National League / OCL

Structure of football comps in NZ - your

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
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. . . .Just read my signature
"Being timid in world football gets you nowhere, and taking the easy option of standing on the sidelines while the rest of the world goes for the big prizes, is never going to be an option." - Frank L

. . .thats why . . .
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
So why don't you do it?

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
So why don't you do it?

Founder

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

. . . .Just read my signature
"Being timid in world football gets you nowhere, and taking the easy option of standing on the sidelines while the rest of the world goes for the big prizes, is never going to be an option." - Frank L

. . .thats why . . .
 
I do not know why we are taking advice of Frank Lucas on the state of our game.
 
 
Team Weillington sponsored by China White?
Frankie Mac2009-07-23 22:32:43

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/football/great-step-forward-as-coaches-taught-the-magic-numbers-1433/2009/07/25/1248457701265.html

Great step forward as coaches taught the magic numbers: 1-4-3-3

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Craig Foster
July 26, 2009
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NEWS of an initiative last week by Football Federation Australia technical director Han Berger should give great heart to those wanting to see our game improved.

It comes in the area of coach education and importantly, selection, which has been in need of radical change for a long time.

Berger brought every National Training Centre coach together during a Joeys' camp at the AIS to be taught the 1-4-3-3 system now being standardised across all FFA-controlled development centres.

Every coach is required to implement what they saw and what they heard at State level.

No ifs, no buts, no maybes.

For those still unable to accept the need for change, when the Joeys - the national under-17 team - were asked at the start of the week who knew how to play 1-4-3-3, not a single hand was raised. This, bear in mind, is a system used widely in Europe for player development and is recognised as the ideal configuration to teach tactical understanding.

The numerous variations of the system were explained in detail over the week, which was undoubtedly the highest level of instruction we have had in this country for a long time, perhaps ever. All suit the underlying principles of the evolving "Australian way" - being possession of the ball, building up play from the back, using creative combinations in attack, using the width of the pitch, fullbacks playing important roles in attack, the keeper being utilised where appropriate, and fast movement of the ball through constant player rotation and collective understanding. And, above all, to attack.

So we have a new national directive towards a proactive style of play, one which suits our cultural predilection to go forward and dominate, to be aggressive in sport, to win any contest.

Now when these coaches return to NTC competitions or take their state teams to national championships, their charges will be expected to play to the system, solve tactical problems on the field and demonstrate a high level of collective awareness and cohesion.

One reason our coaching at development level has been poor is because of a lack of cohesion. With no consistent curriculum adopted and enforced across the country, more than a few imposters have hidden behind a good sales pitch while teaching their young players absolutely nothing of value.

This has been magnified by most appointments being made at state rather than national level, leaving many of our best coaches disillusioned and excluded.

This era is fast coming to an end as accountability becomes the rule.

The old coaching pathway often looked like this: talk the talk, work your contacts, get a job, play politics, survive, appoint your mates to protect you, select players for all the wrong reasons to stay in the job, write numerous reports about how well you are doing, repeat process.

The new coaching pathway looks increasingly like this: undertake new licences, apply methodology in the best interests of the players, undergo regular reassessments, be judged on the quality of play and players rather than results, justify tactical and personnel decisions, be held to the delivery of the national curriculum, repeat process.

Last year it was too easy for poor coaches to blame their players. Next year, our finest young players will either demonstrate they have been coached well or the coach is gone.

No ifs, no buts, no maybes.


4-3-3 is an very good foundation for technical youth development, creates more combinations and specialisation of team positions. it is simply flexible for moving balls from each of the three main blocks of defence, midfield and forward positions and teaches how to attack with three upfront in combination. It is easily transferable to the other formations by moving one player from one block into another block. It is more competitive in the sense of skill development for youths. It is known also to be an highly effective counter formation to the 4-4-2 if used correctly with decent scouting knowledge.AllWhitebelievr2009-07-30 01:48:18
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

If you kept up to date with what was happening in NZ you would know that this system was implemented here during Paul Smally's time was was being tought to all the kids Feds teams as far back as 2005.

Personaly I believe you pick the best players and implement a system that suits them.
 

A dog with a bone :)

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
$.

Where it be?
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
nightz wrote:

If you kept up to date with what was happening in NZ you would know that this system was implemented here during Paul Smally's time was was being tought to all the kids Feds teams as far back as 2005.

Personaly I believe you pick the best players and implement a system that suits them.
 
 
Agree when you're talking about picking a team to win a competition.
 
When you're talking about developing players though, in an Academy or development system, it makes building a consistent curriculum a lot easier if you settle on a single formation.
 
Smalley's point was never that we always had to play 4-3-3 at FIFA tournaments.  It was that to ensure a conveyer belt of well educated players we had to teach a system and a series of positions/jobs to all our young players. 
 
4-3-3 offers the most flexibility, caters for a wider variety of players, and is internationally competitive.
 
Wonder what he's up to now old Small Pauley.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Allwhitebeliever tahnks for the article above........i beleive the game here in NZ has worse now than 20 years ago for many reasons and NZ Football do not know how its happened along with the view they have no idea how to solve that problem......

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
futbol wrote:

Allwhitebeliever tahnks for the article above........i beleive the game here in NZ has worse now than 20 years ago for many reasons and NZ Football do not know how its happened along with the view they have no idea how to solve that problem......

 
Worse in what way?
 
I'm genuinely curious, not having been around 20 years ago to compare (well, I was playing under 9s for Onslow but wasn't fully aware of the prevailing youth development policies of the time).
Smithy2009-07-30 15:38:24

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Not all schools and youth teams used 4-3-3 because they are not under NZS while Paul Smally was about. NZS had influence on Fed teams and national youth teams but not on clubs or schools. Youth development should be available for all youths not just the elite fed players. Paul Smally was also derailed by many when he introduce 4-3-3 as a development. I don't think he was that successful as you make him out to be. I have seen plenty of fed teams not using 4-3-3 over the time. I am not sure that it is set in concrete for fed teams.

For an example, it was never introduced to the old level one or level two coaching certificate courses which suppose to be catered for junior and youth and even senior soccer coaching. I am not sure what they are currently doing in the new coaching courses because they are again building/slowly progressing with the new coaching framework.AllWhitebelievr2009-07-30 15:52:01
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Nobody said Smalley successfully implemented 4-3-3.  But that was the idea.  In fact Smalley was a fairly major flop in the end, because he failed to get enough people on side.  Mostly because he was f*cking hard work to deal with.
 
To be fair, this new Aussie chap hasn't been successful yet either.  He's just got some media.  So we'll see.
 
 
Smithy2009-07-30 17:10:35

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
thats was a bit harsh
 
 
-better?
Smithy2009-07-30 17:10:54

Founder

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Isn't Smalley still in Canterbury?

Well, it would interesting to see how this Dutch-Aussie guy do because 4-3-3 is the best development formation for youth in my opinion because it forces the youth players to act and bring their football skills to specialise the positions and teaches them good lateral movement on and off the ball.AllWhitebelievr2009-07-30 17:25:44
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Isn't Smalley still in Canterbury?
 
Don't think so.  Worked as a consultant to other sports organisations on player development for a couple of years before moving to America and then I think back to the UK.  Not sure though.
Smithy2009-07-31 08:46:45

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
theres  a structure ??
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
uncloz wrote:
theres  a structure ??
 
Bits of one...
 
Smithy2009-08-05 09:15:21

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Wasn't there an official review of the NZFC? What happened there and was it ever released?

I let my guitar speak for me

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Still underway.  This season was always guaranteed.
 
To the same polished standard as NZFs last season ! Itll be terrific !
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
and was NOT released , it escaped !
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
its a league that has less and less credibility each season
 
Soccer NZ show very little innovation or commitment to it.
The crowds are poor indicating summer is not the time to play
There is no promotion relegation so you don't have as in previous times ambitious clubs fighting to get in to the league .Both Waitakere (previously Kelston) and Auckland City (Central United) both originated in the 3rd division of the northern league.Under this warped system this can no longer happen.
After this season scrap the league,extend the winter league- top 4 in the northern and central leagues plus 2 from the southern league form a new national league .Promotion /relegation and in future you play your way in.National league clubs must be solvent ,have a facilities programme,community scheme,qualified coaches plus other criteria that ensures their longevity otherwise they cannot compete in the league.
NZsoccer to facilitate funding and sponsorship for the league.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
NZF aren't funding the league and the sides they created yet you want them to organise more cash and coverage for the clubs they have no say in ?

Good luck with that.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
bobmorton wrote:
its a league that has less and less credibility each season
 
Soccer NZ show very little innovation or commitment to it.
 
So you've completed the NZF survey and expressed your views to them than Bob.

A dog with a bone :)

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
<!-- Start Member Post -->
its a league that has less and less credibility each season
 
Soccer NZ show very little innovation or commitment to it.
The crowds are poor indicating summer is not the time to play
There is no promotion relegation so you don't have as in previous times ambitious clubs fighting to get in to the league .Both Waitakere (previously Kelston) and Auckland City (Central United) both originated in the 3rd division of the northern league.Under this warped system this can no longer happen.
After this season scrap the league,extend the winter league- top 4 in the northern and central leagues plus 2 from the southern league form a new national league .Promotion /relegation and in future you play your way in.National league clubs must be solvent ,have a facilities programme,community scheme,qualified coaches plus other criteria that ensures their longevity otherwise they cannot compete in the league.
NZsoccer to facilitate funding and sponsorship for the league.
<!-- End Member Post -->
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
nightz
yes i have  just now!!
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Back on topic....

MAKE ALL FOOTIE IN NEW ZEALAND TOTALLY AMATEUR WITH NO EXCEPTIONS
(except for NZFC coaches and administrators and the Phoenix).

Money has always been the problem here, paying big dollars to rubbish players forcing clubs into dire financial circumstances. 

There should be no money at all paid to anyone who plays in New Zealand.  If this was done, instantly there would be plenty of cash to spend on player, coach and administrator development, improving facilities and increasing the quality of the NZFC, the senior mens and womens leagues and child and youth football.

As many of us will know,  NZFA, Soccer New Zealand and NZF have all squandered plenty of money reevaluating the game at all levels since the mid to late 90s and its debatable whether there as been any evidence to show that it has helped.

Most of the talented youth to come out on NZ in recent times has been tied into the prominent boys and girl schools, not really the clubs themselves due to many of them focusing on wining some semi pointless competition.

Move to only having three, or maybe four winter competitions, similar to how it used to be: Northern, Central, and Southern. 
Central potentially could be Taranaki, Gisborne, Manuwatu and Wellington or split with the South having the Central north island teams in a Upper Central competition and Wellington, Blenheim, Picton  and Nelson in a Lower Central competition similar to American East and West Conferences. 

This would have to be totally amateur, again with what little money that is available spent on developing mens and womens football, the clubs facilities and maybe even trying to work more with the public like they used to.  At this level even admin and coaching staff should not be paid.

In relation to the NZFC: 
It should be run in a similar manner to either the A-League or English Premier League but with ABSOLUTELY NO PLAYER PAYMENTS OR INCENTIVES.  This would basically mean that the NZFC clubs themselves run the competition and create their own marketing, rules, public awareness etc. NZF should only have a board representation ala Phoenix and nothing more.

Each club should also have a big emphasis on youth development, completely ignoring links to local clubs to stop the Auckland City/Central United and Waitakere United/City situation which hurts other regional clubs.

In relation th the Chatham Cup:
The Chatham Cup should be moved to later in the season so that the NZFC clubs can be in the competition as a sort of preseason, whilst also give clubs like Miramar, Wanderers, North Shore United etc the chance to play against NZs best.  This would also mean that the Cup would actually be going to NZs best amateur team.

Obviously players would have to weigh up being cup tied, deciding whether it would be better say to have a Cup run with Ngaruawahia or with Waikato, but this would definitely make NZ's oldest sporting competition far more alluring.
disco_mart2009-08-12 01:41:27
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Interesting.
 
Don't agree with your views on the Chatham Cup though. It's a Club competition, so the NZFC franchises shouldn't be involved. In my opinion.  What's the point of giving clubs the chance to play against "NZ's best", if all their best players are playing for an NZFC team?

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'm with Jag re the Chatham Cup but I'm completely with you on the key thread of your post which is that player payments need to be more forcefully discouraged.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Absolutely ....NZF doesnt have a clue , but wont let the league run itself ...thisll be the last season,  so lets make the most of it !
 
Smile while yer sinkin !
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Not opposed to player payments in NZFC, but at club level it is ludicrous.  Completely disagree on Chatham Cup - club competition for clubs only.  Couldn't have Nelson, Blenheim Picton and Wellington in same league or 'conference' or whatever you want to call it - travel costs would be horrendous, however pretty much agree with the rest.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
NZFC franchise owners remind me of Dole bludgers, They are to lazy to go out and get there own revenue and prefer to just sit on there arse's collection Government hand-outs.
And that my none friends is pure FACT.

NZFC is a amateur league? Gee people must laugh when they see them playing for free come the Club World Cup?.

When i see people saying the FFA is holding the Nixs ransom, I think they should look in there own back yard first, Just look what happen when Fever-Zone tried to govern supports after one "Beer chucking" scene. Public support dropped off.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
some excellent points Disco Mart, hope you make a submission to NZF, you have ideas worth listening to.
 
And I wonder if Barry Smith ever revived and put forward his "12 Association" model to replace the Federation structure?  one of the single best ideas and well-thought-out plans I'd ever heard in a New Zealand football context.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
convict wrote:
NZFC franchise owners remind me of Dole bludgers, They are to lazy to go out and get there own revenue and prefer to just sit on there arse's collection Government hand-outs.
And that my none friends is pure FACT.

NZFC is a amateur league? Gee people must laugh when they see them playing for free come the Club World Cup?.

When i see people saying the FFA is holding the Nixs ransom, I think they should look in there own back yard first, Just look what happen when Fever-Zone tried to govern supports after one "Beer chucking" scene. Public support dropped off.


Mate, if a player really wants to be a part of it he will go.  Of course travel cost would be covered and any lost salary/wages would come through the money that oceania's entrance recive by turning up.

As to the Chatham Cup, I was just throwing an idea out there to enliven the competition a bit.

Based on some of your comments I will tidy up what I said above slightly more and email it through to the NZFC.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
barry smith copied those ideas
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
bobmorton wrote:
barry smith copied those ideas


???? The name rings a bell.  Was he around in the 70s,80s,90s or is he just a leacher looking for other people ideas.  I don't mind any just so long that he sticks totally to what I said or comes up with something very different.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
He's been around for years, used to produce the NZ Soccer annual and from memory he is on the competitions review panel.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
He's been around for years, used to produce the NZ Soccer annual and from memory he is on the competitions review panel.


Now I remember, thanks HN.

If he's on the committee that's good.
Supporter world's best and worst football teams: Waikato/WaiBop, Kingz, Knights, Phoenix, The Argyle, The Whites & the All Whites

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
convict wrote:
NZFC franchise owners remind me of Dole bludgers, They are to lazy to go out and get there own revenue and prefer to just sit on there arse's collection Government hand-outs.
And that my none friends is pure FACT.

NZFC is a amateur league? Gee people must laugh when they see them playing for free come the Club World Cup?.

When i see people saying the FFA is holding the Nixs ransom, I think they should look in there own back yard first, Just look what happen when Fever-Zone tried to govern supports after one "Beer chucking" scene. Public support dropped off.
Agree wholeheartedly on the "none friends " quote....
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