"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009
Pretty sure this is in another thread... but I am too lazy to find it.
Ok so how do we view stuff behind a paywall?
Grumpy old bastard alert
well this is getting out of hand. Have the FFA said anything yet?
well this is getting out of hand. Have the FFA said anything yet?
Probably waiting until the new year.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
The FFA will not slam or punish their beloved WSW. Just like those fights between them and Victory 'fans" a couple of seasons back - did anyone get punished or fined - NOPE, but if it were the Phoenix, we'd have been kicked out of their league.
Jim is ok, she's substantially less than.
Hence a good fit with the repugnant Jones.
Ugh.
Ok so how do we view stuff behind a paywall?
Grumpy old bastard alert
Ok so how do we view stuff behind a paywall?
This is the shame file Australian football bosses didn’t want you to see, the louts who’ve sent the sport into a downward spiral.
The top secret document features 40 pages of photographs of 198 soccer louts banned from the 10 A-League clubs, with nearly half hailing from the Western Sydney Wanderers.
While the FFA claims cricket and rugby league contain just as many bad eggs, The Sunday Telegraph can reveal that league has only 19 banned fans and cricket fewer than that.
The football shame file features fans who have engaged in conduct ranging from violence, assault or flare throwing to general thuggery in a three-year period up to October 30. More than a quarter of them have tried repeatedly, and often succeeded, to re-enter grounds even after bans have been imposed.
Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione believes crowd behaviour from some fans is spreading away from the stadiums, where police are witnessing horrendous assaults by some supporters on rival fans as they walk to the ground.
“The last thing we want to get to in Australia is putting rival fans in cages like the UK model,” Mr Scipione said.
“It should be a privilege and an enjoyable thing to attend sport in Australia. The sport must look deep within its culture to admit there is a problem.”
The issue has become so serious that stadiums are now moving to ban the local derbies between the Wanderers and Sydney FC until the FFA can contain the turmoil.
Officials now lock down the stadium 24 hours before the local derby contests so seating areas, toilets and even plumbing can be searched. Flares have been located in toilet pipes, planted by ground staff in collusion with fans.
Police are at their wits’ end with fans, clubs and the FFA. While there have been wide-ranging crisis talks over the issue with soccer authorities, the government and police say they are far from solving what has become the worst problem in Australian sport.
The head of the Major Events and Incident Squad, Assistant Commissioner Kyle Stewart, said that while the A-League is meant to represent the so-called beautiful game, fan behaviour of those on the banned list is “ugly, dangerous and extremely selfish”. Mr Stewart said controlling fans was not just a police matter.
“There is a bloody-mindedness within some of the clubs and the FFA that does not accept responsibility for the culture. It is their responsibility to mend that,” he said.
“The diatribe about us being the fun police comes from those who have an exceedingly huge level of ignorance about the role we play.’’
FFA boss David Gallop admits there is a problem but says anti-social behaviour around games goes beyond football’s jurisdiction.
“It’s a problem from parents, school teachers to police,” he said.
“By and large, behaviour within our venues has improved but many of the problems now exist outside the venues.’’
A quick glance at the list of incidences suggests the FFA is in a state of denial over the extent of the problem.
The conduct, described by one law enforcement officer as “Moore Park mayhem” when Western Sydney play Sydney FC at Allianz Stadium, now include vicious assaults on rival fans by some supporters as they walk to the stadium.
“Behave like a civilised human and not some grubby pack animal and you’ll find yourself buying many, many more season passes,” Mr Stewart said.
One of those “grubby pack animals” is a Wanderers fan who is a kindergarten teacher. He has been banned for violence and offensive behaviour.
Mr Scipione said police have been unfairly targeted for being too heavy- handed with fans but that it’s time for the code itself to address the issues.
“I sat with Dave Gallop (when NRL boss) and the people at the Bulldogs when they had a terrible fan problem,” he said.
“We sorted the issues out but it started within the club and at the NRL.’’
Thanks Patrick, I wonder what the FFA metric for village idiots is at games? As I said before, how many fans from the Victory and the FFA Wanderers got banned after that free for all a few seasons back? Head in the sand by the FFA as their two blue-eyed boys were responsible? And both teams still seem to be the ones with the flares. And I am not talking about trousers.
Have a read of this:
Interesting read imo. I do agree with the people having a right to appeal and defend themselves before the FFA. If, for example what this writer has written about himself actually proved to be factual, then he should have the right to be reinstated as a fan with no restrictions. IF what he has written is true.
Prisons are packed full of innocent people.
While the behaviour of Wilson Jones et al is disgraceful, do we suddenly believe the RBB Tards etc are full of angels resplendant in polished Halo's?
So what if more people get the arse from the Boxing day test, or the Melbourne Cup is full of drunken yobs, one person getting arrested at a football game is too many. One ripped flare is too many. One brawl outside the ground between supporters is definitely too many.
I am tired of the "well the AFL are worse" arguments. There IS a problem with a small minority of fans who attend some of these games that does need to be sorted out, because, rightly or wrongly, outside of the football community in Australia there is a very real perception that the games are attended by mindless thugs just looking for trouble. Yes, this is perpetuated by the media and maybe blown out of proportion while problems at other events go un-reported, but the best way to stop that is surely to give them northing to report about.
“I sat with Dave Gallop (when NRL boss) and the people at the Bulldogs when they had a terrible fan problem,” he said.
“We sorted the issues out but it started within the club and at the NRL.’’
The same Bulldogs who had issues that made the Sydney papers at least 4 times last season?
Prisons are packed full of innocent people.
While the behaviour of Wilson Jones et al is disgraceful, do we suddenly believe the RBB Tards etc are full of angels resplendant in polished Halo's?
So what if more people get the arse from the Boxing day test, or the Melbourne Cup is full of drunken yobs, one person getting arrested at a football game is too many. One ripped flare is too many. One brawl outside the ground between supporters is definitely too many.
I am tired of the "well the AFL are worse" arguments. There IS a problem with a small minority of fans who attend some of these games that does need to be sorted out, because, rightly or wrongly, outside of the football community in Australia there is a very real perception that the games are attended by mindless thugs just looking for trouble. Yes, this is perpetuated by the media and maybe blown out of proportion while problems at other events go un-reported, but the best way to stop that is surely to give them northing to report about.
Sorry, but this is completely missing the point.
The crux of the arguments are;
1. No real appeal process for those wrongly banned (unlike every other judicial process in the civilised world)
2. Bans handed out seemingly randomly.
3. Personal information leaked by the press.
4. Weak support from the FFA for the fans.
5. Certain sections of Australian medias ongoing vendetta against the game; ignoring all facts.
6. Police stuck in the 80's; calling fans grubs, talking about putting fans in cages 'like the English'.
No one disagrees that there are a few idiots that deserve to be banned. No one disagrees that flares shouldn't be ripped.
How would you feel if a handful of people in the YF zone started throwing projectiles at players and then the YF were all branded as 'hooligans'?
The fact is there will ALWAYS be problems with a minority of fans. But that's what they are. A minority. You can never completely stamp this out. I'm sure there are a few rowdy supporters at the national tiddlywinks championships too.
David Squires nailed it again;
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/picture/2015/nov/...
a.haak
Prisons are packed full of innocent people.
While the behaviour of Wilson Jones et al is disgraceful, do we suddenly believe the RBB Tards etc are full of angels resplendant in polished Halo's?
So what if more people get the arse from the Boxing day test, or the Melbourne Cup is full of drunken yobs, one person getting arrested at a football game is too many. One ripped flare is too many. One brawl outside the ground between supporters is definitely too many.
I am tired of the "well the AFL are worse" arguments. There IS a problem with a small minority of fans who attend some of these games that does need to be sorted out, because, rightly or wrongly, outside of the football community in Australia there is a very real perception that the games are attended by mindless thugs just looking for trouble. Yes, this is perpetuated by the media and maybe blown out of proportion while problems at other events go un-reported, but the best way to stop that is surely to give them northing to report about.
Sorry, but this is completely missing the point.
The crux of the arguments are;
1. No real appeal process for those wrongly banned (unlike every other judicial process in the civilised world)
2. Bans handed out seemingly randomly.
3. Personal information leaked by the press.
4. Weak support from the FFA for the fans.
5. Certain sections of Australian medias ongoing vendetta against the game; ignoring all facts.
6. Police stuck in the 80's; calling fans grubs, talking about putting fans in cages 'like the English'.
No one disagrees that there are a few idiots that deserve to be banned. No one disagrees that flares shouldn't be ripped.
How would you feel if a handful of people in the YF zone started throwing projectiles at players and then the YF were all branded as 'hooligans'?
The fact is there will ALWAYS be problems with a minority of fans. But that's what they are. A minority. You can never completely stamp this out. I'm sure there are a few rowdy supporters at the national tiddlywinks championships too.
David Squires nailed it again;
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/picture/2015/nov/...
I am not sure you are right about the lack of an appeals process being missing in every civilised jurisdition. Run on to a pitch at any major event, anywhere, you will see yourself banned without any right of appeal.
I am still not convinced about the bans being handed out randomly. Maybe I am a cynical old prick after a few years working in the prison system but in 99% of cases where there is smoke there is fire. Sure there may be one or two or even a half dozen in that 198, but I would guess the vast majority of that 198 have very good reasons why they have been banned.
As I said the actions of Jones and Wilson are deplorable and tbh did you expect anything more from the FFA. To a degree they are between a rock and a hard place on this, being seen to defend the 198 will give even more ammunition for idiots like Jones and Wilson.
I certainly do not disagree with you regarding biased media with a vendetta, but how do you fix this? I would suggest one way is to not give them anything to report on. Everytime a flare is ripped it just gives them more and more ammunition.
I spend a fair bit of time in Melbourne and as I am pretty sure you know, rightly or wrongly football does have a bad reputation across large parts of the general populace. Is it right? No of course it is not and it is a small element of boof heads that cause this trouble.
I suppose the difference in the Fever Zone with some of the other active support zones is that it is largely self policing. The Dickheads are told to pull there heads in before anything gets out of hand. It has been strange to see the evolution of the attitude Red Badge Security now has. Years ago they were like wtf are these knobheads doing out of their seats, singing chanting and having a good time? Nowadays, aside from the odd fun nazi, they are far more relaxed.
As we have said before, perhaps if the RBB and North terrace and the Cove, who lets face it, would make up the largest portion of that list by a country mile do not want to be policed with a heavy hand they need to Police from within instead of the did not see a thing attitude that presently pervades.
Maybe this is a Utopian view but if you only give them good stuff to report perhaps the Jones and Wilsons of the World will leave the A League alone
Prisons are packed full of innocent people.
While the behaviour of Wilson Jones et al is disgraceful, do we suddenly believe the RBB Tards etc are full of angels resplendant in polished Halo's?
So what if more people get the arse from the Boxing day test, or the Melbourne Cup is full of drunken yobs, one person getting arrested at a football game is too many. One ripped flare is too many. One brawl outside the ground between supporters is definitely too many.
I am tired of the "well the AFL are worse" arguments. There IS a problem with a small minority of fans who attend some of these games that does need to be sorted out, because, rightly or wrongly, outside of the football community in Australia there is a very real perception that the games are attended by mindless thugs just looking for trouble. Yes, this is perpetuated by the media and maybe blown out of proportion while problems at other events go un-reported, but the best way to stop that is surely to give them northing to report about.
Sorry, but this is completely missing the point.
The crux of the arguments are;
1. No real appeal process for those wrongly banned (unlike every other judicial process in the civilised world)
2. Bans handed out seemingly randomly.
3. Personal information leaked by the press.
4. Weak support from the FFA for the fans.
5. Certain sections of Australian medias ongoing vendetta against the game; ignoring all facts.
6. Police stuck in the 80's; calling fans grubs, talking about putting fans in cages 'like the English'.
No one disagrees that there are a few idiots that deserve to be banned. No one disagrees that flares shouldn't be ripped.
How would you feel if a handful of people in the YF zone started throwing projectiles at players and then the YF were all branded as 'hooligans'?
The fact is there will ALWAYS be problems with a minority of fans. But that's what they are. A minority. You can never completely stamp this out. I'm sure there are a few rowdy supporters at the national tiddlywinks championships too.
David Squires nailed it again;
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/picture/2015/nov/...
I am not sure you are right about the lack of an appeals process being missing in every civilised jurisdition. Run on to a pitch at any major event, anywhere, you will see yourself banned without any right of appeal.
I am still not convinced about the bans being handed out randomly. Maybe I am a cynical old prick after a few years working in the prison system but in 99% of cases where there is smoke there is fire. Sure there may be one or two or even a half dozen in that 198, but I would guess the vast majority of that 198 have very good reasons why they have been banned.
As I said the actions of Jones and Wilson are deplorable and tbh did you expect anything more from the FFA. To a degree they are between a rock and a hard place on this, being seen to defend the 198 will give even more ammunition for idiots like Jones and Wilson.
I certainly do not disagree with you regarding biased media with a vendetta, but how do you fix this? I would suggest one way is to not give them anything to report on. Everytime a flare is ripped it just gives them more and more ammunition.
I spend a fair bit of time in Melbourne and as I am pretty sure you know, rightly or wrongly football does have a bad reputation across large parts of the general populace. Is it right? No of course it is not and it is a small element of boof heads that cause this trouble.
I suppose the difference in the Fever Zone with some of the other active support zones is that it is largely self policing. The Dickheads are told to pull there heads in before anything gets out of hand. It has been strange to see the evolution of the attitude Red Badge Security now has. Years ago they were like wtf are these knobheads doing out of their seats, singing chanting and having a good time? Nowadays, aside from the odd fun nazi, they are far more relaxed.
As we have said before, perhaps if the RBB and North terrace and the Cove, who lets face it, would make up the largest portion of that list by a country mile do not want to be policed with a heavy hand they need to Police from within instead of the did not see a thing attitude that presently pervades.
Maybe this is a Utopian view but if you only give them good stuff to report perhaps the Jones and Wilsons of the World will leave the A League alone
I think the main point is if even 10 out that list are not guilty. Them having to face the consequences of having their name shared is just wrong.
Imagine if Patrick hit Brandon, and a couple of witnesses said it was you the FFA decided to take a hard stance and banned you.
Then 2 years later you apply for a job and they google your name to find your photo branded as being banned from football matches due to violence. How do you think that would affect your prospects?
That deserves an appeal process.
As far as I'm concerned it is a legitimate piece of journalism. Some people are shooting the messenger and going out of their way to protect people that probably don't deserve to be protected. Of course these people can appeal, they just need to go to Court for a ruling by putting up their evidence against that which got them banned. FFA seem to be blaming everyone else for this instead of taking some ownership of it. Understandable because it is a tough one to sort out.
As far as I'm concerned it is a legitimate piece of journalism. Some people are shooting the messenger and going out of their way to protect people that probably don't deserve to be protected. Of course these people can appeal, they just need to go to Court for a ruling by putting up their evidence against that which got them banned. FFA seem to be blaming everyone else for this instead of taking some ownership of it. Understandable because it is a tough one to sort out.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/27/fo...
Uses the same letter that Shirley Bright had in the last blog:
“Please be advised that Football Federation Australia (FFA) is not a government agency and, as such, the obligation to adhere to the rules of procedural fairness and natural justice does not apply to our organisation. For this reason, FFA will not consider any appeal.”
I'm mostly in agreement with NP and SthnJeff, but that letter and the attitude behind it really proves to me what a farce of an organisation FFA is. If that is the attitude in the governing body of football, maybe I really should start following NZ football as NZF is merely incompetent by comparison.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
Totally agree Junior, the arrogance is overwhelming. Who the hell is doing their PR?
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
Totally agree Junior, the arrogance is overwhelming. Who the hell is doing their PR?
Not their accountant http://thenewdaily.com.au/sport/2015/11/27/ffa-suf...
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
Totally agree Junior, the arrogance is overwhelming. Who the hell is doing their PR?
And here is how things are over in that hotbed of hooliganism and the real football factories: http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/nov/26/fo...
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
The FFA are plain wrong when they CLAIM that they only ban people when they are absolutely SURE that thewy have positively identified them.
https://audioboom.com/boos/3884794-blue-white-brig...
No.
But I am not sure ANYONE is saying they ban people just for the sake of it, or get it wrong on purpose...
That's not what people are concerned about...
...what people are unified in their protests over is that in those cases where they DO wrongly identify someone, however low the numbers of those cases are, and REGARDLESS of whether they "got it wrong on purpose or not", that people should be able to appeal.
Earlier the FFA, when asked why they didn't have an appeals process so that people wrongly accused/wrongly identified could clear their name, responded by saying an appeals process was not necessary because they had exacting standards for identifying people, and no one got banned unless they were absolutely sure they had identified the right person. They highlighted, as part of this justification for not needing an appeals process, that they had a lot of technology available to them in the stadiums now, and multiple high resolution cameras, and Hatamoto people in plain clothes in the crowds filming and photographing people - so they were extremely confident of identifying people before they banned them.
I am calling Bullshark on, that claim.
Assurances from the FFA that we should just trust that they don't ban people without being absolutely sure they are correctly identified can't be trusted. The point of that link is to highlight that there is at least one case where they CLEARLY got the wrong person... he was overseas at the time of the incident for which they banned him! So how sure of the identification were they?
“Please be advised that Football Federation Australia (FFA) is not a government agency and, as such, the obligation to adhere to the rules of procedural fairness and natural justice does not apply to our organisation. For this reason, FFA will not consider any appeal.”
That quote says it all. so the FFA think there is no way they could be wrong and consider themselves above natural justice. So there is one example where they were wrong and fortunately they were in another country so its easy to prove. I wonder how many people are innocent but cant prove their innocence because they made the mistake of paying money to support the football, and therefore have no evidence to protect themselves.
...and justice for all? Head in the sand by the FFA. Not everyone is innocent but too many are and the FFA egos need to be wound in before they destroy their own competition which has/ had the potential to be aawesome. In another thread it is asked, has Australia changed? Well these self serving beaurocrats would suggest so.
“Please be advised that Football Federation Australia (FFA) is not a government agency and, as such, the obligation to adhere to the rules of procedural fairness and natural justice does not apply to our organisation. For this reason, FFA will not consider any appeal.”
That quote says it all. so the FFA think there is no way they could be wrong and consider themselves above natural justice. So there is one example where they were wrong and fortunately they were in another country so its easy to prove. I wonder how many people are innocent but cant prove their innocence because they made the mistake of paying money to support the football, and therefore have no evidence to protect themselves.
And this is what is wrong with deBohun's proposed appeals process. The individual needs to bring evidence that they are innocent to the club, and if that evidence is compelling the FFA will consider it, and might overturn the ban
So as a fan at an ALeague game you need to take a go pro with you and film your whole day from hours before kick off (people have been baned for incidents at private parties not even at the venue) through the game to hours after the game. In fact, one guy from the WSW was banned for an event that happened on private property, not even on a match day! Without COMPELLING evidence that you are innocent they will not lift the ban.
The onus is ALL WRONG here. You shouldn't need to be constantly documenting everything you do just in case one day they wrongly accuse/idnetify you and ban you, without a hearing, leaving you with your only recourse to provide compelling evidence that you are innocent.
I am astounded that what is wrong with this is not so crystal fudgeing clear that EVERYONE doesn't just accept it. The fact that it has to be explained and debated to this degree is baffling. If you don't agree with this, I honestly believe you must either be being willfully disingenous, and just like trolling and stringing out an argument because you can; OR you really do have a very skewed view of some of the fundamental principles our society and justice system are built on.
“Please be advised that Football Federation Australia (FFA) is not a government agency and, as such, the obligation to adhere to the rules of procedural fairness and natural justice does not apply to our organisation. For this reason, FFA will not consider any appeal.”
That quote says it all. so the FFA think there is no way they could be wrong and consider themselves above natural justice. So there is one example where they were wrong and fortunately they were in another country so its easy to prove. I wonder how many people are innocent but cant prove their innocence because they made the mistake of paying money to support the football, and therefore have no evidence to protect themselves.
And this is what is wrong with deBohun's proposed appeals process. The individual needs to bring evidence that they are innocent to the club, and if that evidence is compelling the FFA will consider it, and might overturn the ban
So as a fan at an ALeague game you need to take a go pro with you and film your whole day from hours before kick off (people have been baned for incidents at private parties not even at the venue) through the game to hours after the game. In fact, one guy from the WSW was banned for an event that happened on private property, not even on a match day! Without COMPELLING evidence that you are innocent they will not lift the ban.
The onus is ALL WRONG here. You shouldn't need to be constantly documenting everything you do just in case one day they wrongly accuse/idnetify you and ban you, without a hearing, leaving you with your only recourse to provide compelling evidence that you are innocent.
I am astounded that what is wrong with this is not so crystal fudgeing clear that EVERYONE doesn't just accept it. The fact that it has to be explained and debated to this degree is baffling. If you don't agree with this, I honestly believe you must either be being willfully disingenous, and just like trolling and stringing out an argument because you can; OR you really do have a very skewed view of some of the fundamental principles our society and justice system are built on.
In fact, one guy from the WSW was banned for an event that happened on private property, not even on a match day
Can you please point me to where this is reported? On the face of it, this seems bizarre.not so bizzare once you know the extent to which hatamoto conduct their operations.
They are essentially a risk management company aren't they? without details of the example given, I can imagine a range of scenarios where activity that took place away from a match venue would be deemed sufficient to impose a ban. Your perspective on how fair that was would depend on your general view on what the bigger picture might be. For example if you believe that the right to a fair hearing, the right to not be judged guilty by association etc are greater than, say, risk to life and property at a game venue, or the credibility of the game in the public eye - then you are likely to oppose their methods.
As you might guess, I fall towards the right wing on such matters but I believe that sometimes the end justifies the means and I am comfortable in others not sharing my view.
They are so bizzare that I am beginning to believe that this has been produced as a smoke screen distraction to takethe eyes away from the Nix issue and fhe underlying proposedSoth Sydney issue as well as the downturn of fans and finacial money for the next TV deal. Keep fans confused and arguing with each other. Divide and conqor seems to be the FFA motto but do they not realise that they are destroying the very foundations to which they allegedly aspire to grow?
