need a left back cover. Rowe would be the obvious answer.
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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
playwithFire wrote:
Yeah so thats what I thought.

So potentially we will be signing 2 u21 kiwis to pro contracts,
and 8 u21 kiwis to our finishing school?

So in total 11 u21 players attached to the club?

So I'm wondering if guys like Rowe may actually be signed to a pro contract and skip the whole finishing school?


I reckon we should sign Rowe.  TBH him being in the finishing school would be a bit of a slap in the face wouldn't it considering he was at Birmingham. His crosses are good and think he'd be a good Lochhead replacement when Lochy has finished with the nix.


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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Well what this situation means then is that if there is a promising young Aussie we can sign him up to a youth contract and not be costing a kiwi youngster a chance to be attached to the club because there's the academy setup for that. Obviously it will still be good to sign kiwis to the youth contracts but if there's a quality Aussie youngster we can get there's effectively more space for him now too

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Not sure if Griffith still qualifies for a youth contract.....he might be too old for next season. IMO an Oz youngster would have to a very very good player before he bumps a kiwi out of a Youth position. We have had various age group teams doing well in FIFA tournaments.....it should not be a problem filling slots with young kiwis.....NO more Aussies thanks....they have 9 other A-League sides to get a gig.

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tsats and Griffiths both ineligible this coming season I believe.

Think they are the two positions we are going to have to fill up with youth players too. So Rowe +1


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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Agree with most sentiment here with one exception. 
 
I'm not sure there is a youth age centre back in NZ I've seen that is A-League standard.  If we want youth cover there (and I think we should consider non-youth) it might have to be from Aus.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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almost 14 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah thats exactly what I was thinking after I posted it. Theres a few decent Aussie CB's around - I think Zac Anderson would be a good pickup. Young, passionate and has potential. Plus A-League experience.

Looks like he would be okay sitting behind Siggy and Dura, well I would assume so.


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