Structure of football comps in NZ - your

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Anyway, back on topic. Can someone who is pro the club based league explain how they see it working and maybe set out what they see as the advantages over the NZFC?

3 x 8 team conference based leagues, Sth Island, Lower Nth Island and Upper Nth Island.

Kick off 2 rounds early March over 14 weeks. Top 2 in each conference then go through to National 6 team home and away play off series over 10 weeks. With the odd week off for Chatham Cup, Internationals etc. All done by end of September.

National round travel funded by NZ Football.

Strictly amateur, any hint of a player payment and you're out for 5 years.

Advantages over NZFC -

the biggest problem with the NZFC from my perspective is I support my own club first and foremost but with the NZFC I am then expected to go and support another "club" (and put my money into that as well) which I have no real buy in for after a season of involvement with my own club.

If my club wasn't good enough to make it through to the national round I would go and support the other 2 who did if they came from my region once we were out of the running.

And no summer football - sometimes we need a break.

Not a manufactured competition, far to many good players are side stepping the NZFC because of its meaningless nature and the all year round expectation that they will play.

Would create real competition between clubs, the heart beat of the game. They would really have to step up to attract and retain quality players. With no club based national competition in place this is falling by the wayside.

What's sight without sound? Love without peace? Copulation without conception?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Ronaldoknow wrote:

james dean wrote:

Anyway, back on topic. Can someone who is pro the club based league explain how they see it working and maybe set out what they see as the advantages over the NZFC?

3 x 8 team conference based leagues, Sth Island, Lower Nth Island and Upper Nth Island.

National round travel funded by NZ Football.

Strictly amateur, any hint of a player payment and you're out for 5 years.

Advantages over NZFC -

If my club wasn't good enough to make it through to the national round I would go and support the other 2 who did if they came from my region once we were out of the running.

And no summer football - sometimes we need a break.

Not a manufactured competition, far to many good players are side stepping the NZFC because of its meaningless nature and the all year round expectation that they will play.

Interesting. So you would support a competing winter club but not an NZFC club.

Also interesting that you say "attract and retain" players rather than "develop". That says a lot to me.

Far fewer players are "sidestepping" the NZFC than would be ruled out under your system when their club was eliminated.

A lot of sh*thouse players would be involved though.

Weaker competition overall.

Recipe for teams buying players.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Smithy wrote:

Ronaldoknow wrote:

james dean wrote:

Anyway, back on topic. Can someone who is pro the club based league explain how they see it working and maybe set out what they see as the advantages over the NZFC?[/QUOTE]

3 x 8 team conference based leagues, Sth Island, Lower Nth Island and Upper Nth Island.

National round travel funded by NZ Football.

Strictly amateur, any hint of a player payment and you're out for 5 years.

Advantages over NZFC -

If my club wasn't good enough to make it through to the national round I would go and support the other 2 who did if they came from my region once we were out of the running.

And no summer football - sometimes we need a break.

Not a manufactured competition, far to many good players are side stepping the NZFC because of its meaningless nature and the all year round expectation that they will play.

[/QUOTE]

Smithy wrote:

Interesting. So you would support a competing winter club but not an NZFC club.

Yep. NZFC clubs don't exist as true clubs as such and I hope they never do.[/QUOTE]

Smithy wrote:

Also interesting that you say "attract and retain" players rather than "develop". That says a lot to me.

Currently we have the best youth development programme running in the South Island with our Center of Achievement and Sporting futures academy (Ed Baronowski, Korosh Monseff, Gareth Turnbull) www.sportingfutures.co.nz so I took "development" as a given. In fact it has been so successful Mainland Football have set up an imitation to try and stop the flow of players to our club because of this setup, apparently by instigating the academy we are poaching players?

Having said that I've been invoved in youth development for years, mainly to the detriment of my own club who regularly saw the players snapped up by other clubs without development programs (and the cost that incurs) who then come and offer them free subs etc. to play for them. How can they do this? Simple, they don't have the expense of developing the players in the first place. Cheaper to "buy" than develop. Not that I am saying this is the right way to do it, just stating my experience. I hate to think of the hours I've spent helping fundraise for rep players, team trips etc only to see players walk away to a better offer.

[QUOTE=Smithy]Far fewer players are "sidestepping" the NZFC than would be ruled out under your system when their club was eliminated.

Really? Reading the Otago and Waikato threads it seems to me you could put better sides on the park from both those regions than they currently have. Same could apply here in Canterbury where the Dragons were whipped 4 -0 by a makeshift side of local discards in the week before the league started.

[QUOTE=Smithy]A lot of sh*thouse players would be involved though.

Yep. Just like now. Also some very good ones. Just like now.

[QUOTE=Smithy]Weaker competition overall.

Supposition. The old National League (club based) was a far superior competition to what we currently have.

[QUOTE=Smithy]Recipe for teams buying players.

This is currently happening. Although TW surely wouldn't be paying for Draper or Fifi? This is the biggest bugbear in New Zealand football and needs to be addressed. If players want pro contracts they should head off shore (Brent Fisher is a good example of a player at a lower level making a living out of the game). I can't see why it can't be policed by NZF. if they put more resources into this and let the clubs get on and develop the players we would move ahead a lot faster. They police club expenditure (at least of those that make the national round) and provide the funding for the travel involved, would create a better competition as clubs strove to achieve success. It is the competition that creates improvement, this doesn't exist in a fabricated league like the NZFC.

Another option is to scrap the franchise based league and turn it into a provincial league, again played over 10 - 12 weeks at the end of the winter league, not over the summer. Maybe provinces play midweek night games during the season regionally based to come up with the top 6 then play home and away at the end of the season? Again funded by NZ Football. No need to worry about clubs buying players in this instance and you get buy in from all clubs supporters in theory. Be interesting to see what the NZ Football review finally comes up with.

Ronaldoknow2009-11-29 17:04:46

What's sight without sound? Love without peace? Copulation without conception?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I just got the low down about what's happening in the northern premier league next season

- 16 teams (one round)

- Top 8 then Top 4

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Hmmm, interesting. Not a bad concept. Every game really counts in the first round. I guess in the top 8 second round venues are reversed? Great way to structure a really meaningful competition over the whole season. I like it. Any idea how the top 4 play off?

What's sight without sound? Love without peace? Copulation without conception?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I have heard top 8 and bottom 8 after the first round. Hadn't heard of top 4 though. But who knows, it could change 15 times before the season starts knowing the league organisers.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I think it sounds a great concept and will really work with a big league incorporating the north shore teams and the other northern league sides, be interesting too see where this years top 4, Lynn Avon, Melville, Eastern Subs and Papatoetoe finish in this new concept

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Ronaldoknow - great response to my points (although please learn to use quote tags!). I'll leave it there because we've pretty well put both sides of the case.

As an aside re Northern League (and this is relevant to Central League too) if anyone is really bored read your local Federation's rules of incorporation and you will find that Federations are only empowered to allow entry into competitions they run to clubs who are affiliated to them (so, not clubs in other Federations).

With that said, does anyone know if the Northern League is run by a particular Federation?

If it is it is probably unconstitutional. As is, arguably, the Central League (also arguably the Central League is run by a committee of clubs, and the Federation just facilitates it, which would be okay under the rules).

I point this out for no real reason other than to illustrate how poorly drafted all those rules were back in the day. If anyone knows the lawyers that did them, give them a slap from me!

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Smithy wrote:

Ronaldoknow - great response to my points (although please learn to use quote tags!). I'll leave it there because we've pretty well put both sides of the case.
[/QUOTE]

Meh. Have enough trouble keeping my avatar and banner in order, red ink is so much easier if somewhat confusing ........

[QUOTE=Smithy]I point this out for no real reason other than to illustrate how poorly drafted all those rules were back in the day. If anyone knows the lawyers that did them, give them a slap from me!

Probably all done on legal aide, either that or drawn up by any one of a half dozen quasi lawyers that any committee throws up with no reference to reality. Does this make the central league unlawful if it was administered solely by Central Football?

Just found out this week that our club will now be competing for junior players and coaches with our governing body (yes Mainland Football once again intend to enter elite development teams in local leagues). Need to check the local constitution to see if this is illegal as well. Does this happen in other areas?

What's sight without sound? Love without peace? Copulation without conception?

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Ronaldoknow wrote:

Not to the best of my knowledge.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Soley wrote:

I have heard top 8 and bottom 8 after the first round. Hadn't heard of top 4 though. But who knows, it could change 15 times before the season starts knowing the league organisers.

theyve got better people this year then....

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

"I think it sounds a great concept and will really work with a big league incorporating the north shore teams and the other northern league sides, be interesting too see where this years top 4, Lynn Avon, Melville, Eastern Subs and Papatoetoe finish in this new concept "

Why is it a good concept!! whats wrong with having proper leagues with promotion and relegation like everywhere else does.When administrators or CEO's don't know what to do, to justify their existence they re- structure!!! At all levels in NZ soccer we've had 20 odd years of re -structuring,we're now re- structuring the re- structures The standard of play is going downwards i watched Waitakere v Auckland both are a shadow of previous seasons!!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

2010 is an interim northern league season arrangement, to allow the northern league to get back to a full league structure accommodating the re-entry of US1 clubs after two years of being barred by their federation.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nzsportsprogrammes

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

thanks Bruce I can see the sense in that

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Bruce Holloway wrote:

It's a very good arrangement, imo. As someone from a Div. 1 club, it means that our whole season is effectively a play-off as our finishing position at the end of the season will determine in which Division of the NRFL we'll play in 2011.

Jag2009-12-02 09:13:07

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I've heard about 5 different scenarios for how the Northern League will run next year. As per usual it's a f**king shambles.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Must be if the details aren't filtering down to Under 19 keepers yet.

Cripes. What are they playing at!

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Smithy wrote:

Must be if the details aren't filtering down to Under 19 keepers yet.

Cripes. What are they playing at!

Think the structure has been finalised, Buffy. I think a few more US1 clubs going into Div. 1 quite late on in the process, and getting all the clubs to sign-off on the deal, has held up any final definitive final announcement on it.

Jag2009-12-02 10:16:07

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Managing transition and keeping everyone happy is difficult but I've found the northern league to be relatively well administered over the past two years.

My main complaint would be that clubs don't have enough say in the organisation and structure of the league though. There should be a league AGM every year, where clubs elect a policy and control body, which is answerable to those that pay the fees.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/nzsportsprogrammes

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Bruce, what you are advocating, re league Agm is what the CL clubs proposed/requested to Capital Football about 4 years ago.

However this request was quickly rejected by the then Capital Football Chairman.

Why not let the clubs set the rules/fees?

After all, is it not them that pay the federation administrators wages, or is it because the administrators feel that they are about to lose control of a league.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Quit right critter - its obvious and commonsense .it needs the clubs to convene a meeting without the administrators and break away like the football league did in england those many years ago

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Rules of No. 5 District Federation of New Zealand Soccer Incorporated:

Rule 7.7: To participate in the District Federation's competitions any Club must be, registered and affiliated with the District Federation.

Club means any Club (sic), whether incorporated or not formed and operating for the purpose of playing Soccer in copmetitions run and promoted by the District Federation and also means any Club or grouping of Referees and/or other officials and/or administrators, whether incorporated or not, established and operating within the Federation District (sic) in relation to competitions and activities promoted or controlled by the District Federation.

This rule clearly prohibits a Federation running cross-Federation competitions.

Section 19 of the Incorporated Societies Act 1908:

19 Restriction of operations of society

(1) If any society carries on or proposes to carry on any operation which is beyond the scope of the objects of the society as defined in its rules, the Registrar may give notice in writing to the society not to carry on that operation.

(2) If after the receipt of that notice the society fails or refuses to conform thereto, every officer of the society and every member of the committee or other governing body of the society shall be liable to a fine not exceeding

[$2] for every day during which that failure or refusal continues, unless he proves that the failure or refusal has taken place without his authority or consent.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Rules of No. 5 District Federation of New Zealand Soccer Incorporated:

Rule 7.7: To participate in the District Federation's competitions any Club must be, registered and affiliated with the District Federation.

This rule clearly prohibits a Federation running cross-Federation competitions.

Smithy,

Having a bit of a lull at work at present so thought I would throw some spanners in the works

Capital Football Objects - 3.2 states "Encourage and conduct competitions within the District Federation and with members of other District Federations"

NZF Rule 28 (Competitions) - 28.2 states "Teams affiliated to a District Federation shall not play against any other team affiliated to any other District Federation without first obtaining the consent of the Board (NZF)"

Consent was given to the Northern League and was obtained for the Central League at the time of its' resurrection

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Ah Mr Sole. Welcome to the forum.

Those other rules you quote are interesting, but don't help the Northern League or the Central League much.

Rule 3.2 that you have correctly quoted sounds like it might provide for those leagues. I'm sure that's how NZF (and maybe even their lawyers) read it. But it's far from clear that they intended that rule to trump Rule 7.7, which is explicit. Indeed I think you have to read 3.2 in light of 7.7 because 7.7 is absolutely clear. There is no ambiguity.

Rule 28.2 is relevant, but only as a side issue.

Essentially it says inter-Federation games must be sanctioned. That is an additional hurdle for sure, but the rule does not say "if NZF gives consent then rules 7.7 and 3.2 do not apply" which is what it would need to say if you wanted to use it to get around those rules.

I'd love to meet the lawyer who drafted both NZF's rules and the Federation rules. Because he or she has done a poor job.

What needs to happen to get around these rules is a separate body needs to run these inter-Federation leagues. Or of course the rules could be amended so they make sense and are written in English.

Smithy2009-12-03 15:26:25

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Smithy, question, who runs the Central League? (inter fed league)

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I sense a rhetorical question.

It is run by Capital Football.

Now you might argue that it's administered by Capital Football on behalf of a Central League committee, but you would have to show me some genuine evidence of the existence and activity of such a Central League committee.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Tis will be done.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Just a point of clarification.

I'm not seeking the removal of the Central League (arguably New Zealand's strongest winter league).

Only nerds like me really care about the rules. I'd like to see them tidied up so that they work though.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Smithy

You are showing that you have the potential to be a very successful lawyer - you manage to read into things the bits that are not there. Some advice (take it or not) would be that, when dealing with rules matters in sporting organisations, you must always have an overview of why the rule is there, or the intention of the rule (quoted to me by a senior Judge many years ago when I first moved in sports administration - he also added that there is no room for common sense when interpreting rules - we have seen many examples of that over the years)

CapFoot Rule 7.7 deals specifically with the status of participants in a local Federation's competition, whether players, referees or whatever - no more, no less. It would have been put there to stop non-Club teams participating - i.e. local Pub teams with no affiliations to the game being included in lower divisions with unregistered players and all the other baggage. I know that you could come back and say there are teams in the lower divisions who may qualify, but at least they have ties to a Club, pay membership fees (or they should), and are subject to the Club's rules and regulations.

Being a typical Law practitioner, I think you are reading into a little bit more into Rule 7.7. than is actually there.

The Rules are common throughout the 7 Federations and seem to have worked to date and were formulated by some high powered legal firm in Auckland.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Yeah nobody thought the player eligibility rule was a problem until recently either...

Saying "oh it's fine, it works okay and everyone gets on" is all well and good. But the fact remains that there are still holes in the rules big enough to drive a bus through. A big bus.

Smithy2009-12-04 11:09:56

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Rules are made for the fools to follow and smart ones to twist to fit.We are Alice in the wonderland where words mean what I want it to mean, not what they are intended to mean. That I remains the problem!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

AngusBeef wrote:

Well that clears that up ;-)

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Looks like the circuit wires at the back of my TV

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I just knew somebody would post that on here! Heh heh I don't think it's as complicated as that wiring diagram makes it look.

Looks like we'll be paying you a visit this season then, Buffy. Jag2009-12-08 12:01:52

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

NZFC: Auckland City 2-Al Ahli 0

Club Football: Central United 0 - Al Ahli 5

IMHO

The Thinker2009-12-10 14:52:51

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

No Wait actually Probably

Ba or AS Magenta 0 - Al Ahli 5

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I won't pretend to know enough aboutthe domestic game, but it does seem to me that despite a lack of funding the format of the NZFC is pretty good. I guess the recent success of Auckland City is a testament to that.

From a personal point of view though I would love to see a North Harbour side playing in there too.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

" it does seem to me that despite a lack of funding the format of the NZFC is pretty good. I guess the recent success of Auckland City is a testament to that."

How can you say that!!! Apart from Auckland and Waitakere ( who work the gaming charities to death) all clubs are struggling for money. The gates are lucky to be around 300.The standard overall has got gradually worse season by season.The players are ferried round in cramped cigar shaped planes.Waikato have just had 2 weeks without a game,then played a match and then now have 2 more weeks without a game!! great organisation.Its a joke!! yet if it was properly organised at the head of properly organised regional leagues with promotion relegation,as Auckland City have shown,the standard outside of NZ is generally attainable and we could move the game forward.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Like it was ten years ago when we didn't have a national league because club self-interest had made in unviable ?

Ridiculous call. What it needs is a slightly larger NZFC properly funded, run and assisted by NZ Football.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

ronbaynham wrote:

" it does seem to me that despite a lack of funding the format of the NZFC is pretty good. I guess the recent success of Auckland City is a testament to that."

Is you a lunatic?

1. Team Wellington turned a five figure profit last year.

2. What has the size of the planes they fly in got to do with anything? TW caught a bus to Napier for the first time ever last round, but so what? Would you rather they were rolling in learjets?

3. Agree re 2 week breaks for Waikato though, that's a bit of a shambles. Surely could be solved.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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