All Whites Coach Discussion - Hay Fever

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chopah

I think this is a problem that I'm glad NZF are trying to solve - for too long the Men's Coach has been the dictator of development policy and more recently regulations, this is the job of NZF and their high performance team - it's really damaging to the grassroots development landscape to have a "new" way of doing things every time a All Whites coach changes.  
I for one welcome a setup where the All Whites coach can give feedback into a strategic plan but ultimately they accept the plan of NZF and their high performance team who are then responsible for the success and or failure of that plan.

I haven’t got my head around what this Hay upsetting whatever the high performance section is (so a summary would help), but what do you mean by being a ‘dictator of development policy and regulations’?

Well it's not just aimed at Danny - it's been a problem of NZF's for many years that they seemed to not develop their own strategic plan but just relied on the All Whites coach to make key calls that frankly should be done at a board level.

For Danny the U20 rule is one example - love it or hate it, as All Whites coach someone shouldn't have the power to drive that kind of change.

Dale posted some info about the review summary including a link to a file which was an interesting read and touched on some of things I think need to be solved.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that Head of High Performance position, has also seen constant change at NZF. It's hard to have a well planned course for all the national teams, if the boss is changing all the time.

I've likely got it wrong (are Techical Director & Head of High Performance basically same job??), but something like below last few years.

Rob Sherman (highly rated apparently but fell out with CEO Martin?? - & is now across town at OFC). Was Technical Director at NZF which sounds like the same role as HP Chief?
Then the walking disater of Andreas Heraf was also TD at NZF (plus obviously appointed himself as Ferns coach)
Andy Boyens as interim HP boss
Then shortlived Gareth Jennings (who left earlier this year) - who did have an impressive CV pre joining NZF. Sounds like him & Hay didn't get along.
https://www.nzfootball.co.nz/newsarticle/105644?newsfeedId=568709

That's a shark load of change over about 5-6 years. Now some stability is badly needed. Sounds like they will fill the vacant position soon, and the new AWs coach after that, ie new HP chief to sit in on interview process for new AWs gaffer.

Maybe Rob Sherman will return to NZF?  Been mostly in Australia last few years, including stint as TD at Football Australia - but left that role parting a few shots at the FA from memory.

Edit - The U20 minimum player rule for National League teams, was pushed by Danny Hay?

yeah don't get me wrong NZF are a shambles as well and there has been so much change or as they like to say pivoting in their strategic direction.  At my club our favourite saying when we get a new direction from NZF is let's wait to see if the goal posts move - and often enough it does.

But those are all reasons to have the strategic plan sitting with the board and with input from key stakeholders so that when personal leave we are not back at square one with a new strategy.

Re Danny and his relationship with NZF HP staff - I have no confirmed source and no evidence but what I have been told the following happened:

Andy Boyens as the technical director was overseeing Danny and they didn't see eye to eye - Danny went around Andy to the CEO
NZF hired Gareth Jennings into the GM of HP (a new role I think) to sit above Danny and be a conduit but Danny didn't like Gareth and did not rate him (his call) so went around Gareth to the CEO.  Gareth either wasn't good enough or couldn't do his role because Danny didn't want to work with him so resigned.

FWIW here is the job description for the high performance manager (was advertised a couple of months ago)

Job Description

ROLE SUMMARY

As a key member of the Senior Management Team, The GM High Performance promotes and supports the creation of a world-leading high-performance environment and culture for national teams’ staff (Men’s and Women’s, age-group teams, Futsal Ferns and Futsal Whites) so that they can enable inspiring performances on the world stage. 

This includes the provision of effective performance and preparation programmes (Coaching, Sports Science, Medical, Mental Skills, Performance Analysis) which are aligned and supported by robust systems and processes. 

The GM High Performance works closely with the CEO and Football Ferns and All Whites Head Coaches with respect to national teams planning to deliver on Inspiring Performances on the International Stage as outlined in the Football in NZ Strategic Direction 2020-2026.

 

REQUIRED SKILLS AND EXPERIENCE:

Senior leadership experience and success within a high-performance sporting or corporate environment. 
Proven record in effective management of people and building cultures within teams. 
Ability to manage and measure results including setting clear objectives, assigning responsibility for tasks and decisions, and monitoring progress against targets set
Ability to work in a fast-paced environment and manage multiple concurrent projects with changing priorities and deadlines.
Highly skilled in inspiring and motivating others in order to achieve peak performance.
Communicates openly and honestly, in a way that promotes trust and understanding which builds strong relationships 
Creates a culture of innovation, collaboration, performance and transparency; and to build effective teams to these ends. 
A passion for high performance sport, ideally football would be well regarded. 

I wonder if John Herdman would fancy coming back here to live after the WC, especially with his lad now being a junior AW..

The Jam

I wonder if John Herdman would fancy coming back here to live after the WC, especially with his lad now being a junior AW..

Be great pickup. But why would he coach a team that will basically play friendlies for 2 years, followed by a rubbish OFC qualfying series.

Compare that to a higher quality CONCACAF region with regular competitive games. Plus if he's still coaching Canada come 2026, the huge attraction of being there for a home World Cup (co hosting with USA & Mexico). Canadian football is on the up.

And besides though Herdman junior has stated how he sees himself as a Kiwi, he could easily end up "doing a Gianni Stensness", if his career takes off and he comes onto the Canadian senior team radar, ie his old man!

But yes NZF are likely to go one of two ways with the new AWs coach. A local 'Pom-Kiwi' like Buckingham (if we got lucky), Bazeley, Figueria or Emblen - who knows the NZ landscape.

Or some complete unknown from overseas. Likely a young coach who sees the 4 year window up to 2026 as a chance to enhance their CV, gain some experience, then post 2026 head off to pastures new. Someone like a young Hudson or Herdman before they arrived to Godzone.

I guess the 3rd option is an experienced Australian like a Merrick, or other ex ALM coach keen to try a bit of international football.

Totally agree with comments that is no way Mackinnon could compare ‘best practice in other sports’ to the All Whites.

The contact time the AWs coaching staff have with the players is so so limited in comparison. They should be heavily focused on actual coaching with the very limited time they have, rather than endless time catering to each individual player, their cultural background, do they need a rocket, a cuddle or whatever. Sure that staff is important to a degree, but more when you are going on regular lengthy tours like the ABs, Black Caps etc

Just let the new AWs coach actually coach, don’t weigh him down with stuff off the pitch. Hopefully NZF heavily listen to the thoughts of AWs players past & present when selecting a new AWs boss. They should have the biggest input, not some team culture consultant

And are there any ex AWs coaches on the selection panel? Should be. Panel seemed a bit light on people experienced in international football. Pragnell maybe a competent CEO, but really he would know fudge all about international football and a top coach from a flake

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/130177437/disgraceful-making-danny-hay-reapply-for-all-whites-job-says-excoach

While no-one doubts the credibility of the NZF’s independent reviewer, respected sports governance operative Don Mckinnon, there is some alarm that the All Whites are being judged against best practice in other sports when there is no comparable New Zealand equivalent to football.

Ryan Nelsen, who captained the All Whites at the 2010 World Cup finals, did not want to comment on the tos and fros of the decision to invite Hay to reapply, but he did wonder whether the review was comparing apples with apples.

“I know Don Mackinnon and I respect him, but the one thing I would say is you can’t use the All Blacks or any other sporting code in New Zealand as a comparison with the All Whites.

“The All Blacks, the Black Caps, the Kiwis, you name it aren't playing offshore in different cultures in different countries and in different tactical environments.

“They don’t come back and meet every two years for two weeks.’’

The Jam

I wonder if John Herdman would fancy coming back here to live after the WC, especially with his lad now being a junior AW..

I attended some pro licence and National Licence coaching courses Herdman ran. He was the single most inspirational coaching educator i ever came across.  I also got to learn from Sean Douglas during an earlier era and he was also very inspiring in terms of his thinking and ideas on how to coach. Its a shame we seem to lose great coaching or coaching educator talent to the bigger football world.  Dont get me wrong there are still some really great coaching educators here but those two felt like big losses to me at the time.

Coochie said:
They should be heavily focused on actual coaching with the very limited time they have, rather than endless time catering to each individual player, their cultural background, do they need a rocket, a cuddle or whatever. 

Surely man management, squad management and culture/ cohesion  of the team is one of the most important aspects of being AWs coach? Being able to get the performances you want from the players or making sure the players are able to focus on this game, and trust their team mates?

I found this analysis very interesting about the Wallabies failures. And thinking back to 2009/2010 we had Ryan’s great leadership and a lot of players and the manager who were together at the Phoenix.

There was a lot of talk about team culture with Des. I honestly think with the current AWs a lot of them are frustrated at club level and some of that is feeding back into the national team, which is always going to be from a modest situation. They’re earning more than NZF and used to institutions in their clubs with a bit of power to make things happen. 

Only really Stamenic is visibly making ground and few at the top tier are starting regularly. Oh and Just! And the young Nix lads. 

I honestly thought Hay did better than I was expecting. But I don’t think it’s impossible for a half decent coach to come in and do a good job. 

I remember Brockie talking on the Between Two Beers pod about Hudson dropping him, Moss and someone else and then later reading about a similar method for weeding out negativity in senior players in a squad used by Pep Guardiola!

It’s got to be someone who has enough ego/mana to be able to put their stamp on the team and take control of the situation. Then you can figure out how many wingers etc you want I guess…

All this talk about Hay creating a great culture with-in the team. Alot of that was started very successfully by Buckingham at youth grade level. He talked alot about identity and NZ culture, since then alot of those players have advanced to the senior team. I still credit Des for making this change originally.
Which shows you don't need to be a NZer to integrate NZ culture and identity into a team environment. Of course having a good understanding of NZ helps as Des does.
The toxic environment left behind by Hay is anything but a legacy of identity and culture.
I still don't get why everyone thinks Hay should have just been handed the silver spoon and not have to reapply for a new contract. His tenure ended in failure and a breakdown in communication between NZF and the team. 
Hay choose not to re-apply. I think there more to this than we will ever find out. 
Speculating now but continuing to coach when he knew he had covid, putting players at risk of missing the game. Which happened. That would not have been looked on favourably by NZF.

Ranix

All this talk about Hay creating a great culture with-in the team. Alot of that was started very successfully by Buckingham at youth grade level. He talked alot about identity and NZ culture, since then alot of those players have advanced to the senior team. I still credit Des for making this change originally.
Which shows you don't need to be a NZer to integrate NZ culture and identity into a team environment. Of course having a good understanding of NZ helps as Des does.
The toxic environment left behind by Hay is anything but a legacy of identity and culture.
I still don't get why everyone thinks Hay should have just been handed the silver spoon and not have to reapply for a new contract. His tenure ended in failure and a breakdown in communication between NZF and the team. 
Hay choose not to re-apply. I think there more to this than we will ever find out. 
Speculating now but continuing to coach when he knew he had covid, putting players at risk of missing the game. Which happened. That would not have been looked on favourably by NZF.

I don't think asking Hay to re-apply is justified:

1. What more could you possibly learn? He's been doing the job for three years, if you don't have a full picture of the kind of coach he is, then you must be a pretty shark organisation.
2. If his tenure ended in failure and you, the coach, and the organisation haven't reflected on that already, then you must be a pretty shark organisation. What else are you going to learn by having him re-apply?
3. If you're hoping for someone slightly better to apply, but want to keep Hay around as a backup option... then I think you're being greedy and NZF isn't really in a position to do so.

I'm not surprised Hay told them to shove it.

20 Legend

Ranix

All this talk about Hay creating a great culture with-in the team. Alot of that was started very successfully by Buckingham at youth grade level. He talked alot about identity and NZ culture, since then alot of those players have advanced to the senior team. I still credit Des for making this change originally.
Which shows you don't need to be a NZer to integrate NZ culture and identity into a team environment. Of course having a good understanding of NZ helps as Des does.
The toxic environment left behind by Hay is anything but a legacy of identity and culture.
I still don't get why everyone thinks Hay should have just been handed the silver spoon and not have to reapply for a new contract. His tenure ended in failure and a breakdown in communication between NZF and the team. 
Hay choose not to re-apply. I think there more to this than we will ever find out. 
Speculating now but continuing to coach when he knew he had covid, putting players at risk of missing the game. Which happened. That would not have been looked on favourably by NZF.

I don't think asking Hay to re-apply is justified:

1. What more could you possibly learn? He's been doing the job for three years, if you don't have a full picture of the kind of coach he is, then you must be a pretty shark organisation.
2. If his tenure ended in failure and you, the coach, and the organisation haven't reflected on that already, then you must be a pretty shark organisation. What else are you going to learn by having him re-apply?
3. If you're hoping for someone slightly better to apply, but want to keep Hay around as a backup option... then I think you're being greedy and NZF isn't really in a position to do so.

I'm not surprised Hay told them to shove it.

1. Have him reapply to give him the chance to show what he would do differently to ensure better success. What his reflections were on his failed qualification. What he would expect from NZF going forward (rather than throw it out into the public domain). Who his preferred assistant / coaching/ management team would consist of going forward. what his true expectations are with this team. 
2. These things need to go through the proper channels and processes. After the end of a contract. 
3. Already some interesting options coming up with for the coaching gig. Talay for one. I'm sure there is plenty of other interest. NZF would be negligent in not taking there time and considering what is the best way forward from here for our national team.

https://youtu.be/9l1qm91DgYk
I remember watching this in lockdown a couple of years ago. Really fantastic stuff especially from about 32 minutes where Des talks about the cultural & identity work that was done over that period of time. Really interesting listen with many takeaways.

culture.jfif 112.99 KB

Process is a no brainer now... Talay surely has it in the bag.

I'd guarantee that NZF will want to advertise the role first (before appointing anyone) and that will only happen once the position is actually vacated by Hay at the end of the month.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/michael-burgess-the-strange-rewriting-of-history-around-danny-hays-all-whites-tenure/32WY7KIIRE7JK2GH2IR5ND2LPQ/

More Hay apologetics/propaganda from Burgess. Everyone who was a fan of Hay keeps repeating how great a performance we put in against Costa Rica, but do they ever stop to consider that they led from the first minute and did not need to control possession or even create a single chance after that? I doubt we would have been allowed to dominate the ball like we did had we not let in the early goal, and I seem to recall that we created very few even half decent chances. The var disallowal was harsh but would have been a bit of a fluke goal had it stood, and I think Costa Rica were generally happy to let us play all we liked while ensuring we didn't really threaten to score, as keeping a clean sheet was all they needed

Also the story about misconduct around the play off final has gone a little quiet. External enquiries and all. 

Not that I think that it would be great for football if it all came out, but that’s still background to this right? 

There were a few people saying things elsewhere on the forum about that? 

The football may or may not have been better, but we hardly scored a goal and the result is the same. Guna have fond memories of the Olympics, but the recent Australian series should have been closer. 

Why do they need to wait? Whenever I have replaced staff, I have advertised as soon as I know they are leaving.

theprof

I'd guarantee that NZF will want to advertise the role first (before appointing anyone) and that will only happen once the position is actually vacated by Hay at the end of the month.

Napier Phoenix

Why do they need to wait? Whenever I have replaced staff, I have advertised as soon as I know they are leaving.

theprof

I'd guarantee that NZF will want to advertise the role first (before appointing anyone) and that will only happen once the position is actually vacated by Hay at the end of the month.

didnt say they'd wait to advertise, I said they'd wait to appoint

I've watched Hay through his playing and coaching career. He very clearly likes the sound of his own voice and believes his own BS, similar in many ways to Hudson although a far better player.  He was a shark-stirrer at the Knights and was the reason Des was forced to leave.

That aside, Hay picked Pijanker to start in Doha in the game that mattered most to his AW coaching career. A call most of us knew was wrong (especially for those of us in Doha). Within 3 minutes, his "special one" had ensured Hay was unemployed. He left far better and experienced players on the bench, thus signing away his role as AW coach/manager. 

Thems the breaks. That's football whether he likes it or not.

Personally I'm happy to see the back of him and hope Des or Uffie get the gig. Both have more experience and have coached week in week out in cutthroat pro footie, something Hay has never done.

Hayters keep on Hayting. 

I haven't ever spent much time looking at replays of the game but watching it live I thought Tuiloma was badly at fault to let his man get by him so easily to put in the cross that resulted in the goal. I thought that in the box Reid, Pijnaker and Sail all could have done better but none were uniquely at fault and I was more mad at Tuiloma for letting it get that far. But in any case Boxall should have been starting, was gross negligence not putting such experience on the pitch for such a crucial game

Marto

I've watched Hay through his playing and coaching career. He very clearly likes the sound of his own voice and believes his own BS, similar in many ways to Hudson although a far better player.  He was a shark-stirrer at the Knights and was the reason Des was forced to leave.

That aside, Hay picked Pijanker to start in Doha in the game that mattered most to his AW coaching career. A call most of us knew was wrong (especially for those of us in Doha). Within 3 minutes, his "special one" had ensured Hay was unemployed. He left far better and experienced players on the bench, thus signing away his role as AW coach/manager. 

Thems the breaks. That's football whether he likes it or not.

Personally I'm happy to see the back of him and hope Des or Uffie get the gig. Both have more experience and have coached week in week out in cutthroat pro footie, something Hay has never done.

 

imanixsupporter

I haven't ever spent much time looking at replays of the game but watching it live I thought Tuiloma was badly at fault to let his man get by him so easily to put in the cross that resulted in the goal. I thought that in the box Reid, Pijnaker and Sail all could have done better but none were uniquely at fault and I was more mad at Tuiloma for letting it get that far. But in any case Boxall should have been starting, was gross negligence not putting such experience on the pitch for such a crucial game

Marto

I've watched Hay through his playing and coaching career. He very clearly likes the sound of his own voice and believes his own BS, similar in many ways to Hudson although a far better player.  He was a shark-stirrer at the Knights and was the reason Des was forced to leave.

That aside, Hay picked Pijanker to start in Doha in the game that mattered most to his AW coaching career. A call most of us knew was wrong (especially for those of us in Doha). Within 3 minutes, his "special one" had ensured Hay was unemployed. He left far better and experienced players on the bench, thus signing away his role as AW coach/manager. 

Thems the breaks. That's football whether he likes it or not.

Personally I'm happy to see the back of him and hope Des or Uffie get the gig. Both have more experience and have coached week in week out in cutthroat pro footie, something Hay has never done.

 

I think if Tuiloma was fouled in the build up to the first goal in almost exactly the same manner as Garbett fouled the Costa Rican and if he had gone down with theatrics, I wonder if the goal would have stood.

imanixsupporter

I haven't ever spent much time looking at replays of the game but watching it live I thought Tuiloma was badly at fault to let his man get by him so easily to put in the cross that resulted in the goal. I thought that in the box Reid, Pijnaker and Sail all could have done better but none were uniquely at fault and I was more mad at Tuiloma for letting it get that far. But in any case Boxall should have been starting, was gross negligence not putting such experience on the pitch for such a crucial game

Marto

I've watched Hay through his playing and coaching career. He very clearly likes the sound of his own voice and believes his own BS, similar in many ways to Hudson although a far better player.  He was a shark-stirrer at the Knights and was the reason Des was forced to leave.

That aside, Hay picked Pijanker to start in Doha in the game that mattered most to his AW coaching career. A call most of us knew was wrong (especially for those of us in Doha). Within 3 minutes, his "special one" had ensured Hay was unemployed. He left far better and experienced players on the bench, thus signing away his role as AW coach/manager. 

Thems the breaks. That's football whether he likes it or not.

Personally I'm happy to see the back of him and hope Des or Uffie get the gig. Both have more experience and have coached week in week out in cutthroat pro footie, something Hay has never done.

 

I

imanixsupporter

I haven't ever spent much time looking at replays of the game but watching it live I thought Tuiloma was badly at fault to let his man get by him so easily to put in the cross that resulted in the goal. I thought that in the box Reid, Pijnaker and Sail all could have done better but none were uniquely at fault and I was more mad at Tuiloma for letting it get that far. But in any case Boxall should have been starting, was gross negligence not putting such experience on the pitch for such a crucial game

Marto

I've watched Hay through his playing and coaching career. He very clearly likes the sound of his own voice and believes his own BS, similar in many ways to Hudson although a far better player.  He was a shark-stirrer at the Knights and was the reason Des was forced to leave.

That aside, Hay picked Pijanker to start in Doha in the game that mattered most to his AW coaching career. A call most of us knew was wrong (especially for those of us in Doha). Within 3 minutes, his "special one" had ensured Hay was unemployed. He left far better and experienced players on the bench, thus signing away his role as AW coach/manager. 

Thems the breaks. That's football whether he likes it or not.

Personally I'm happy to see the back of him and hope Des or Uffie get the gig. Both have more experience and have coached week in week out in cutthroat pro footie, something Hay has never done.

 

Ironically I think if Tuiloma had

lthomas20

Hayters keep on Hayting. 

I agree. Tuiloma was fouled. VAR should have picked it up even if the ref didn't. Exposed us completely.

Problem with starting Boxall and Tuiloma together is both of them can't pass.

MetalLegNZ

Problem with starting Boxall and Tuiloma together is both of them can't pass.

I'd have started Boxall instead of Tuiloma. Tuiloma was probably included due to his attacking set piece prowess, and I think that would be another indictment of Hay, that there was a reliance on a centre back to score goals. Perhaps that's also why Hay played 5 at the back against Australia, I personally thought it was cowardly to play 3 centre backs in a home friendly with nothing on the line against a second string side but maybe that was actually Danny in attack mode

What position has Danny secured in Perth?

Thought I read he was there catching up with family( wife from there).

Kaiapoi Town

What position has Danny secured in Perth?

Hay fever, no relief yet

Rename the thread "Talay fever", at least his hat is in the ring.

LG

Rename the thread "Talay fever", at least his hat is in the ring.

only one so far.