Terry and the WCC...show me the $$$

225 replies · 2,046 views

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I felt this really sinking feeling when I read this morning's Stuff website. Terry S is being chased up by the WCC for unpaid debts to the tune of $2 million.

This has serious, serious ramifications for the Phoenix. The Nix lost Terry $1.5 milion this last season. With his debts to the WCC hanging over his head you would have to ask the obvious question. How on earth is he going to fund the Nix for next season?

This is all part of the global recession. It has hit the world football community very hard. We have all watched as team after team have struggled financially...even the greats like Man U are not immune. Now its biting closer to home.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what unfolds. Unless there is another way of financially restructuring the club then I can see trouble ahead.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Yep, I read the article and started to get that sinking feeling; the good times might have stopped rolling.

My concern is that all property development floats on a sea of debt and the banks will continue to lend based on the confidence they have in the borrower.

If Terry S is no longer seen as a 'good risk', then it may be farewell to the bank loan money and by implication farewell to the Phoenix.

I hope I'm wrong because I can't see anyone else picking up the annual million dollar shortfall at the Phoenix.

I would like to think that WCC has the wisdom to place a moratorium on the debt, or maybe take an equity stake in Century City until the property market re-establishes itself; otherwise, WCC may end up with nothing.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I look at it from another angle, a positive one for the upcoming season. The Phoenix with the upcoming season are in a far better position than any of the previous seasons.The have so much more credability in the eyes of sponsors and the like with the way things wound up at the end of the season, from a marketing perspective companies are going to want to be associated with The Phoenix unlike previous seasons where the Phoenix have had to chase the money I suspect it wont be half as difficult. This will be a good thing

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Same, I'd be hoping and sort of expecting some new sponsors to jump on board, a back of shirt and front of shorts sponsor would be nice.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I had a bunch of mixed feelings when I read the article;

I give great credit and thanks to Terry for his generosity in funding the Phoenix - he has established a franchise that embodies all that is good about Wellington, enriched a lot of lives and given kids something to aspire to - emulating their idols and playing football for the Nix.

I have huge sympathy for the creditors - they are small businessman with suppliers and staff to pay and families to look after. It must really grate when they see Terry on the apprentice playing the antipodean Donald Trump knowing he owes them money.

I worry about the impact budgetary constraints will have on recruitment.

I worry about the impact of the bad financial press on the staff and players at the Nix and our ability to recruit top players.

But where I have got to is I will be buying my season tickets again, twisting the arms of friends to get season tickets, buying more gear and doing what ever else I can to support the club and what will be will be.

He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I worry when I read things like this, But! The media loves the old Tall Poppy syndrome type of News Stories and I wouldn't be surprised if Terry and the Council had come to an agreement on this kind of stuff a while back, which has a timeline on payment and he probably is still within the timeline.CboZ2010-04-24 11:53:56

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Whitby boy wrote:

From what I've heard, most of these creditor payments are disputed. I've kept tabs on this for the last couple months or so, and from what I've heard Terry has every right to dispute some of these payments, as there's been reports of a lot of shoddy workmanship. As for case of disputed payment value, I can't comment. What it sounds like from Terry's defense is that they've just gone to the media as part of failed blackmail, trying to force his hand to accept a potentially unfair price to avoid mud slinging. I'm guessing he didn't give in. More info here - http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/local/3618431/Contractors-pursue-Serepisos

That being said, I'll admit that I want Terry to be the good guy here. Everything I've read, through the Dom and architecture blogs (which tend to be very anti-Terry), seems to back that up. But I can't claim to know the full story and I can't deny looking through black and yellow striped glasses.

(Yes, I actually have black and yellow striped glasses!)

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

zinidane wrote:

I felt this really sinking feeling when I read this morning's Stuff website. Terry S is being chased up by the WCC for unpaid debts to the tune of $2 million.

I guess we will just have to wait and see what unfolds. Unless there is another way of financially restructuring the club then I can see trouble ahead.

He is worth hundreds. Remember the article about players supposedly getting paid late a while back? Stop being so dramatic. The Phoenix are a hobby for him, he doesn't pour everything he's got financially in.

Oh Wellington is wonderful. We got the wind, the rain and the phoenix. Oh Wellington is wonderful.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I am personally shocked and appalled that a millionaire property developer doesn't pay his bills on time and has made some business enemies, who accuse him of sharp practice. Actually, no I'm not.

Terry's creditors now have nothing left in their arsenal. They have been dropping these anonymous hints for ages trying to ruin his public image. Now they've done the worst they can - unless they can catch him in bed with an underage boy or a dead girl. (Does anyone remember that Terry's brother got busted for drugs a little while back? Me neither.)

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Doloras wrote:

I am personally shocked and appalled that a millionaire property developer doesn't pay his bills on time and has made some business enemies, who accuse him of sharp practice. Actually, no I'm not.Terry's creditors now have nothing left in their arsenal. They have been dropping these anonymous hints for ages trying to ruin his public image. Now they've done the worst they can - unless they can catch him in bed with an underage boy or a dead girl. (Does anyone remember that Terry's brother got busted for drugs a little while back? Me neither.)

Well, I'd have to say as much as we all love Terry and he has saved football in NZ... We are all here slightly biased, much like LG said. That is probably fair enough considering how much we care about the Phoenix but I think I have to concede he definitely isn't squeaky clean.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Yeah but you got to admit,all these stories do all come out at once. I suspect a bit of blackmail does happen.

Allegedly

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Sadly some of you are looking through rose coloured glasses and not wanting to think there may be something in it. Was just amatter of time before this came into the public domainSome of this has been hanging around from the start.Im sure some of you wouldnt be so forgiving if you were a subby who hadnt been paid.Some of us have spoken about this before and sadly his reputation around town for paying isnt the best.I was really surprised when he was given the TV gig.
Some of this could have come out a couple of seasons ago but many people were to scared to rock the boat at that time,seems some of them have run out of patience.

Love what he did for us with Phoenix and im just hoping this dosnt impact on them.

GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Money does have a river flow affect and sure maybe Terry is owed a lot more than he owes his own creditors but again as his is a larger company with many diff revenue streams coming in and he also has a reputation he can borrow on its way harder for the smaller one man trade companies to have someone like him shrug and say I can't pay you till I get paid. They themselves have bills to pay and it often is just one largish development company not paying its bill that ends up calling smaller contractors to go bankrupt

As much as I love what Terry has done for the Phoenix I'm prepared to say I've heard many a story around Wgtn that has me not thinking so highly of him and I don't think its tall poppy syndrome at all

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

stories just aired on tv1 and tv3. Terry wouldn't appear on camera. Says he is also owed money.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

This isn't the first time I've heard about money issues.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

TV3 are loving this..

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

None of our business really other than as concerned fans for the club and its wonderful owner...

A small town in Europe........looking to bounce straight back up....well that aint going to happen

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

well here's hoping next season gets well sponsored, well attended and that heaps of merchandise sells and the nix start paying back the investment finacially as well...

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I'm no Terry cheerleader, but...

1. In the scheme of things these debts are small.

2. Find me a multi-millionaire that hasn't upset a few people along the way.

3. As someone earlier said, this will make virtually no difference to next year's Nix.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Tony P said on the radio there was nothing to worry about.

Slightly offtopic but no one is making a big deal about how Sam Morgan doesn't pay taxes!

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

A couple of million isn't too big a concern to a guy as wealthy as Terry. About a year ago FFT Australia ran a piece about the richest men in Australian football; they estimated terry to be worth 84 millionAUD. Critical_Lemon2010-04-25 13:18:12

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Net worth doesn't equate to actual cashflow, and cashflow is Terry's current problem.

It sounds like most of Terry's worth is bricks and mortar, which you can't easily turn into cash unless a) you mortgage it or b) you sell it.

I have heard some interesting stories of Terry's business practices, and quite frankly I wouldn't do business with him if I was a small sub-contracting business.

But that's completely different business to being a Phoenix supporter.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Smithy wrote:

1/Might be small but if you are a small contarctor who has had payement dragged out it can have a big affect on your business.

2/What so because they are multi millionaires its okay for them to get away with dragging payments out.

3/Just hope you are correct but still see you only said " virtually no difference"

GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

For any 'fan' of the Wellington Phoenix this story should be of huge importance. Mainstream media outlets don't run stories of this nature unless they are very sure of their information and where the story might finish up. That said it is not confirmation that Terry is in 'financial' trouble that he can't fight his way out of.

However, this is the owner of the football club, the man who by his own admission is pouring money into the club to the tune of 1.5 millon dollars a year in losses alone, therefore the total budget is much greater. He is if you like, a football philanthropist.

Successful philanthropists do not have 'cash flow' problems, they do not have a list of creditors big or small knocking on the door, let alone the City Council asking for 2 million in rates (as reported).

I also suggest that everytime a creditor (big or small) hears the fact that Terry is losing 1.5m a year on the Phoenix they are more and more motivated to take action to get their money back, through whatever means possible.

I respectfully suggest that anyone dismissing this story as a simple flight of fancy or scurrilous rumour and speculation is not a genuine fan of the club and is taking a 'head in the sand' approach. This cuts to the very future of the club and should be of genuine concern to all fans. I can't see too many alternative suitors knocking on the door to take the Phoenix to the ball - unless maybe the City Council does a deal to 'buy' the club in lieu of those apparently unpaid rates...............

I'll end with the hope that Terry is able to sort out the 'cash flow' problems he appears to be having - and the evidence is certainly stacking up that THIS IS INDEED THE CASE (i shouted for those fans with heads in the aforementioned sand).

Terry Serepisos saved A-League football in this country, not NZF at the time, not any other wealthy benefactor, not any big sponsor. For the sake of the Phoenix and the game generally, Terry needs to survive and continue in that role.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I am sure the Phoenix are not in any immediate danger of crashing.

But some of the comments about Terry being "loaded so no problems " are nieve.

The commercial property market is in severe recession. Sure, Terry owns quite a few buildings but equity in bricks and mortar does not always equate to cash in hand. If you have apartments unsold and offices empty and rental income tracking down then it affects your bottom line.

The result is that there will be cash flow issues and cash is what pays the bills at the Phoenix.

The irony is that with their great previous season the Phoenix are are a much better financial proposition than they ever have been . There will be more income from increased ticket sales, merchandising and sponsorship. The problem is that the Phoenix is a part of Terry Inc and will survive or fail on the basis of Terrys overall business performance.

As for the rumours of Terrys business practices....they should have no place in a discussion on a football forum.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

zinidane wrote:

As for the rumours of Terrys business practices....they should have no place in a discussion on a football forum.

Why not?

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Oceanic6 wrote:

Tony P said on the radio there was nothing to worry about.

Slightly offtopic but no one is making a big deal about how Sam Morgan doesn't pay taxes!

sam morgan dosent pay taxes because he dosent have to.

terry's not paying because he dosent have the cash

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Jazcobar wrote:

Oceanic6 wrote:

Tony P said on the radio there was nothing to worry about.

Slightly offtopic but no one is making a big deal about how Sam Morgan doesn't pay taxes!

sam morgan dosent pay taxes because he dosent have to.

terry's not paying because he dosent have the cash

Sam Morgan I don't think he was boasting that he didn't pay tax, I think he was stating how iincredulous it was that for someone of his wealth how easy it was to not pay tax, under the current tax regime, as they is no capital gains tax on the sale of businesses.

When Hibs, went up, to win the Scottish Cup - I wisnae there - furfuxake!

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I would love Sam to be the owner of the Phoenix one day.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

DKP22 wrote:

zinidane wrote:

As for the rumours of Terrys business practices....they should have no place in a discussion on a football forum.

Why not?

Because they are unsubstantiated rumours.

This forum is about football. Sure we are concerned about the financial viability of the club but most of us have absolutely no idea what is going on. (apart from the $1.5 loss last season)

Anything else is idle gossip. To make conjecture about business practices without proof is potentially libellous.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I dont see these articles as rumours or gossip. These are real contractors who have done work and havent been paid.

Terry responds that there are disputes about the quality and some overcharging. The cynical might say that to dispute quality/invoice prices is a standard business practice to avoid paying.

I hope there is no immediate danger to the Phoenix, but can see the potential drawback in terms of recruiting. Having the owners name in the media as a non payer, combined with the "rumour" last year of players wages not arriving on time, might put someone off coming here, compared to another A League club.

Going to Fury and Roar with their shaky setups would be more dicey.

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

A few comments/observations in no particular order:

1.) The journalist leading this story, PHil Kitchin, is probably Fairfax best known investigative journalist. I'm pretty sure he broke and chased the Veitch affair. I know of other campaigns he has lead the charge on, although they were not as successful as Veitch.

2.) The story and the Dom Post profiling of it seem to be well orchestrated. The fact they had recorded the interview with Terry and that the audio had been offered to the TV networks last night in exchange for Dom Post being acknowledged as source suggests to me a high level of orchestration (I wonder if Serepisos knew it was being recorded?).

3.) It would not suprise me if the Dom Post has lined up several more hits over the next few weeks to drag the story out. It would not suprise me if they are sitting on other material they will strategically reveal to maximise profile and impact from story. Serepisos should pursue them on this and see if he cant get them to lay it all out now, or pre-empt it, rather than have a front page every Monday for the next month.

4.) The story seems to be well supported by Dom P/Fairfax editorial leadership. E.g. Led the dom P on saturday, all over Stuff.co.nz, then a related story/adding different angle on pg 2 of the SST. Also, the story was supported by the Dom Post's editorial on Saturday (personally, I think that is dubious, and a newspaper should not take an editorial position on an investigative story broken by one of its journos so early in the piece. Let the story play out, let the facts reveal themselves, then take a position. Now, unfortunately, I feel the Dom will feel committed to vindicating its own public stance by pressing this issue relentlessly whatever the actual story).

5.) DOm/Fairfax want to brand themselves as news "breakers". If you're going to do that you need to hit the jackpot on a regular basis (is it a coincidence or otherwise that Stuff/Fairfax has been running a tongue and cheek branding campaign over the past few weeks telling eveybody "if our journalists dont break stories there are consequences"?)

6.) Serepisos made himself an obvious target when he took the Apprentice role, especially with all of the rumours around the Council $ and his liquidity flying around town.

7.) Serepisos needs to stop reminding people how much he/Phoenix has down for Wellington/football. Let somebody else say it. It is self evident and it undermines him every time he reminds us.

8.) If Serepisos hadnt been on the apprentice I imagine this story would have struggled to be seen as reasonable. How many other businesses owe council money? Probably quite a lot of this stuff goes on. How many other businessmen hold off on paying out work done by suppliers? Probably quite a few. However, once he was put on a pedastal as a business messiah then the game changed. The story is legitimate I think, but the question is whether the Dom Post/Fairfax will allow it to play out in a fair and balanced way - or whether they have already reached a judgment which they will now seek to enforce and whether their desire to maximise the publicity around the story and their "breaking it" will influence the extent to which they chase and present it (the editorial on Saturday suggests they are tending down this path).

Marius Lacatus2010-04-25 17:49:18

Permalink

almost 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Where did you learn to count Sam - I don't want to send my kids there.

Less importantly, I completely agree with number 7 (8 if you can count).

Edit: Damn, beat me to it.aitkenmike2010-04-25 17:42:03

Permalink