Finn Surman (Portland Timbers | USA)

Might as well start a thread for him, hopefully he makes his break thru to regular football this season.

https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/sportstalk/audio/finn-surman-its-been-the-largest-crowds-anyone-in-the-team-has-played-in-front-of/

Surman was ruled out of New Zealand’s second match against Tunisia after copping an accidental boot to the head from club captain Alex Rufer during a training session in Cairo.

He returned from Egypt looking like a mummy with his head heavily bandaged and was deemed “touch and go” for Sunday’s match for the Phoenix at Sky Stadium.

“The ball popped up and I went quite low with my head and he flicked the ball over my head and got me briefly on the follow through and just cut it open,” Surman explained.

“It was a complete accident.”

Procrastinixing

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350265615/text-changed-everything-wellington-phoenix-defender-finn-surman

Any ideas on who sent the text? My money would be on Josh Laws

Clayton Lewis? But I like your guess about Laws too

Being wanted by Phil Neville is pretty cool and a good reference to have if he can impress in the MLS

Wellington Phoenix defender Finn Surman is set to sign for MLS side Portland Timbers. Wellington will pick up a nominal fee for the centre-back who has a year left on his contract. [ftbl]https://t.co/UB8aVihFlR

— A-League Hub (@AleagueHub) July 6, 2024

Surprising rumour if true. Welsh heritage so I’m assuming UK passport, and good enough for The Championship or L1

The attraction to be coached by Phil Neville?
Timbers home ground Providence Park is a cool venue I’ll say that. Passionate fans

MLS was a good jumping off point for Nelsen. Perhaps he wants to play in the US? Imagine having that choice! Not until recently could many kiwi players imagine clubs wanting to bring them in. Great job the Nix and the lads.

It's a shame we are not gonna get much for him. Gotta hope he does well over there and that UK Passport gets a few Championship sides sniffing in a season or two.

Very bad business from the Nix if the "nominal" part is true. Getting big fees is the whole point of our business model.

Can someone explain why would the fee be low?  Who decides the fee? 

Procrastinixing

Can someone explain why would the fee be low?  Who decides the fee? 

Procrastinixing

Can someone explain why would the fee be low?  Who decides the fee? 

He's got 1 year left on his current deal, and iirc clubs can start talking to players within the last 6 months of their contract.

If the Nix ask for too much to begin with it would ward off interested parties, and possibly annoy the player as well. The other club/s could then just come back in 6 months and negotiate with the player who would then leave on a free.

Basically the sweet spot is to have players with 2-3 years left remaining on their contracts. That allows far greater negotiating power from the selling club, driving the price up. Also handy to have more than one interested party which could drive up the asking price too.

Procrastinixing

Can someone explain why would the fee be low?  Who decides the fee? 

When they say "Nominal Fee", they mean they're going to pay sweet FA. Possibly around 25k - 50k type of stuff. Going by transfer fees paid these days, Finn would be worth at least $1 Million in Europe. He's an international, young and on the "up" very much. 

I don't blame the club for not blocking his progress which was always on the cards, but then, the whole point of being a selling club is to sell your prized assets at a decent and appropriate profit, not gifting them away.

I doubt it’s as low as you suggest but still, at the very least the Phoenix need to argue for a healthy fee when he is sold on.

loyalgunner

I doubt it’s as low as you suggest but still, at the very least the Phoenix need to argue for a healthy fee when he is sold on.

Giuseppe Bovalina from Adelaide to Vancouver earlier this year was roughly $200,000-$250,000 off the top of my head - He was only a scholarship player for Adelaide at the time. 

You'd hope we'd receive more than that to be honest...

Jake Girdwood-Reich from Sydney to St Louis was like $1.3 million or something like that. He had 2 years to run on his contract at Sydney though.

NIX might go - have him for free, but we want a future transfer fee clause - who knows?

loyalgunner

I doubt it’s as low as you suggest but still, at the very least the Phoenix need to argue for a healthy fee when he is sold on.

20% of any future transfer fee's as payback for lowballing the club.

What erks me is that the quote is "Nominal Fee", NOT "Modest Fee" or "Decent Fee" or even "Fantastic Fee". 

Could be a nominal up front fee with the achievable add-ons that Gilly mentioned in the last pod? I'm sure there'll be a sell on clause too that Surman is a good chance of fulfilling.

19 year Bovalina did pay 21 games for Adelaide 

I’m guessing the Nix have yes negotiated a good percentage of future transfer fees. All parties hoping Surman ends up in Europe in a few years

Paulsen hits his add ons, Nix from memory will get about $2M in total basically double the initial fee

From a business cashflow perspective locking in some future income (yes nothing guaranteed) not a bad idea. They won’t have 3 high quality young players to sell every year like 2024. Could be awhile before it happens again

It could be falsely reported.
It could be a release clause.

I trust the club to get a fair valuation - they did for Waine, they did for Paulsen. They are trying to run the business smartly.

If they get 50-100k that’s still paying one salary at least. 

But yeh it’s a potential dent in the Nix business model if contracts are run down and the club has a weak bargaining position. 

I think Gil mentioned that this is an issue for the club in the women’s game. The players don’t want to sign new contracts if they want to try to leave. 

Anyway until we know. This nominal fee is also likely there to temper expectations after several high fees from players whom Finn is no less valuable then. 

maynardf

It could be falsely reported.
It could be a release clause.

I trust the club to get a fair valuation - they did for Waine, they did for Paulsen. They are trying to run the business smartly.

I'm thinking the fact that Piney, Rollo & Voerman have all been very quiet on this probably indicates that something might be amiss. Usually they'd be all over this type of speculation.
 
Something doesn't add up for mine.

**Edit - Disregard the three previous sentences in this post**

😅

Nix have little leverage given Surman's contract is almost up. Talay deserves a lot of the blame for playing Payne and Laws ahead of Surman in his last season, Surman already looked the goods in the season before that when he partnered Wootton. No wonder Surman wasn't keen to sign an extension when he was getting no game time, and now it is too late. Perhaps Nix should have tried really hard to get Surman to extend his contract by a year 6 months ago by offering a big pay increase. 

I think Surman is more likely than Paulsen or Old to reach the very top and it is going to hurt when he goes for almost nothing, the Nix need these big transfer fees now more than ever. 

We don’t know the whole situation. Let’s wait and appraise the actual facts before having strong opinions. 

The guy still has a full year on his contract to go which is a long time in football when managers need results.

12 months doesnt warrant a transfer fee discount to 50-100k.

I find that fee hard to believe unless it is the release clause.

No one would have a release clause that low.

He's cheap because his contract is running out. Happens.

But at least regardless of clauses we know any future sales we will always get a cut til the day he retires!

If it is Portland he may not play that much before their MLS season finishes in Oct-Nov. If they have an already settled backline he may just play out the season for their reserve team in MLS Next Pro. Tuiloma spent 1-2 seasons in their reserve team

2025 season to start around March, in theory he might not play that much for them before his current Nix deal expired. So one angle could be for a MLS club he might have to have a cheapest sign on fee. All about the add ons 

Or maybe he would go straight into their match day squad post Olympics.

https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/a-league-starlet-on-cusp-of-mls-switch-609512

Sitting sixth on the Western Conference ladder with 30 points from 22 games, Portland are looking to bolster a back line which has already leaked 38 goals this campaign, worse only than basement battlers Sporting KC and San Jose.

If this is true its quite a dissapointing transfer all round. We should have had him tied up years ago. This is a good move for Sutton but not Surman, who I think has far greater potential.

He'll be often unavailble for the AWs, if he doesn't set the MLS on fire you can kiss goodbye to 20% sell on fees, if he does get sold on, most of the coin goes to them, not us, and his first move really should be to Europe. Only Nelsen and S. Elliott have found success in Europe by going MLS first.  

I just hope some UK based club gets wind of this and starts a bidding war.

Marto

If this is true its quite a dissapointing transfer all round. We should have had him tied up years ago. This is a good move for Sutton but not Surman, who I think has far greater potential.

He'll be often unavailble for the AWs, if he doesn't set the MLS on fire you can kiss goodbye to 20% sell on fees, if he does get sold on, most of the coin goes to them, not us, and his first move really should be to Europe. Only Nelsen and S. Elliott have found success in Europe by going MLS first.  

I just hope some UK based club gets wind of this and starts a bidding war.

Sutton ain't near MLS standard. Certainly for someone without a Green Card.
He's a steady ALM level player. Any overseas interest in him, I'm guessing will be around L1/L2 level at best.

NZ's history of players in the MLS ain't huge, so 2 guys (Nelsen & Elliott) going from there to the EPL is a pretty decent record. And coach Neville will know better than most, what Surman needs to do to achieve the same.

As someone else posted given that Talay almost completely bypassed Finn in season 22/23, very hard to get him to extend his contract, when he didn't know if he'd want to stay around or not. There were even rumours of the Nix looking for a 2nd visa CB (alongside Wootton) 12 months ago. The article below from Sept last year.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/nz-teams/132889451/finn-surman-bounces-back-after-finishing-second-wellington-phoenix-season-on-the-outer
Surman arrived in the under-23 camp just after making his second start in a row for the Phoenix in the Australia Cup as English import Scott Wootton’s centre back partner, and with new coach Giancarlo Italiano backtracking on plans to add another import centre back, it is looking like he could start there when the A-League Men season begins in late October.

Sutton is an interesting case. There was a point with Talay where he was one of the best players in the team, was carrying the team almost and was shoehorned into a central midfield role to take on more responsibility.

He was fire. 

He’s had a couple of injuries. Then LKH got the start from Chief. And I appreciated that too. His headed assist was so good. 

Sutton had a good partnership with Wayne too for assists. 

Then again at one point Callan Elliot was our best defender. But for some reason can’t get traction overseas. Perhaps some have never seen Neville or Lahm and think he lacks size. 

I honestly thought that Sutton could be as good a player as Old, but it feels like he’s been a bit out of the spotlight or not quite had that sharpness. Perhaps he’s still a bit confused about where he fits best. He’s very attack minded. 

You look at McGarry at CC and sometimes it’s just having a coach who sees exactly what you can do and fashions a role for you. Or finding a team where you click with the personalities. 

Sutton is someone who could definitely do a job at a higher level, but just needs to straighten it all out or simplify his game and get back to where he was prior to covering the midfield and injuries. 

Plus I’m sure he could score more goals, but belting it from outside the box hasn’t achieved that. Maybe with a higher sample size in a longer season it would, but I feel he needs to either get into the box or place his shots to beat the keeper rather than just blast them. Libby too I guess! What did Montgomery say to McGarry?

Long story short Sutton’s level and potential is unclear. It could be quite decent.

Sutton IMO can be as good as Old - he has the ability to beat a man, is very quick, probably more two footed and is getting stronger on the ball.

Injuries have hampered him for the last few yeras - but he is more than capable of playing at a higher level.

Why is this now a Sutton thread?

Hadnt read this before the other transfer thread. Can anyone confirm whether the MLS actually allow sell on clauses? If not, get them to fudge.

They have real weird complicated stuff that can go on when transfers are made between MLS teams

WanderingSheep

Hadnt read this before the other transfer thread. Can anyone confirm whether the MLS actually allow sell on clauses? If not, get them to fudge.

I would assume they do sign players with sell on clauses but they would only trigger when a player is sold by the MLS to an overseas club. For intra-league moves, sell on fees in the MLS would be a nightmare to try and work out.

I mean, what is 10% of this trade worth for example?
 

TRANSFER TRACKER STATUS: Trade

So if Surman goes to the MLS and bounces around MLS clubs for the next 15 years, we wouldn't see a dime of any sell on. He would need to transfer outside the MLS for any more money to head our way.