National League / OCL

NZFC Problems (now with answers - Page10)

276 replies · 19,971 views
over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tickets should be cheaper then if we miss a whole lot of games this season.  Or is that going to be a no-goer considering financial strife?

I let my guitar speak for me

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Season tickets would be, but I can't imagine why match day ones would be.

Particularly when most of the clubs have financial issues.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yes I was referring to the season tix.  Canty Utd was $70 last year, which I thought was quite good seeing as there was around 10 or 11 games.  Although the first few years it was only $50.

I let my guitar speak for me

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
 $30  for students  and $60 for older gits like moi here at the home of the NZFC 2008/09 Champions..HBU
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I believe they are pushing the start of the league back by a week and looking to have it wrapped up before Easter. Will mean a decent break and midweek games going. Draw to be issued Monday.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Was that for the full season or the new shortened one ?

 Before the shortened season.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
So all players will be available for winter leagues next year from day one?

Normo's coming home

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
YoungHeart Manawatu is FREE entrance this season!! Work that one out if you can.

We Still Love You Colin We Do!

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
YoungHeart Manawatu is FREE entrance this season!! Work that one out if you can.
 
 
That's easy - free admission; pay to get out!!
 
 
Cheers,
 
JR
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I�m sorry but I totally disagree with the steps taken by the NZFC. This has just been an exercise in papering over the cracks in a fatally flawed competition. The federation franchise system which is in place does not work, clearly. A purely geographically based league will not work in New Zealand, the sums simply don�t add up � just ask the rugby union, and if they can�t make it work with their huge resources, what hope does football have. If regional areas cannot afford to put out a team that can compete, and I mean compete, not just make up the numbers, then that is tough, and the progress of the game should not suffer because of it.

New Zealand had a fine national football league in the seventies, it was of a decent semi-pro standard, it drew crowds that are four to five times what you get today, and it worked. We should take some fundamental lessons from that and apply it to today. One of those lessons was that Auckland, which has more than a third of the population and probably half of the football playing population, should have at least half the teams. Then instead of having two mega clubs, you would have four very good, financially viable and competitive clubs and this would mean that the league instantly has a far stronger financial footing. There would be four other  clubs, and they would be allowed into the league based on their ability to fund and sustain a semi pro club. If that means Russian-owned Gisborne City or the Ole Madrids, then so be it. If you can�t pay you can�t play.

But the most important thing is to have a league in place that is not perennially in fear of falling over, and is also not at the whim of the political feckwits in the federation committees, who promise big and deliver nothing.

That is why both Team Wellington and Waikato FC should have been given the bullet. The league should have carried on with six teams, or five if Canterbury had bellied up, with four rounds, and then new teams should have been lined up to take their place next year. This is what happens everywhere else in the world � witness the Australian National Basketball league which dumped two of their biggest clubs because they could not afford to compete. The league rejigged, and carried on as it has done many times in the past.

What has happened is that the league has failed in its present form, and that should have been recognised and hard decisions taken.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Reminds me of a piece written for Sitter Fanzine about 7 years ago...

I bet somebody moans about this

By Roger Moroney (Sitter! fanzine, October 2001)

 
I am one of those punters who ensures the viability of the TAB by wrongly guessing the outcome of major sporting events and horse races.

My urge to drop a tenner on horses like Dobbin the Cripple in the third from Otaki in the vain hope he will improve on the eighth he posted a fortnight earlier at Avondale is both disturbing and inevitable.

I plunged to an all-time low in August of last year when I laid a $50 forecast bet on Southampton to win the Premier League.

Had they won I would have received something in the order of $7500 but... This year they saw me coming and really stuck enormously big odds on...Leicester!

So, $50 on Leicester to win the league-cup double. If they do then I shall inherit $173 million from the TAB. As I write this Leicester are at the foot of the table... I am one of those sad bastards who has difficulty picking his nose let alone a winning outfit, be it equine or footballine.

However, I think at last I sense what the terminally optimistic punter calls "a sure thing". The chance to make a few bob. The opportunity to get one over the bookies. The catalyst for a whole new era of wagering success.

I am prepared to lay a substantial wager on the format of the New Zealand national club championship (okay, the Premier League then) changing at least twice before the end of the year 2005.

At this point in time, the championship is set to revert to summer-league status...kicking off in the heat of January next year (which means Bluewater Napier City should get a flier given the experience of Papua-New Guinea).

This is summer soccer Mark 2. This is national league Mark 71, isnt it? Or is it 72? Gosh oh lawdy...there have been so many formats its hard to keep up. Has NZ Soccer FINALLY found the PERFECT script for the game�s premier competition?

Given the revamped revamps of the revamped original format I would say not, which is why I feel my dosh will be safe in my grubby, lager-stained little fist.

If (unlike The Field of Dreams) NZS build it and they do not come, then expect another think-tank session to find and alternative.

It will not be given a second chance. It will be deemed flawed and therefore must change to get the "crowds" in. The retreats, think-tanks, sessions, conferences (call them what you like) will resume. Ironically, in a format that, unlike the league has not undergone repeated change.

"Why not have a national soccer league through the winter...and have an automatic promotion-relegation set up like the Poms?" some misguided delegate will suggest before being consumed by a wave of laughter and derision.

"I reckon we should go to a sort of State of Origin setup...provincial teams made up entirely of locally-born players only," another delegate will offer.

This will be greeted with interest and a promise to "come back to that one".

Another delegate will also get a thumbs-up for his suggestion that there be one round in the summer... then a three month break... and the second, final, round in the winter.. .then a three month break and so on and on.

"I think we�re on to something," the NZS bloke says with a nodding of the head.

"I think every team should have at least one player of ethnic origin and a homosexual, given the per capita of the population and all that sort of thing," another delegate proffers.

"And going by that criteria at the very least four women," another will add...and the nodding will grow stronger. Devolution and indecision will be under way nicely.

Cynical? Of course this diatribe is soaked in cynicism.. .when the game�s premier competition changes almost as regularly as the seasons (ooh, how about a Spring League?) then it�s hard not to get frustrated.

I shall win any wager taken of course, but I�d be just as delighted to return to my losing ways if I�m wrong.

I�ll even offer NZS some winning advice. Set the new summer league in contractual, immovable, unchangeable concrete for at least one decade. Give it every chance to live and for the love of Pele allow the fans, the media and the players the opportunity to experience the rare and unusual feeling of year-in, year-out consistency of format.

I bet they�d all like that.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nzsportsprogrammes

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oh come on Daikiwi,

you should know that the main sponsorship in the 70s was with Wilfield and Rotham smoking companies. That was most of the funds that was supporting the semi-pro league then until the 80's when the Government undercut the league sponsorship by banning Public Smoking Advertising. They replaced it with the interior Smokefree funding for about four year and then when there was no real large sponsors, it went pear-shaped. Even Auckland City is still a bit out of pocket money after the restructuring of the league because they spent money on posters with the old schedules as well as tripping for O-league, but they still up for it.

Having 6 or 5 teams at the elite level with 4 round robins is silly. The Rugby Union is self-sufficient because they are fully professional sport with all the sponsorships in the country being sucked in as well as TV funding. Something that NZFC cannot be compared with.

The Old National League has failed and the franchise-based model is far more successful and has a 3 or 5 yearly review to improve, something that the Old National Club League does not have. Also the fundamental lessons we took from the Old National League are applied today. If you are looking for a Rugby comparison then Rugby before it became professional was very successful with regional based teams in the NPC for many years and it had greater support.

So the only difference is the numbers in support. If you go back to club system we would not able to have numbers in support that a franchise system has.

This actually shows that the franchise system saves a team from falling away from the NZFC, something that the National Club League would not be able to do.

Which means that the New Zealand is still able to keep the number of national league players to be competitive on the elite domestic scene for a longer time and hence benefiting NZ and keeping the players playing at a higher level. The old National Club League was fine, but not all players in the club are the best players in their regional areas. The NZFC allows to recruit the best players and therefore keep an even higher level of play.

As long as the grounds and the equipment are in good conditions and you have the selection of many strong players without the silly club rivalry, then you have the backbone of a very competitive team.

Having the whole regional area to support a franchise means better resources to pull from. Something that a club can't do. Club Rivalry is huge, I have known very good Caversham and Roslyn-Wakari players who would not play for Dunedin tech in the National Club League preferring to play at Southern League level instead.

After the next NZFC review, I would not be surprised that there would be two more Auckland teams(Counties-Manaukau & North Shore, an Ole' (Madrid) Wellington team and maybe a Tasman or Gisborne (I rather they be part of HBU) side because of the financial viabilility and geographical area that can help fund and support the franchaises. This will give us about 12 teams with two round robins and playoffs. Which I think is a decent team number for a beginning of decent league.

Enough different types of teams and enough league games. Eight teams is simply too small, 10 teams is better but really very little progress and 12 is the beginning of serious league and the high playing level does not suffer too much. It is up there with the number of teams in their highest domestic league level as in all the other countries around the world.

For a strong National team, we have to have a strong league with enough teams for the domestic players to compete for spots. Having only 6 or 5 teams, means that only 5 or 6 right wingers are competing with each other and not 8 right wingers competing with each other. The more competition the better. From 5 players you might have 1 or 2 players of note whereas from players you have a better look for perhaps 2 or 3 players of note in the selectors eye. It pushes the best of the players. Although we mainly select our oversea players for the national team, the NZFC players are on a stepping stone pathway for better things.

I would like to have a NZFC-select team on a tour one day either in the US or Australia to advertise their playing abilities for contracts etc. That would be an interesting team to take about. They could play against some of the Oceania national teams as a pre-tour warm-up.

BTW Waitakere United and Auckland City are not that Mega. But I agree that we have room for two more Auckland teams in the NZFC but disagree on cutting teams unnecessary which you are advocating.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

You still don't get it do you. The bloody thing fails because those who want to be in it, can't afford it period. No amount of wishing for dollars is going to change that. And you can compare it to rugby because they to struggle to maintain a geographical league at any level, because the costs of doing so in a nation of 4 million are prohibitive of doing so. The league in the seventies worked brilliantly, before they started expanding it, and diluting the talent, and turning it from a workable semipro league to a glorified park team league.

 I only said play six teams is because that is all you would have had for this season if those two floundering clubs had dropped out. Eight is the magical number, but eight teams that can afford to be in there, not in there by charity and dragging the league and other teams down with it.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Having a high level of playing is important if we are to get a crowd in to watch them. And the more crowd, the more sponsorship it would attract. The beginning capital is always part of the existing hardcore community, but the growth will come with the lifting of the playing standards that will attract new crowds to the game.

We need at least 10-15 years grab the attention of the public and another 10-15 years to grow the crowds. Don't expect that it would happen after 4 years without some backward stepping. We should expect a bit bad news that sets us back a bit. This is just our second step backwards after three steps forward, we still one step ahead before we started. We are still working on attracting the attention of the public, we haven't got to the grow stage yet until it comes a Kiwi fixture.

This is where the Wellington Phoenix will helps out to capture the public imagination. When the NZFC teams are competing on par with the Wellington Phoenix and the Wellington Phoenix are on very competitive par with the other A-league teams, the public can automatically gauge that NZFC capable of quality football. Then the crowd will come.

Thank goodness for the Wellington Phoenix playing against NZFC teams in the FIFA windows, it will help NZ football.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Daikiwi wrote:

You still don't get it do you. The bloody thing fails because those who want to be in it, can't afford it period. No amount of wishing for dollars is going to change that. And you can compare it to rugby because they to struggle to maintain a geographical league at any level, because the costs of doing so in a nation of 4 million are prohibitive of doing so. The league in the seventies worked brilliantly, before they started expanding it, and diluting the talent, and turning it from a workable semipro league to a glorified park team league.

 I only said play six teams is because that is all you would have had for this season if those two floundering clubs had dropped out. Eight is the magical number, but eight teams that can afford to be in there, not in there by charity and dragging the league and other teams down with it.


That league also worked brilliantly because of the tobacco sponsorship, as has been pointed out.
I think the only way to get a national league working properly in NZ is to take the approach the FFA did and try to revamp the way people think about football in this country.

One step they really should take is actively search for better sponsorship than the community trusts. Hyundai seem keen to sponsor as much football as possible...
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
How about having a north island league and a south island league with semi and a final.
The south island teams add to much cost onto teams budgets and the standard of play of the south island teams in the last 2 seasons has been very poor, infact the worst that I have seen in 20 years. 
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yes we need more (good) publicity and that will help get bums on seats. The promotion for the NZFC is awful, nothing on the telly, hardly anything in the paper, and only this site has anything newsworthy. 
 
Sometimes you have to spend a little to make a little.
 
If the league was cut to 5/6 teams as suggested, with none from a particular area of NZ, how would football be better?  Remember our biggest superstar came out of lowly old Chch, and we need suitable pathways for our juniors to climb the ranks.

I let my guitar speak for me

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oh no Daikiwi ,you don't get it.

The expansion came in the 70's.

In the 70s, it grew from 8 teams in 1970 to 10 teams in 1971 to 12 teams in 1977. Those expansion were good for the players and the game. Even you acknowledge how well it was. The best football was in the late 70s and early 80s.

It was the early 80s was when the crowds took off, especially with the All Whites success and the rugby lowpoint. We were humming very well with 12 clubs teams and really large sponsorship.

Then 1987 came. The winning of the Rugby World Cup and Soccer lowpoint with the lost of the Rothmans sponsorship as the company started to feel Government policies and the change to air New Zealand Sponsorship started a rocky road with less crowds and a weaker sponsor. Plus also the league decided to expand to 14 teams at a critical point. The national league had just secured Winfield sponsorship for 4 years before 1991 and things started to look upward until the governament policies in 1991 meant phasing out smoking companies sponsor money of the national league.

This is where the start of real trouble began, the competition was forced into superclub championships format from 1993-1996. Then we had smokefree sponsored a 10 team summer league in 1996, 11 team in 1997 and then 12 teams in 1998. Smokefree left and Quatas and then southern trust took up the reins of sponsorship for the 10 team national club league in 2000, 2001-2003. There was no 2004 national league as NZFC looked to take over in 2005 with better structure. NZFC is much rigid and broken down club rivalry and secured the best players in the regions, but yet flexible to secure smaller sponsorship within the region for each franchise and able to get more crowds.

We had the 10 team National Club league failed, failed and failed because the southern trust is really a small sponsor compared to the Rothams and the non-phased Winfield. We have suffered a lack of consistent big sponsors since and despite having a small 10 team league that was less money needed to sponsor it, it failed to produce crowd growth.

The NZFC has a steady and better crowd numbers than the 10 team National Club League overall. But without big sponsorship and TV broadcasting money and going professional, there is no real crowd pleasing to showcase the game.

It is always about sponsorship funding, the 70s and the early 80s was successful because of that.

It had nothing to do with expanding it, and diluting the talent, and turning it from a workable semipro league to a glorified park team league. That was not the problem.

It was the chopping and changing of the sponsorship as well as the government policies that affected the playing format of the league and in turn affected the team playing quality with no consistency and continuity of the league.

With the NZFC there is flexibility to grow, maintain consistency and continuity as well as secure a collective of smaller sponsorship with each franchise and the hope of gaining an even bigger overall sponsorship for the league besides NZCT. We able to keep above the water despite the funding issues while maintaining the player numbers for the NZFC. This is the strength of the NZFC over club based league.

With the chopping and changing, clubs could not possibility maintain consistency and continuity for players, whereas regional franchises can do so without moving the club players about and without creating club rivalry in the process.

We cannot rely on big sponsorships until there is a professional commercial business involved and that cannot happen until the league goes fully professional. If it goes fully professional, than it would not be donations funded but commercial funded, which is much better.
AllWhitebelievr2008-10-18 13:54:28
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This reminds me, some years ago I compiled "The Fall and Rise (and Fall and Rise) of the National League: a potted choronology of the twists, turns and conflicting ideas in New Zealand soccer from 1990-2003.
 
It's an unpublished manuscript running to over 160 pages, and I may just update and publish it someday.
 
But here is the Introduction, which pretty much replicates the flavour of this discussion.

Introduction

Change and upheaval can almost be considered defining features of New Zealand soccer�s national league.

The league (also counting its bastard surrogate, the superclub championship) has undergone regular change since its trailblazing inception in 1970 as the first national club competition in New Zealand.

Since then it has become a plaything for soccer politicians. This chronology charts the various circumstances in which they would discard the national league one year, then reintroduce it two or three years on. They would happily increase or decrease the number of teams in it, scrap relegation and make it invitation only (or the reverse) or change the season it was played in at a whim.

Intertwined with this search for the perfect formula, soccer has dabbled with ideas such as franchises, regional leagues, North and South Island leagues, provincial entries, feeder clubs, federations, even a South Pacific competition, and been to the High Court on more than one occasion.

Eight teams formed the first league, and it was increased to 10 teams the following year, then 12 teams in 1977.

In 1987, in an effort to combat concentration of teams in the major centres, automatic promotion and relegation was scrapped and an invitation-only entry introduced, together with specific entry requirements. These included a minimum number of covered seats, a charge gate and walk-on changing facilities, with clubs able to combine to form composite teams with feeder arrangements.

But controversy wasn�t far away. Auckland side University, despite finishing mid-table, was dumped and replaced by the league�s first composite outfit, Hutt Valley United. Northern and Central league winners Mount Maunganui and Napier City joined them in boosting the league size to 14. Clubs were required to meet entry criteria and had five years to meet the new regulations or risk being excluded.

The necessity of meeting entry requirements by a mid-1992 date put extra financial pressure on clubs, and the demise of Dunedin City � at the end of 1987 � and the expulsion of Nelson in 1988 and last-minute rescue of Gisborne City in 1989 sparked the first calls for a scrapping of the league and replacement with a regional competition.

But in 1989, following the report of a taskforce, the NZFA reaffirmed its commitment to the club-based national league, passing a resolution saying the council "...remains committed to a national club-based league and the continued upgrading of this competition.��

Even against such a historical backdrop of "change" and apparent readiness to explore new ideas and structures to make semi-professional soccer viable here, 1990-2003 was a time of exceptional ferment in "national league politics".

We moved � often painfully � from a national league to regional leagues and back again, from winter to summer, and juggled with ideas such as franchising with a great deal of debate not just about what was best for soccer, but also about what was and wasn�t acceptable as methods of work in effecting change.

I�ve attempted to record the essence of the leading ideas of the day, both for and against, on just about everything that affected the national league during this period, from the sobering costs levied on participants to the sometimes surreal administrative hierarchies the league has operated (or occasionally failed to operate) under.

This is not a "told-you-so" compilation. I have no axe to grind either way with questions of summer v winter, regional v national soccer, or any of the myriad of stances adapted by the game�s personalities.

My motivation in cobbling together this chronology (which I started in 1995) has been to add to the social fabric of the game. Statistics can usually be tracked down, but so little seems to get recorded in terms of the social history of New Zealand soccer. I�d hate to see such a turbulent and interesting period, during which we surrendered then reclaimed a national league not once, not twice, but three times, ever be glibly recorded in a one-dimensional good-versus-bad manner.

But some ideas definitely do look worse for wear. The prevailing certainty and complacency of club administrators in 1991 that summer soccer was not what was wanted looks awfully dated against the mad scramble to be accepted into the new league in 1995 (and again in 2004 for that matter).

But that was only half the story. By early 1998, when the national league was stumbling along under a cloud of mounting debt, dwindling crowd support and diminishing media profile, those sentiments had almost swung full circle and the general view was the league hadn�t worked. Not that any of this stopped a subsequent gut feeling that summer was indeed the answer again in 2001, following on from no national league in 1999, and a winter season in 2000.

Even for those of us who lived through the vacillations of this period, it all became a blur. Ten teams, 11 teams, 12 teams, North and South Island leagues, the dead-in-the-womb South Pacific Cup, winter, summer, the implosion of some clubs, a third re-invention of the summer league... it just goes on.

You may note several of the leading characters and clubs in this chronology pop up with vastly changed points of view from year to year. But then "soccer" circumstances fluctuated wildly during this period as well.

Indeed, when I look back at my own opinions as both a fan and a writer over these 13 years, they�ve been every bit as inconsistent as some of the major figures canvassed on these pages.

Likewise, at times the processes employed to try and effect change seemed brutally abrupt. At others it they were tediously protracted.

It�s a frightening thought, but the things people said, the varied arguments and recurrent themes recorded here, will, in all likelihood, be debated all over again one day. On soccer�s track record so far, we�re bound to get a "revamped revamp of the revamped original format" (as is cynically predicted in one of the chronology entries here). Or there will a be think-tank session to find an alternative. There have already been so many of these, both actual and proposed, that it�s hard to keep up without a chronology such as this.

Meanwhile for clubs at least, there has been one element of consistency: a continual battle for survival within whatever the governing structure is. As one chronology entry from Sitter!, May 1997, notes...

It is hard work being a national league club. By its very nature, the national league attacks the onion of a soccer club, removing layer after layer of club life until it gets down to the little sliver of ambition and commitment at the core.

Similarly, the bedrock of addicted national league diehards must drill their ambitions like an oil well, down and sideways, through the muck and thickness until they strike a club layer solid enough to allow them to eke out another year.

Then, when the season begins, the motivations of dedicated club officials are thrown on the pinball machine of the league and bounced around on crazy administration, prima-donna players, dodgy refereeing and bare-faced luck. What an existence!

There is a decided "Waikato-Bay of Plenty" slant to my chronology.

But that is not necessarily a bad thing. It is my home region and I know of no other where the soccer issues were/still are so passionately and equally aired and argued.

This precis of events is far from exhaustive, but is drawn from a wide range of source documents. These include my own interviews and personal notes, match programmes, fanzines, minutes from various bodies, and newspaper clippings from several major New Zealand newspapers.

In the case of the latter, I am indebted to the work of a host of sports reporters who have tried to make sense of the ups and downs of national league politics since 1990, through to my cut-off point of December 2003.

We pick up the scent in mid-1990...

Bruce Holloway, editor, Sitter!, December 2003.

 
 
 
 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/nzsportsprogrammes

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard, Sitter may come back one of these days, full of stroppy views and happily annoying people all over the place. But not until I'm over my "club administrator" phase.
 
Unless The Jam wants to take it over again?
 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/nzsportsprogrammes

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Publish Mr H  ...Publish and be damned!!
Id buy one....
 
(its the readin thats the problem...)
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I still have volume 1 somewhere...ahh the sweet  promise of youth and the thump of leather on wally...
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Bruce, you may find a certain email that I wrote in the early 1991 (i think) that you publish in Sitter where I advocated regional-based national league as those club debts started mount ever so slightly because of poor business practice and lack of crowd.

At least if the debt was regional based, they could bounce back in the future whereas club based that would not be the case as in Dunedin City Club.

Actually I wonder what if things would be like to have a league committee as a side of NZF that ran the league like a business with decent marketing strategy.

Anyway, we need to keep things ticking over. Some franchises would have to be on the back foot at some time or another. The best thing is not to react irrationally by cutting teams and place extra unnecessary criteria until we get the crowds and sponsorship to do so and even then, the minimal criteria should never be too unreachable for poorer regional franchises. Continuity and consistency over a long period is important for the NZFC and then we should the fruits of the league in an generation. Don't expect too much more until there is a great commercial business offer in the form of TV broadcasting money and commercial sponsorship like what Australia has been getting.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The point I am making, and it's a point that doesn't seem to get through to Gen X and Gen Y people who are so used to living beyong their means and racking up debt and hoping that things will come right, is that what needs to happen is that the league has to be put on a strong financial footing, not tomorrow but now. The best days of the national league were in the days of the 10 team league in the seventies. I think you can trace the downturn, and the problems to the decision to expand it to 12 teams to allow in Nelson, Hamilton and Dunedin City into the league in 1977.Dunedin already had Caversham in it, and Nelson and Hamilton meant that the costs went up enormously. It also coincided with the introduction of the Australian national league, which in one fell swoop, took away many of the star players that the NZ public had adopted (I seem to remember half the Christchurch United team were poached) and the players that replaced them were not as skilful. I think you can trace the decline of the league to that point, not 1987, but 10 years earlier. The extra travel, the extra costs pushed the league to breaking point, even at that time, and eventually the northern clubs said enough, and at one point even threatened to break away as I recall. But that was then and this is now, and the problem again is that many clubs can't afford to compete. My solution is a simple one, it is exactly what the NRL did when they attempted to clean up the Super League mess. They went back to their strengths, the Sydney clubs, cut the likes of Perth, Adelaide and Gold Coast, which were badly run and hemorrhaging money and rationalised. Once they got the clubs back to a sustainable affordable level, they consolidated, grew from strength to strength and then expanded again when the time was right. If the NZFC is to survive, and that is by no means certain, they have to do the same thing. Rationalise, consolidate and build from a sound financial base. That means failed franchises should have been cut now before they damage the league any further.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Daikiwi, fundamentally no league in New Zealand is going to work without a team from the 2nd biggest city is it? If you are looking at it from any perspective, marketing, sponsorship, player base, there still has to be some kind of geographical spread, otherwise it's not going to be a ational league. For example even if there is not Wellington team those players aren't necessarily going to go and play fo another franchise, which weakens the league.

Yes, there should be another team from Auckland. But cutting the geographical spread is surely going to make it less of n attractive proposition to sponsors?

Normo's coming home

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Bruce, you may find a certain email that I wrote in the early 1991 (i think) that you publish in Sitter where I advocated regional-based national league as those club debts started mount ever so slightly because of poor business practice and lack of crowd.

 
Doubt it was 1991, I didn't start Sitter! until the mid nineties.
 
Oh, and to Bruce, been there, done that, still bear the scars.
TheJam2008-10-19 08:48:54
Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Great discussions on here guys, some heated, some passionate, all worth reading.
Again this highlights to me the wasted abilities that football has sitting just outside it's hub. Some of us are involved at club, level, some at admin but most not at all. Maybe we should be.
 
One point I'll make is about the promotion of the league. We all know that qualifying for the World Club Cup brings in a bit of cash for the club that gets there. I wonder how much of it is spent on marketing? Bugger all I'd think. Aads in the community paper are cheap, but it needs way more than that.
If I were in charge, I'd recruit a full-time experienced marketing person from another sport or area (i.e. with new ideas) and give them the instructions to increase the profile of the club.
The club I follow, Waitak, have virtually nil presence in the community. Where is the marketing at the local malls? The shirts, posters, players giving out free tickets? Waitakere is an area replete with shopping areas (Lynnmall, WestCity, Westgate to name the big three) chock full of people. Get your product in front of them. Basic marketing.
And if it meant paying a decent marketer $80,000 to do the job, so be it. The players can make do with a bit less.
Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Look Wellington has already got a football team, it's called the Phoenix. It might be that that is all the town can afford to support. I can think of two leagues where the second biggest city does not have a team. There is no NFL team in Los Angeles, despite it being the second biggest market in the US, and that league is the most successful in the world. The second example is the League of Wales where there is no Swansea team or Cardiff team in the league, perhaps a closer example to the NZFC. People generally support just one club in a town, and Wellington may not be able to financially support two teams. It would be nice to have a team from Wellington, it used to have two good uns in he good old days, but it should not be allowed to bring the league down, as it has. As I have repeatedly said, the big thing now is to regroup, retrench and get the league on a solid financial basis. The franchise system as it stands, on a geographic basis, is a politically correct nonsense. At the moment there are only two successful teams (on all fronts), so there is a hell of a lot of work to do. If a Wellington group can organise a team that can genuinely compete with those two, on all levels, good luck to them - perhaps the Ole Madrids mob - but we need people who can do it properly, with the financial wherewithall to thrive and not just survive, and not bring the league down with their often well-meaning but financially unsound governership - and there are so many in this league who are really struggling. With fuel prices and the economic downturn, it just got a whole lot harder, and we need to have a league in place which is has a chance to survive. Its survival of the fittest in all football leagues and we need to find clubs that have the player base and financial backing to compete. There are probably three more such groups in Auckland (two on the Shore, and one in the eastern suburbs). What has happened over the last few weeks, is that those clubs that can't compete have severely damaged those that can, and we all know close this league is to folding. It can't be allowed to continue and tough decisions have to be made.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
 That is a very good post 'Daikiwi. Tell me though, who do you consider the 'good uns' from Wellington in 'good ol days' ?? and how about an NZFC team based in the Hutt Valley, or is that much to close to Welly??
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
thepointiammakingisthatmorepeoplewillreadyourpostsifyoupunctuateeffectively

Yours,
 
Generation A(DD)
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

it's sad that team wellington have contributed to the undermining of the nzfc. i understand that it is not entirely the fault of the current administration, but i would still like to know why this has happenned.

my view is that their near collapse is not an acurate reflection of the city's ability to function well within the national league.  the city has always held it's own as demonstrated by the emergance of miramar as a dominant force in new zealand football just prior to the abolishment of the club based format.
 
in fact i was wondering before this fiasco whether the introduction of a franchise from the hutt valley would be viable.  i would certainly back the people i know who administer the major clubs in the hutt to raise the cash.  
 
either way, i think that those suggesting the demise of wellington's participation in the national league, whatever it's format, are being a little premature.  i think we need to know how this current team wellington situation came to fruition.
 
i for one think that you can't just blame a lack of pokie funding.

360footballnews.com

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Daikiwi wrote:
Look Wellington has already got a football team, it's called the Phoenix. It might be that that is all the town can afford to support. I can think of two leagues where the second biggest city does not have a team. There is no NFL team in Los Angeles, despite it being the second biggest market in the US, and that league is the most successful in the world. The second example is the League of Wales where there is no Swansea team or Cardiff team in the league, perhaps a closer example to the NZFC. People generally support just one club in a town, and Wellington may not be able to financially support two teams...
 
I don't think the Welsh example is applicable here. The critical difference is that Swansea and Cardiff have had professional teams for, respectively, 80 and 93 years before the formation of the League of Wales.
 
Here, Team Wellington pre-date the Phoenix. And TW attendances were apparently higher last year - the one season where we had two football teams in Wellington. So I don't buy into the two teams example being a problem for Wellington. The TW problems have had nothing to do with the Phoenix - or have they? If so, how?
 
 
As an aside,  on the NFL aspect: The NFL have a publicised desire to get a team back to LA - having had four there previously. One was the defunct Chicago based (!) LA Bucs from 1926. The Raiders returned to Oakland because the city wouldn't build them a stadium. The Rams shifted to St Louis (having previously been in Cleveland) when they couldn't get land development rights. And whilst still in the AFL the Chargers left for San Diego. When it comes to geographical locations, the US Franchise model is not a great example. With only 32 professional teams in the NFL, a country the size of the US has many, many large unrepresented cities, which is why cities get into situations where they try and "bribe" owners into moving the franchises across the country. It has been the case throughout the 88 year history of the NFL.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
TheJam wrote:
Bruce, you may find a certain email that I wrote in the early 1991 (i think) that you publish in Sitter where I advocated regional-based national league as those club debts started mount ever so slightly because of poor business practice and lack of crowd.

�

Doubt it was 1991, I didn't start Sitter! until the mid nineties.

�

Oh, and to Bruce, been there, done that, still bear the scars.


It was probably about mid 90s to late 90s, but those days I don't remember that much as an University student because I still mucked about doing things that I shouldn't even mention on a public forum like this.

I have to say you and Bruce must have really gone through plenty of heartaches and pressure during those times.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Franchise system should not just be based on the one season, it has a long term outlook that covers over the 3 years cycle. The performance over the short term one season are always agony for the teams that has not reach the top 5 of a 8 team competition. Sure the change of players and coaches may occur, but the financial outlook would really be looked at over a medium term of three years to keep the franchises in tact. That is why there is a review every three to five years of all the franchises by the NZF.

This season may easily change around for Waikato and Wellington and their books would be seeing a decent break even over that time.

Of course there are going to be problems, but it is not spiraling out of control as such to the extend that there is bankruptcy because the competition is running at a deficit. Controls and bending of the criteria and rules allows a general quality with the other franchise and a temporary acknowledged lower quality criteria from Waikato to ensure continuity and consistency without needing to cut teams. So hopely Waikato and Wellington spring back this season and be in a much better state the season next.

Allowing a temporary cut saving budget plan is better than having a money spent rescue package as the franchises are then able to time to search for money sponsorships rather than sucking money away from other franchises or the NZF.

Again, this is something that the Franchise model could do and that the club couldn't do. How would a club relocate to another locations? It would be possible. How would a club get extra funding from it's community supporters and fans digging deep in their pockets in this season to save the team? Not much money would be possible to do so with a club compared to the franchise that covers a much larger area.

Of course, the community funding is not the answer to our problems. Just look at the Rescue Helicopter on the news the other day that has suffered a reduced community funding and is appealing for money for the summer season. There is only so much funding to spread about. The first to lose out with the funding is sport as there are more important community groups that has life and death and other needs. We do need other avenues for money. This is why I really hate semi-professional, it is not commercial business enough to attract much sponsorship and it runs like a community trust rehab.

A lobby plan to go full budget professional is never a bad idea, even if we don't have the large venues. There are full time lower division professional clubs in England that has smaller venues and cost but the players are paid with a medium salary wage and live well enough. we should think about the basic full professional structure for football.

A budget version without the fancy stadiums are beginning. All the major clubs at the beginning started with a budget facility setting with budget professionalism and then grew as the sport was popular. As the more successful franchises are growing more, they get to attract the better players with their better facilities without breaking the salary cap. The competition for the franchises will then be improve their facilities or stay at the minimal. Still have a team to be competitive, still able to have a decent footing. (The salary cap increases with the CPI and so it not a problem otherwise.)

With the franchise system, it can grow steady. When the full time professional players have a medium salary like any other job, they can still be paid in the off season and have a second job. The more well known player can then get a simple public appearance fee and earn on their name.

As more players in the country become fully professional, the domestic game will lift up. That is something that NZF cannot ignore for the long term. and if we are to compete on the world stage, we have to turn professional like any other profession in this country. Sure it would be not as high flying as other jobs and not be a well paid as rugby players but it would attract those who want to play full time and increase interest as a serious sport by other.

Soccer is not considered serious enough to attract sponsorship so we need to be serious enough to attract serious money. All I see, is the need to become fully professional even at lower budget professionalism. Go around with a professional package and we see how much interest there would be. For Rugby and Netball to pay their sport people within decent support and backing, we should be able to produce a decent enough package with near equal footing. However this coming season maybe be off putting for some in a recession, but in terms of the stimulation of the economy, to have a budget professional structure is a great idea because it is a new business with employment opportunities and the potential to grow after the recession.

I know that not everyone agrees with me on this, which I understand the reluctance. But what the heck, I'm throw out a business idea to take the summer soccer into professionalism. The only other professional sport domestic competition during that time is cricket. I can't see it being much an obstacle as it still won't stop the fans from following both.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Masty wrote:
thepointiammakingisthatmorepeoplewillreadyourpostsifyoupunctuateeffectively

Yours,
 
Generation A(DD)
 
Now you mention it, I'd like to request a shorter posts from all. Bullet form perhaps...
VimFuego2008-10-19 21:54:34

I let my guitar speak for me

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What we had was a league that was unsustainable. There is no logic for 21 matches. It meant that by halfway through there were a number of clubs just trying to keep their heads above water with no prospect of going anywhere," said Lamont.

"Auckland City and Waitakere will hate it - but it's about time they have to suck some cold sausage.

"Waitakere and Auckland have picked the best of the players around the country and around the Pacific when it suits them.

"They haven't shown any great desire to further much of the local talent. "They've grabbed three guys from Waikato this year. They decimate Waikato and then start moaning when Waikato have problems. They've invested heavily but they've got the Oceania [Champions] League to keep themselves entertained.

 
Sorry which state of the USA is Otago in again?
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2 suggestions for Mr Lamont
 
1)  Go to beach
 
2) Drown
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
uncloz wrote:
2 suggestions for Mr Lamont
 
1)  Go to beach
 
2) Drown


lol, why does no one like him? I have my reasons, lets just say i hold grudges for a long time.
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