I guess if you took it from a simplistic business approach, if you have 5 kids that have zero cash and talent vs 5 kids with not so much talent but cash to burn, in private enterprise, what are you more likely to take on? Coaches and facilities are not paid for by high 5s and last I looked, love don't pay the rent.
The Benjamins takes care of business usually every time. The scholarship idea is a good one though...
Grumpy old bastard alert
love don't pay the rent.
That is a simplistic view Jeff. Ole gets a truck load of gaming machine money to pay their rent, and so can afford a few freebies. APFA have a sugar daddy to pay their rent, much like the Phoenix.
So, not quite as simple as "we need paying customers to keep the power on."
I know the guys involved at Ole and APFA pretty well, having been part of that gang for a bit, and in my opinion they are all football people first and business people second. So their desire is genuinely to produce the best footballers they can!
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
*facepalm*
I know its a simplistic view Smithy. I did say "I guess if you took it from a simplistic business approach"
Its never ever like that though.
Grumpy old bastard alert
Yeah I was trying to reinforce that you said that...I should have written: "That IS a simplistic..."
I do read your posts I promise :)
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Yeah. A Nix Academy run along the lines suggested by Stretford and Bullion would be not a profit-making venture, like APFA and Olé: it would therefore have to be subsidised. And the Nix can barely pay its bills at the moment, let alone subsidising anything else. So, something for the dim and distant future.
Aha. That is much better! And I immediately respect more the opinion of anyone who can correctly use the word "conflate".
I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but my point is that while all that might be nice and good it's not going likely to result in a much greater outcome (= more really good players) than what they are doing. It will, however, cost sh1t loads of money and disrupt the "market" hugely.
I also think you have some inaccuracies in there. You say that APFA etc aren't "professional environments" but, if the Nix started their own Academy and signed all of APFA players (maybe not all, but it doesn't change the point) how does the fact that it has a Nix badge on it make it a more professional environment?
In my view APFA offers as good a solution as anything the Nix could throw up. So to would Ole, if everyone could get along with them.
Your point about cost is very valid though. There shouldn't be a cost if you're a good enough player. APFA have for ages doled out scholarships, Ole do to but keep it pretty quiet. I'd like to think, although it hasn't been said, that if the Phoenix wanted a player to attend APFA but he couldn't afford it that they would stump up.
Assuming that is the case, I don't think there's a better (= more pragmatic) solution in the offing.
Good chat though.
I think all of this makes sense. I'm very interested in this because I think we actually have a quite large advantage here, NZ has produced some decent young players in the past 5 years and withut spending above the cap we're going to have to rely on younger players if we want to do something in this league.
What I don't quite get is what's actually changing? What does the partnership actually involve if these academies continue charging players to attend and the Phoenix aren't actually involved with coaching? I don't actually see how these partnerships are going to produce any more quality players
The Phoenix will still be aware of who the good players in NZ are at different levels so not sure they need to enter into partnerships purely to identify talent (it's in academies interests to identify players to pro clubs anyway because having a record of producing pro players surely means that their programme will be more popular - hence Wyners claiming every NZ player who turned up there once). I can see what's in it for the academy, suddenly your "Offical Development Partner of the Phoenix" and who wouldn't want to send young Jonny along there then.
Or is the plan that the Phoenix will pay for players to attend, or be able to send kids there who couldn't afford to attend otherwise? That would make more sense to me...
Normo's coming home
Hey JD.
I think I can answer some of that.
One of the best bits is how engaged Ernie and his staff are with the partners. So for example, they can say "hey, you know we really see a lack of XYZ in the kids coming through" and thereby highlight problems. They can also say "in 2 years we're going to need a left/right/centre back/whatever and let's work together and bring one through" which is significantly different from previously.
Overall I think it's positive that WPX are engaging with the existing troops. It should lift the standard of what the current folks are providing, but doesn't distract WPX too much from their core duties.
Imho it's been one of the most professional things our professional club have done, ever.
Certainly much sharper than the haphazard Retro Ricki YF Scholarship ;)
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
That makes more sense, cheers. That's interesting - having read quite a bit about APFA I think they seem to have a very good programme and I can completely understand why they were chosen rather than starting something new, I think I asked a few pages ago whether their ideas could be rolled out nationally because they seem to have a very well integrated plan for producing pro quality players, seems the most advanced set up in NZ. Or maybe they're just good salesmen...probably a bit of both.
What I don't quite get though, is this still limited to people who are able to pay the fees at the academies? Or are they actually going to try and channel players through these academies when they identify talented kids?
Like some other I have an inherent suspicion of private academies because the way you make money is by getting more attendees and the easiest way to get more attendees is to give people false hope. But it's interesting that the two you highlight as being the best, APFA and Ole, both have wealthy backers so fundamentally there is a bit of a philanthropic element to it too (developing players is more important than making money).
Normo's coming home
That makes more sense, cheers. That's interesting - having read quite a bit about APFA I think they seem to have a very good programme and I can completely understand why they were chosen rather than starting something new, I think I asked a few pages ago whether their ideas could be rolled out nationally because they seem to have a very well integrated plan for producing pro quality players, seems the most advanced set up in NZ. Or maybe they're just good salesmen...probably a bit of both.
What I don't quite get though, is this still limited to people who are able to pay the fees at the academies? Or are they actually going to try and channel players through these academies when they identify talented kids?
Like some other I have an inherent suspicion of private academies because the way you make money is by getting more attendees and the easiest way to get more attendees is to give people false hope. But it's interesting that the two you highlight as being the best, APFA and Ole, both have wealthy backers so fundamentally there is a bit of a philanthropic element to it too (developing players is more important than making money).
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
I thought Dave Wilson was Mr Ole - or has that stopped now? Or have a missed it and Dave Wilson, while continuing to back it, is no longer wealthy!!
Normo's coming home
Well well. Nix recently appoint APFA as "official Youth Development Partner" and now the news comes that APFA are pulling up stumps in Chch. Parents have been told they may head to Nth Island or even overseas.
So Wellywood football academy types, what's the goss?
Kotahitanga. We are one.
10cc reacts to news of APFA's impending departure, from the Mainland thread:
Kotahitanga. We are one.
So with any kid of quality trialling in the last couple of months and with squad now sort of final, barring a playmaking deep lying midfielder, who is left for this season's FSE (Ernie's kindy?)
Separate, perhaps related, issue: APFA have told parents to expect an announcement about their new location in the next 2 weeks, following the news a few weeks back that they are departing Chch.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
* Team Wellington Youth trials are scheduled to occur on 1/11 and 8/11.
Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn
So with any kid of quality trialling in the last couple of months and with squad now sort of final, barring a playmaking deep lying midfielder, who is left for this season's FSE (Ernie's kindy?)
Separate, perhaps related, issue: APFA have told parents to expect an announcement about their new location in the next 2 weeks, following the news a few weeks back that they are departing Chch.
Founder
So with any kid of quality trialling in the last couple of months and with squad now sort of final, barring a playmaking deep lying midfielder, who is left for this season's FSE (Ernie's kindy?)
Separate, perhaps related, issue: APFA have told parents to expect an announcement about their new location in the next 2 weeks, following the news a few weeks back that they are departing Chch.
Scott's college
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Rick wont be happy... I wonder at which point in his advisory role did he say, hey bring an extra competitor in to Wellington please. I already down one income how about killing another one of mine : )
Rick wont be happy... I wonder at which point in his advisory role did he say, hey bring an extra competitor in to Wellington please. I already down one income how about killing another one of mine : )
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
As Smithy noted, the Chch experience has been a 'mare. Mainland federation excluded all the APFA kids from FTC and canterbury rep programmes (after quite a few of them left for APFA); and they had to trial at TOL to get into NTC. They tried to play for a local club but ended up leaving/being kicked out. Mike de Bono and Tim Bush have lived through it all. All parties guilty of not finding a win-win solution. Hopefully 2nd time around everyone will have learnt their lessons.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
As Smithy noted, the Chch experience has been a 'mare. Mainland federation excluded all the APFA kids from FTC and canterbury rep programmes (after quite a few of them left for APFA); and they had to trial at TOL to get into NTC. They tried to play for a local club but ended up leaving/being kicked out. Mike de Bono and Tim Bush have lived through it all. All parties guilty of not finding a win-win solution. Hopefully 2nd time around everyone will have learnt their lessons.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
A good starting point will be if all concerned - academy, federation, school, clubs - take the approach of trying to do what is best for an individual's development as a player, without trying to 'own' the player.
Um, APFA also had a girls programme running...
Kotahitanga. We are one.
Wish one of those big players would bring their operation to HB. Some good locations to house the academy, excellent schools and best of all, great weather. footballing outlets are NCR in Central League and HBU senior and junior sides.
Wish one of those big players would bring their operation to HB. Some good locations to house the academy, excellent schools and best of all, great weather. footballing outlets are NCR in Central League and HBU senior and junior sides.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Wish one of those big players would bring their operation to HB. Some good locations to house the academy, excellent schools and best of all, great weather. footballing outlets are NCR in Central League and HBU senior and junior sides.
But a very small talent pool (sorry).
Next stop Auckland I'd say.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
I thought the kids came from all over the place and weren't necessarily from Christchurch. If they go to Auckland for a bigger recruitment base, I'd understand. For some reason I was thinking of live-in academies.
You're spot on NapierNix - a few chch kids but majority from all over, including international.
They haven't had a live-in option available so the kids have been homestaying; but the talk was (even earlier this year) that they were looking at building a dorm set-up on or near site. They definitely want football/education/accom on pretty much the one site (similar but different to Ole)
Speculation as to why Wellington - the Nix/TW connection, plus I guess easier for kids to play for Scots in midweek school leagues and/or Miramar on weekends; education sorted; accommodation/boarding sorted; good football connections/programme via Valerio Raccuglia. Pretty neat and tidy package really. Cost should be approx $20k per year.
Personally I think APFA will think, "right that lot is sorted; now let's take the model to bigger markets - Auk, Aussie, Asia"; and/or work the FIFA money via setting up academies in Oceania etc.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
No school leagues midweek, they're on Saturday mornings...but otherwise you're spot on.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
So in Christchurch were the academy kids playing in a school competition under any guise at all? and if so, how did they go? did they dominate?
That was part of the problem. Here's my knowledge of it:
Some of the kids attend the local high school but APFA kids couldn't play for them. Other not attending that school were allowed to play for their individual school or club but they weren't allowed to train with them! Basically the academy controlled the players entirely - their whole playing and rest/recuperation program. Had to get written permission to do anything outside that. Kids stopped from playing futsal, FTC, tournaments etc.
As a team (older group 15-17/younger group 12-14) they didn't play in any league and arranged their own games/tours. A year or two back the older players registered for the local club (selwyn) and played in reserve grade but pulled out after complaining about the standard of play and that they were getting kicked.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
I can understand where they are coming from to a certain degree. For example my son is a very good basketball player and during the rep season I have to be quite strict with his school over keeping him healthy for the practises and games that matter. Stupid things like having half the team out running in school sports sprints all afternoon when they have a basketball final to play at night and stuff like that. I'd imagine how much hair would be pulled out by the academy bosses by leaving their protégés in the hands of people less aware/caring of the athlete's programme. I manage to minimise the damage a little by coaching his school team but that's not always an option in most cases.
So basically that story is: APFA moves to Wellington, takes up residence in Scot's College.
Interesting, but not particularly ground breaking.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Wow, more kids heading to Welly.
As I've said previously, will be interesting to see how this works, given the Chch experience.
Having said that I think it's great new for future Phoenix Youth development; as Nix will now have both APFA and Ole kids in town - so easy to keep an eye on them all.
Of course the counter to all that is, having the systems in place to keep an eye on kids outside of Welly.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
Just having a browse through here reminded me of a meeting that was at Ole this week. Big changes there for next year. They are now very closely allied to Wests ; so much so that every kid who is in the Ole program will be registered for Wests ( at least in the under 14's , not sure about the older group). training 4 nights a week , other sports discouraged , participation in Feds/NTC discouraged.5 full time coaches ( 2 of the current ones , I assume 3 more).
Not sure what happens to the kids at wests who may be in the top under 13 side ( for example) who either don't make it through the trials or whose parents can't afford the 2K a year. WOn't be in the Ole program- then no top grade football.Harsh maybe but perhaps necessary.
ALso , if if a kid wants to do the Ole program but satay at their existing club- tough shit.
Haven't decided what I think about it yet. Oh , expect Kaizen numbers to go up , though.
Interesting point jazzman. Somewhere on another thread (mainland juniors?) someone has recently made the point that an academy run by a club or a club run by an academy is the future (rather like pro clubs the world over). This gives them an opportunity to totally oversee the players development - from all aspects of training to games to rest (periodisation being the new buzzword). That sounds like what ole/wests are doing and I can assure you APFA/scots/nix/miramar will take a similar approach. Don't like it? Fine, the next in line will take your place. It's all about total buy in to the process. Ideally lower team players/coaches also receive the benefits of the academy expertise too, so the whole club benefits.
Kotahitanga. We are one.