(The not-so-temporary quite-official) Gooner Thread

Mate I think this is a little bit over the top. Giroud had a bad day at the office on a crap pitch. Sanogo played worse at the Emirates on Saturday. Yet Giroud bagged 22 goals last season, and a bunch of assists. Sanogo bagged 4 in pre-season. I'd calm yourself.

Totally agree with this, thought he ruined the flow & didn't play advantage anywhere enough. He'll definitely miss the 2nd leg, but unsure on any more. 

I'm calm mate, but I didn't say anthing about last season just that Giroud's peformance this morning was the worst I've seen from an Arsenal striker, and that includes Sanogo. Still, he shouldn't be the starting striker at a club aiming for the title and it's ridiculous the only alternative we have is a guy who has never scored a league goal.

have to agree re:giroud. two basic chances he failed to finish.

I normally defend Giroud til I am blue in the face, but this is pretty bad:

Think he hasn't scored an away goal against any of the last season's top 7 either and it took until about halfway through last season until he first scored a league goal outside London. I usually defend him too but this morning was dire. He would be a good option off the bench, ideally he should have Sanogo's role and someone top class should be starting.

Anyway apparently Arteta left the ground in a protective boot so that doesn't sound good. Possibly blessing in disguise if it forces Wenger to sign someone? Or will Chambers just backup Flamini aswell as backing up Mertesacker and Debuchy?

This doesn't seem calm.

Hell I'd love another striker, especially someone of Cavani/Falcao quality. But they're a dime a dozen, and we don't seem to be chasing them when they are available (Higuain, Mandzukic). RE playing against the other top 3 last season, fair point, but do remember we were utter sh*t against top 3 as a whole, not just Giroud.

Giroud is not the kind of player who will win games on his own. He is the kind of player that gets on the end of team moves, and brings others into the play. I only saw one chance he bolloxed this morning, the chipped ball from Ramsey he missed. Everything else he had a defender up his jaxie.

Fair enough. It's just so frustrating having guys like Ozil and Sanchez, but not giving them a similar tier of player in front of them. It's like only doing half the job.

That's true. Also having players like Flamini behind them..

Wenger said Sanchez is supposed to be that alternative option to Giroud, at least once Walcott is fit - perhaps we should give the Ox a run down the right and Alexis down the middle? Arsene should really be taking a look at him at striker at some point soon you would think...

Giroud was pants in the games against bigger sides last season but so was the rest of our team. It's up to the whole side to address that this season. I believe only Cazorla scored a result-changing goal against the top five so everyone needs to step up. 

When our midfield is clicking Giroud is a great fit, no coincidence he was heavily involved with most of our best goals last season, but it's key to have that alternative option which hopefully Alexis and/or Walcott will be able to bring. Giroud is not a guy who can change a game in an instant by himself like that. 

Have to say in hindsight he was a steal at 12mil though. 

You're right Paul, he is what he is, and I don't think anyone should expect him to be that game changer. His number one asset is his ability to include other players. In saying that, it sounds like he was bloody awful today.

I really think that Cazorla should be getting played in the middle, especially when we have no Ozil in the squad. Maybe we will see that in the second leg.

Not good enough, will never be a high level player I think; expect to see him sold in the next transfer window or at the end of the season.

Would like to see him given a chance but it doesn't seem like Wenger rates him.

He may still be. Would have expected him to get more time in pre-season if Wenger was serious about giving him a chance. Wait and see I guess.

Sounds about right to me?

The issue is that 16 is nowhere near enough for the starting striker of a team with title ambitions. One thing Wenger has always made sure we have had is a top class striker, until now.

Who was top scorer at Chelsea last year?

Only 5 players scored more goals in the League than Giroud last year. 4 of those come from 2 teams, and the other one was a designated penalty taker for his club. Goals scored doesn't tell the whole story nor does any stat taken in solitary context. Giroud makes us a more dangerous team going forward, as even if he isn't scoring he is making space by dragging defenders for others to score.

yep, he scored 1/2 his goals against the top 10, the other half vs the bottom 10. 50/50 split, its not like he is a flat track bully.

Who have we had sine Henry?

RvP we got one good season out of, that's been it.

Suarez scored 31 goals in the Premier League last season. 22 of those goals were against the bottom 10, a much more telling number of a 'flat track bully'

Bottom 10 vs Top 10 stats and the like are an odd way to determine if a striker is good or not. Top 10 teams concede a lot less goals otherwise they wouldn't be in the top 10... does anyone ever consider that?

When van persie hit 30 league goals in his last season for us, 20 were against the bottom half. 

When adebayor hit 24 league goals in 07/08, 16 were against the bottom half.

Jono has posted Suarez' breakdown from last season which is similar.

The year before last, van Persie scored 14 of his 26 for ManU against the bottom half.

I could go on, testing this against Aguero, Rooney and all the top strikers, I'm sure the stats will be similar. 

This suggests to me that scoring half his league goals against the top 10 last season is actually something Giroud should be commended for, rather than beaten down with... 

Hazard with 14, which kind of backs up my point doesn't it? They didn't win the league.

Should rephrase that if you're starting striker is only a 16 goal man then you need 2 or 3 others in the squad who can get a similar number. This is what Man City had. What also fucked us was having a 2nd striker who has never scored a competitive goal. Hopefully this season, if they remain fit, Ramsey an Sanchez can score a similar number of goals to Giroud. Walcott could make a big difference too.

Guess the point really is that if you look back through the last few years, the team who has won the league has usually had a player who has scored 25+ and another who has managed 15+. There are exceptions like Man City last season with three 15-20 goal players but usually that holds true and would have been the case for Liverpool if Gerrard hadn't slipped and they hadn't imploded at Palace. We have the 15+ man but lack the league winning striker.

One and a half seasons to be fair but we always had him. It wasn't necessarily Wenger's fault he was always injured but he always looked class when available. The first season post Henry we got 30 goals out of Adebayor and should have won the league. I wonder what Eduardo could have become if it wasn't for the horrific injury. He was just starying to become important and was a really clinical finisher. We've always had a striker that you knew would score a lot of goals if they stay fit but after 2 seasons you still don't feel that with Giroud.

Agreed. 

Without a big 30 goal striker we do need and expect others to contribute with goals. But our squad is nicely set up for that - Sanchez, Giroud, Ramsey and Walcott are all 15+ season goalscorers. Poldi too, but he may not end up being here this season...

We also have a good second tier of scorers in the Ox, Ozil, Cazorla and even the likes of Wilshere who knows where the goal is. And then Arteta is our peno-taker.

Plenty of areas for the goals to come from. If we put in the performances they will flow, these guys all have the ability. 

Well yeah. If we don't have the 25+ goal striker then we're going to need the likes of Ramsey, Sanchez and Walcott to score 15+ backed up by people like Podolski, Ox and Cazorla managing 7-10. Would do us the world of good for Ozil and Wilshere to add goals to their games.

Absolutely.

Ozil got 7 last season which wasn't too bad, I expect him to kick on with that now though. 

Wilshere looks to have quality in front of goal, based on the handful he scored last season, just needs the confidence and calmness that Ramsey has been able to add to his game. Fabregas was the same, barely scored in his first 2-3 seasons but then they started flowing. 

We haven't had a world-class centre forward since Henry and we haven't won the league since then either. RVP was class and that was the closest we came to winning it. Giroud is a good footballer but not one good enough to win the league. As for saying he makes us look a better team going forward, there is no way I'll go with that. Demba Ba would do a better job than he does for us. Agree with ajc on this, he should be backup to someone of higher quality. 

The only way we might scrape through is if Ramsey and Sanchez bang a lot in and do it for us against the bigger teams.

Demba Ba was available for 5 million and publicly expressed his desire to join Arsenal. Instead we tried to get him on loan from Chelsea in the next window.

Ramsey shows there is hope for everyone:

^ Shows the difference confidence makes. I saw a quote from him that said he never realised how much time he had in front of goal until last season; can see it in that video.

Closest we came to winning it was actually last season. And closest time before that was with Adebayor leading the line in 07-08.

van Persie is obviously of the quality you are talking about yet we weren't able to win it with him for 8 seasons - a top centre forward doesn't bring you the league, a top team does. However we have improved in all areas in our team in the last 2 seasons except for centre forward, so I guess it's only natural we're having this argument. 

One thing though - it does seem odd that we're all no longer satisfied that Sanchez is the answer. Is he not really a striker then? Are we going to play him wide right all season? If yes, what does that mean for Walcott?

With Giroud clearly not fully fit and Sanogo ijured, Sanchez would have played in the middle yesterday if that's where Wenger wanted him wouldn't he? His comments seem to to suggest he'll play wide so my hope is Walcott is given an extended chance at striker.

Fair points statistically, though when the best we have finished is 3rd and we get embarrassed by the top teams then I struggle to count them.

A top team has a top centre-forward, no top team can win it without one.

I think Sanchez will be of great benefit when Ozil returns. Wenger I can't see playing him through the middle though and Walcott does not look a centre-forward at all to me. I would play Walcott and Sanchez wide with a new centre-forward up top.

Wenger's comments on Sanchez were that he bought him because he can play wide, up top in a 4-4-2, or he can lead the line as an alternative to Giroud. He specifically said he would be playing wide right in Walcott's absence. 

So unless Wenger has changed his mind I still expect to see Sanchez have a go at striker at some point. He does play there for Chile remember.

Do I now have to go through every season of the Premier league and show all the times a team has won the league with no one scoring over 20 goals?

If you really want to, though I'm saying that a team won't win the league without a top centre-forward rather than someone that scores 20+ goals.

I'm guessing you think we can win it with Giroud or you're trying to say that you think Giroud is world-class?

I am saying that I think we can win it with Giroud, or someone of similar level, I don't think a World Class centre forward is needed. 

I don't know how you can think that. Unless Sanchez and Ramsey have incredible seasons I can't see us altering the trend.

Here's a list of the last 10 champions and their top 2 strikers:

2013-2014 Man City - Aguero, Dzeko

2012-2013 Man Utd - RVP, Rooney

2011-2012 Man City - Tevez, Aguero

2010-2011 Man Utd - Rooney, Berbatov

2009-2010 Chelsea - Drogba, Anelka

2008-2009 Man Utd - Rooney, Tevez

2007-2008 Man Utd - Rooney,Tevez

2006-2007 Man Utd - Ronaldo,Rooney

2005-2006 Chelsea - Drogba, Crespo

2004-2005 Chelsea - Drogba, Kezman

2003-2004 Arsenal - Henry, Bergkamp

Giroud and Sanogo aren't looking so good now are they...If Sanchez plays in the middle as you have said paul, I would look forward to seeing how it goes as I would rather him there than Giroud against the top teams.