Wellington Phoenix Men

Phoenix v Sydney - Nov 1 - match thread

852 replies · 3,420 views
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Steve-O wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
Steve-O wrote:

It seemed overly fussy of the ref to be honest, if this law was enforced to the letter then every penalty in every game would be retaken.
So it's overly fussy to aplly the laws of the game. OK then. Why bother with rules at all.

�

Common sense dictates that some rules are not applied ALL of the time. Players are often seen encroaching into the box at penalties. There is no consistency is what I am saying.


don't agree with you a lot but this time you're on the money. get some footage of most penalties and there will be encroachment, almost guaranteed

when was the last time you saw a pen retaken for encroachment in any league other than the A-League?

EDIT: I've just seen that again on video that is an absolute shocker from the ref. Find me a pen at professional level where there isn't a player half a yard in like that. Terrible decision, can't believe people are defending this? Have you played the game?james dean2009-11-03 09:01:11

Normo's coming home

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
when was the last time you saw a pen retaken for encroachment in any league other than the A-League?



Off the top of my head, and in games I personally witnessed - Croatian league, old Yugoslav league, World Cup, Brazilian league.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
when? and are we talking one step like here or half way into the box, because there is a difference

james dean2009-11-03 09:13:16

Normo's coming home

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
and the Sydney player was clearly in first...


Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
when? and are we talking one step like here or half way into the box, because there is a difference



The best known example of the ones I remembered was the 1998 World Cup - Suker had to re-take the penalty against Romania because of encroachment, by Vlaovic I think. Don't remember how far he got into the box on the first attempt.el grapadura2009-11-03 09:17:32
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
martinb wrote:
and the Sydney player was clearly in first...


Irrelevant.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
no it's not irrelevant, if the referee had any sense he sees that, sees that we have zero advantage from it and awards the goal.

Normo's coming home

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
martinb wrote:
and the Sydney player was clearly in first...


Would only matter if we missed
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
no it's not irrelevant, if the referee had any sense he sees that, sees that we have zero advantage from it and awards the goal.


The laws of the game state if players from both teams encroach, the kick has to be re-taken. Doesn't matter who encroaches first.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
also it says something about 2 players between the player and the goal...could have been 2-2...well could have been 5-0 also...but!


Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
martinb wrote:
also it says something about 2 players between the player and the goal...could have been 2-2...well could have been 5-0 also...but!


Yeah, that's true - surprised there hasn't been more talk about the 2nd Sydney goal, Corica was clearly offside.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
martinb wrote:
also it says something about 2 players between the player and the goal...could have been 2-2...well could have been 5-0 also...but!


Yeah, that's true - surprised there hasn't been more talk about the 2nd Sydney goal, Corica was clearly offside.
 
Seemed like that but we didn't get good replays. People would be talking about more if we deserved to come close to them, people aren't whinging because they realise we didn't deserve anything out of the game (shows a growing maturity I would like to think)

www.kiwifromthecouch.blogspot.com

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What I'm surprised at is there's whinging about the penalty re-take, where there shouldn't be any, and none about the offside goal, although it's a more legitimate cause for complaint.
But maybe we have matured more and are ready to move on quicker, especially with another game tomorrow.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah, no cause for any whinging for the penalty re-take imo.

a.haak

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The ref was spot on. Arguing about only being just in the box (which they both werent, they were way in) is just like saying he's only a meter offside.

How are people arguing this?
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I guess people are arguing because it almost never gets called, however, simple answer is don't go in there early and you won't EVER get called for it.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
threat wrote:
The ref was spot on. Arguing about only being just in the box (which they both werent, they were way in) is just like saying he's only a meter offside.

How are people arguing this?


Because a number of rules around penalties have never been enforced exactly to the rule book like players stutter stepping to the point where they stop on the way in, and keepers moving off their line. SO despite the rulebook, if generally, week in week out all over the world they are not been called, it is not surprising that people are going to complain.

If you don't find it odd, you need to start watching more football and see it is never called
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
threat wrote:
The ref was spot on. Arguing about only being just in the box (which they both werent, they were way in) is just like saying he's only a meter offside.

How are people arguing this?
 
Yes the ref was spot on.
But unfortunately he got it WRONG the second time.
If you check the replay of the second penalty kick TWO Sydney players have encroached!!!!
 
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
it happened to us at home a couple of times in season one or two, if memory serves

Queenslander 3x a year.

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
perthphoenix wrote:
threat wrote:
The ref was spot on. Arguing about only being just in the box (which they both werent, they were way in) is just like saying he's only a meter offside.

How are people arguing this?
 
Yes the ref was spot on.
But unfortunately he got it WRONG the second time.
If you check the replay of the second penalty kick TWO Sydney players have encroached!!!!
 


yeh noticed that as well. Do hope there is a referees report that gets something...we could have been away at 3-1- we were threatening for a lot of that second half...and any goal could be a 4 goal run now...nah..make that should...


Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Not many games you can say that we were unlucky to not draw 2-2 and lucky to not lose 6-1, all in the same outing.

14/11/09

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
yellowfury wrote:

threat wrote:
The ref was spot on. Arguing about only being just in the box (which they both werent, they were way in) is just like saying he's only a meter offside.

How are people arguing this?
Because a number of rules around penalties have never been enforced exactly to the rule book like players stutter stepping to the point where they stop on the way in, and keepers moving off their line. SO despite the rulebook, if generally, week in week out all over the world they are not been called, it is not surprising that people are going to complain. If you don't find it odd, you need to start watching more football and see it is never called


Stutter-stepping is allowed. Keepers moving off their line too soon gets called occasionally, just as encroachment. Maybe not every single time, but they get called often enough for professional players to know better.el grapadura2009-11-03 18:30:13
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Addicks wrote:
Not many games you can say that we were unlucky to not draw 2-2 and lucky to not lose 6-1, all in the same outing.
 
Yes. Fact is we were put to the sword, penalty or no penalty. We were very lucky that Failoisi missed two gilt edged chances, and Brosque too right at the death. Our defence was in tatters for most of the game.
 
I have to hand it to Lavicka. He's taken some criticism for his tactics and a few barbs about his being a 'foreign' coach, but he has turned Sydney into a well organised team. Many of their players are performing better than they ever have and the whole team has a lot more aggression than line ups of the last two seasons.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
yellowfury wrote:

threat wrote:
The ref was spot on. Arguing about only being just in the box (which they both werent, they were way in) is just like saying he's only a meter offside.

How are people arguing this?
Because a number of rules around penalties have never been enforced exactly to the rule book like players stutter stepping to the point where they stop on the way in, and keepers moving off their line. SO despite the rulebook, if generally, week in week out all over the world they are not been called, it is not surprising that people are going to complain. If you don't find it odd, you need to start watching more football and see it is never called


Stutter-stepping is allowed. Keepers moving off their line too soon gets called occasionally, just as encroachment. Maybe not every single time, but they get called often enough for professional players to know better.
 
Yea, 'stutter-stepping' is ok I think. I think I remember one getting disallowed when a player completely stopped just before the ball. FIFA rule on this isn't that clear to me:

Feinting to take a penalty kick to confuse opponents is permitted as part of football. However, if, in the opinion of the referee, the feinting is considered an act of unsporting behaviour, the player must be cautioned.

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Some people said we were a bit of a bogey-team for Sydney in the first two seasons but that's most certainly not the case now.  They are a class outfit and I wouldn't be surprised if they won the minor premiership and Grand Final.

I noticed Corica's offside but didn't want to jump up and down too soon as the replays were average at best, but it's good to see I'm not the only one who noticed.
 
In my opinion they should revise the rule a bit with regards to encroachment.  Assuming El Grap's correct and it not mattering which team's player runs in (or runs in first) then they should make it that it only need to be re-taken if the attacking team are the ones running in (or running in first).
 
Where was Muscat for their second goal (I think it was second) when Siggy was charging down the line to know avail?  In my frustration by that point in the game I wanted Siggy to take the guys legs out from under him, but now that I'm slightly more calm then I can see that that would have been very foolish.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Jag wrote:
Nah, same rule apply in Scotland, EG.


I know it does Jag, was just having a bit of a cheap shot, since with him everything starts with "Back in Scotland..."
 
Well at least you're right about something...
 
Can't see the huge big deal about comparing certain things back home (where I've watched 95% of the football in my life) with what's going on here. Certain things may not be 100 % completely relevant but so what?
 
Funny that if I mention the Phoenix or New Zealand on a Scottish messageboard there is no resentment or cheap shots...
 
edit - should also say I don't think I've even mentioned Hibs or Scotland for quite a while but like certain other things I said about 6 months ago I am still "always" saying these things. Take off the blinkers chaps.
Steve-O2009-11-03 19:49:42

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The fifa rules state (in regards to PK's):
a player of both the defending team and the attacking team infringe the Laws
of the Game:
� the kick is retaken

a team-mate of the player taking the kick infringes the Laws of the Game:
� the referee allows the kick to be taken
� if the ball enters the goal, the kick is retaken
� if the ball does not enter the goal, the referee stops play and the match is
restarted with an indirect free kick to the defending team, from the place
where the infringement occurred
a team-mate of the goalkeeper infringes the Laws of the Game:
� the referee allows the kick to be taken
� if the ball enters the goal, a goal is awarded
� if the ball does not enter the goal, the kick is retaken
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Yes yes, we know the rules. The point is that considering it is very rarely applied in that sense, that it seemed harsh to suddenly decide to apply that rule against a team scoring when they were 3-0 down and unlikely to get anything from the game.

Neither I, nor anyone else, are disputing the rule. Although, it seems a bit daft that an opposing player could encroach if they wanted and ensure the kick was retaken? A player might get booked but in theory the entire team could encroach one by one and the penalty be retaken 11 times?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
A team was made to retake a penalty earlier this season in the A-League so it's not like this decision was completely out of the blue.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Yes fair enough.

I only said I thought it was a bit harsh, not completely unbelievable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
StopOut wrote:
Addicks wrote:
Not many games you can say that we were unlucky to not draw 2-2 and lucky to not lose 6-1, all in the same outing.
 
Yes. Fact is we were put to the sword, penalty or no penalty. We were very lucky that Failoisi missed two gilt edged chances, and Brosque too right at the death. Our defence was in tatters for most of the game.
 
I have to hand it to Lavicka. He's taken some criticism for his tactics and a few barbs about his being a 'foreign' coach, but he has turned Sydney into a well organised team. Many of their players are performing better than they ever have and the whole team has a lot more aggression than line ups of the last two seasons.


yep- but Costa got to but couldn't convert a one-on-one close with the keeper, had a header close to the up right, Greenacre at the back post, Daniel's penalty...we won the second half and had the momentum i think. They were countering well, but we were making chances.


Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Colvinator wrote:
A team was made to retake a penalty earlier this season in the A-League so it's not like this decision was completely out of the blue.


Only cos Muscat missed one so he could have another chance and keep his 100% record...


Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
aitkenmike wrote:
robman75 wrote:

I'm baffled why Daniel is the penalty taker anyway. He just doesn't seem to be the clinical type to be stepping up and hammering them home with confidence and accuracy.

Also, not meaning to throw too much critisism at Daniel, but what was all that sore arm stuff about at the beginning. We were a man down for 3-4 mins for what seemed to be a bit of an act to get a free kick. It was a tough tackle, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Any other player on there would have rubbed it and got on with it. A bit frustrating when the game has barely even got underway and the Nix are forced to hold back. 
 


Are you sh*tting me - he dislocated his shoulder!!!

Edit:  and you don't need to 'smash' a penalty for it to be a good penalty.  A sider foot along the ground into the bottom corner will go in 99/100, and before we jump on the Smeltz bandwagon, i'm sure i remember him missing a couple early on.


He missed one in a penalty shoot out against Melbourne....
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Colvinator wrote:
A team was made to retake a penalty earlier this season in the A-League so it's not like this decision was completely out of the blue.
 
� if the ball does not enter the goal, the referee stops play and the match is
restarted with an indirect free kick to the defending team, from the place
where the infringement occurred
Shouldn't this rule have been applied to Muscat then? I forgot he actually missed and then scored until martinb posted just then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2nd half of the rule applies -
a team-mate of the goalkeeper infringes the Laws of the Game:
� the referee allows the kick to be taken
� if the ball enters the goal, a goal is awarded
� if the ball does not enter the goal, the kick is retaken

Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Interestingly, first season against Sydney we had to have a penalty retaken because of enroachment. Taken by Daniel, who scored both times by going the same way. Should've done it the same again
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
aitkenmike wrote:
robman75 wrote:

I'm baffled why Daniel is the penalty taker anyway. He just doesn't seem to be the clinical type to be stepping up and hammering them home with confidence and accuracy.

Also, not meaning to throw too much critisism at Daniel, but what was all that sore arm stuff about at the beginning. We were a man down for 3-4 mins for what seemed to be a bit of an act to get a free kick. It was a tough tackle, but nothing too out of the ordinary. Any other player on there would have rubbed it and got on with it. A bit frustrating when the game has barely even got underway and the Nix are forced to hold back. 
 


Are you sh*tting me - he dislocated his shoulder!!!

Edit:  and you don't need to 'smash' a penalty for it to be a good penalty.  A sider foot along the ground into the bottom corner will go in 99/100, and before we jump on the Smeltz bandwagon, i'm sure i remember him missing a couple early on.
 
Who mentioned "smashing" the penalty. A clean strike on the ball would be nice. Its obvious Daniel relies totally on sending the keeper the wrong way. If the keeper goes the right way he's odds on to get there purely because Daniel doesn't strike the ball well enough... I don't remember seeing Smeltz miss that many. He certainly had a better ratio than Daniel. I'm not particularly a Smeltz fan, but any half wit can spot a decent penalty taker.
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
valeo wrote:
Didn't you see him get his shoulder popped back in robman?? Jeez, some of the criticism is definately unfounded in this thread
 
Nope - I missed that. Fair enough if it was a popped shoulder and good on him for going back on then. I retract the critisism. However, you can't blame me for suspecting a bit of softy - softy from him eh?!
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
It's not like they were a foot in, they were probably 3 meters in
Permalink Permalink
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
robman75 wrote:
valeo wrote:
Didn't you see him get his shoulder popped back in robman?? Jeez, some of the criticism is definately unfounded in this thread
 
Nope - I missed that. Fair enough if it was a popped shoulder and good on him for going back on then. I retract the critisism. However, you can't blame me for suspecting a bit of softy - softy from him eh?!
 
He also played on after a clash of heads....which apparently required 5 stitches!
 
Danny boy is no softy!!!
Permalink Permalink