Wellington Phoenix Men

Coaching Angst (it's one result away)

514 replies · 2,475 views
about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Does the coach have to be a kiwi?

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I can only think of two options that are and we already have one of them, and the other was here last season.

How's my driving? - Whine here

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Maybe we should look further afield?
The standard of championship or even league one coaches would be pretty high. At least they are professionals
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

further afield, why would a crap coach from a league further afield be any better??? We aren't exactly going to be able to afford to pay a decent coach from Europe?

Queenslander 3x a year.

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah I suppose you have to think who do we replace him with? (if you were thinking about giving him the push). RH is doing an OK job, I'd give him 6/10.
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
theprof wrote:

further afield, why would a crap coach from a league further afield be any better??? We aren't exactly going to be able to afford to pay a decent coach from Europe?

 
Who said anything about getting a crap coach, think positive man.
League one
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Yeah I suppose you have to think who do we replace him with? (if you were thinking about giving him the push). RH is doing an OK job, I'd give him 6/10.
 
I'll give him 3/10 and only because hes sold lotsa t shirts
It will take a while to put together a replacement list, but will.
 
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
If you are a successful League One coach, you are hoping to do enough to get picked up by a Championship or Premier League team, why would you come here ?

Unless you are Richard Money, Steve McMahon, Paul Nevin or Terry Butcher... all resounding successes.
Hard News2009-01-13 16:11:18

How's my driving? - Whine here

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
what happened to paul ince? he will do - whoever he is i hope he dosnt play this boring un creative circus we have produced in the last 2 years - time to move on
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Last year we were very creative at times.
 
un creative in defence - i will give herbert a dollar for the improved defending this year but man o man we are sooo boring to watch
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
But on a positive note... I did get a great night sleep on Sunday - I'd nodded off after less than an hour...

Who said these Sunday evening/night games were crap???
E + R + O

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
creative in defence? wtf?
You know we belong together...

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oska wrote:
creative in defence? wtf?


Must be thinking of Karl Dodds stepovers from the jets game? Creative defence!


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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
pissed off that I missed those
You know we belong together...

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think some people are being too hard on the coach...Ok our attack is fairly blunt but think of the attacking players that were recruited or tried to recruit at the seasons start.
 
The loss of Porter was a huge blow....that dragged on for too long and we missed the window of oportunity to get another gun striker. then Gao...who pretty much everyone thought was a great signing turned out to be a dog! Then Kwasnik...who should have been the experianced backup striker/winger turned out to be a dog. Coveny was past it and the young'uns Costa and Draper are not up to good A-League level yet. Troy is young and still developing.
 
The plan would not have been to have Smeltz alone up front. Think what we would have done to Sydney if we had Porter and Smeltz up front being fed by Leo and Gao on the top of his game.
 
One of the main reason our attack has been crap is that the some of the attacking players we have in the squad are too young and inexperianced or out of form or past it or plainly not good enough. You can't blame the coach.
 
When we sum up this season the biggest failure will have been the loss of Porter and the inability to sign an adequate replacement for him.!!!!!
 
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
zinidane wrote:
I think some people are being too hard on the coach...Ok our attack is fairly blunt but think of the attacking players that were recruited or tried to recruit at the seasons start.
 
The loss of Porter was a huge blow....that dragged on for too long and we missed the window of oportunity to get another gun striker. then Gao...who pretty much everyone thought was a great signing turned out to be a dog! Then Kwasnik...who should have been the experianced backup striker/winger turned out to be a dog. Coveny was past it and the young'uns Costa and Draper are not up to good A-League level yet. Troy is young and still developing.
 
The plan would not have been to have Smeltz alone up front. Think what we would have done to Sydney if we had Porter and Smeltz up front being fed by Leo and Gao on the top of his game.
 
One of the main reason our attack has been crap is that the some of the attacking players we have in the squad are too young and inexperianced or out of form or past it or plainly not good enough. You can't blame the coach.
 
When we sum up this season the biggest failure will have been the loss of Porter and the inability to sign an adequate replacement for him.!!!!!
 


Quality Post there Zini

I'll follow that up in that we have failed to create chances that appear simple like other teams. The Sydney goal that was scored, was a simple wall pass.... I mean a 1 - 2. Why can't we do that?
It always seems like the goals we have scored have been... I'm not sure how to describe them but a chip from 25 out on the angle by Smeltz, or a groin in from Leo or a fumble on the line or a wonder strike by Smeltz from 25 on the angle. An element of luck or an element of 'holy sh*t'. Felipes goal last year with that 30 yard boomer in the barn comes to mind

I would also say our season has suffered from that and a lack of a second strike power. I draw alot of similarities from basketball because there are some parallels between the haves and the have nots. Teams simply double marked Smeltz because the other players on the park for the Phoenix, were never going to make you pay. If we were a basketball team, it would be like the Lakers Kareem without Magic, the Celtics Larry without Kevin McCale or the Bulls Michael without Pippen. Those teams won championships (plural) because they could hurt you many ways. With a lack of a second option, you can afford to double the main man and force the ball elsewhere because the other players don't have that 'X' factor to really make you pay. An immediate A-League team that comes to mind is Danny Allsopp and Archie Thompson (and the other options that they have)

Some people dismiss Smeltz as being not good enough to play anywhere else and fair enough based on what he did in England. But he has been consistently good for 2 seasons now. That alone shows its not just some purple patch but a man that has ability and hence why he is is a hot property. We are really going to feel the effects of him leaving if we do not recruit well and I would say the fortunes of the Phoenix next year fall squarely on how well we recruit.
Poorly and we have no right to have expectations. Very well and we should challenge for the 2-4 position.
Agent 472009-01-13 21:12:47
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
To all of the above, yes, I agree. I would also add that I believe Ricki can produce an attractive brand of football, given the right combination of players. At times during both seasons I've found myself exclaiming in surprise "sh*t, we're playing well today!". Close passing, attacking runs, dribbling, one-twos, shots from distance - all the stuff which makes a team hard to play against and also great to watch.
 
What's disappointing to me is that Ricki so often seems to settle for the meat-and-potato style of play - you know, grab that ugly/lucky goal and then soak up the pressure. And if you are using these tactics then you really don't need players who can build dynamic counterattacks. End result: slow motion football, results ground out and everyone trying to decide which defender will be Man of the Match.
 
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think we really lack a midfielder who can run the show and without that we're down to getting the ball forward quickly and hoping our attcking players can do something.  Our midfielders are really defenders who feed the forwards, without creativity in the middle of the park (which Felipe brought at times last year) we aren't going to be an attractive team.  I don't see anyone in the squad who can do that job so we're playing the one style of play that suits the presonnel that we have.
 
I think Ricki has done an excellent job of getting results with a very different group of players than last year.  His recruitment was probably on a par with the good pick ups outweighing the bad.
 
I think we'll see less changes next season which should help, we're hopefully only going to be fine tuning our playing squad rather than a complete overhaul, that's definitely going to help.  The players and coach know much more what to expect and they'll have played together before.
james dean2009-01-14 01:20:40

Normo's coming home

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
If you are a successful League One coach, you are hoping to do enough to get picked up by a Championship or Premier League team, why would you come here ?

Unless you are Richard Money, Steve McMahon, Paul Nevin or Terry Butcher... all resounding successes.


Exactly! if you've been successful in league one in Europe why on earth would you want to come to the a-league - surely that would be considered a backward step, plus a drop in $$$$$

Queenslander 3x a year.

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
theprof wrote:
Hard News wrote:
If you are a successful League One coach, you are hoping to do enough to get picked up by a Championship or Premier League team, why would you come here ?

Unless you are Richard Money, Steve McMahon, Paul Nevin or Terry Butcher... all resounding successes.


Exactly! if you've been successful in league one in Europe why on earth would you want to come to the a-league - surely that would be considered a backward step, plus a drop in $$$$$
 
Theprof, the only people making such suggestions have absolutely no idea how the world works.

Normo's coming home

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
I think we really lack a midfielder who can run the show and without that we're down to getting the ball forward quickly and hoping our attcking players can do something.  Our midfielders are really defenders who feed the forwards, without creativity in the middle of the park (which Felipe brought at times last year) we aren't going to be an attractive team.  I don't see anyone in the squad who can do that job so we're playing the one style of play that suits the presonnel that we have.
 
I think Ricki has done an excellent job of getting results with a very different group of players than last year.  His recruitment was probably on a par with the good pick ups outweighing the bad.
 
I think we'll see less changes next season which should help, we're hopefully only going to be fine tuning our playing squad rather than a complete overhaul, that's definitely going to help.  The players and coach know much more what to expect and they'll have played together before.
 
Spot on. In the short time he was here, Fred showed (at times) what a huge difference having someone creative in midfield makes. At the moment, we're a team of grafters, so we're doing what we're best suited to.

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Man, I can't believe how many sensible comments were posted on this thread in just one page!!!



Well done Zinidane, Agent 47, Stop Out, Jag and JD.el grapadura2009-01-14 10:52:17
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Man, I can't believe how many sensible comments were posted on this thread in just one page!!!



Well done Zinidane, Agent 47, Stop Out and JD.
 
 
What about me? 

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
My apologies. Didn't check the last page before posting my comment.
Edited accordingly.
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I was joking, honest! I was only agreeing with the others.
 
I concur, top posts from the geentlemen you (originally) mentioned

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
LOL, you guys are funny.
 I think most of you only read what you want to hear,
Maybe you guys above should get a room
I'd say the acceptance of mediocrity is alive and well in my homeland.
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
auskiwi wrote:
LOL, you guys are funny.
 I think most of you only read what you want to hear,
Maybe you guys above should get a room
I'd say the acceptance of mediocrity is alive and well in my homeland.


Having recently returned, I can confirm your suspicions

E + R + O

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
auskiwi wrote:
LOL, you guys are funny.
 I think most of you only read what you want to hear,
Maybe you guys above should get a room
I'd say the acceptance of mediocrity is alive and well in my homeland.
 
Accepting that, with what we have at the moment, we're doing the best we can? It's what we've got, there's not a lot we can do about it at the moment, apart from accept it. What would you suggest? That we suddenly find 17 World Class players by the weekend? I'm not convinced that being in with a play-off shot, however unlikely, with 2 games left could be considered as mediocrity.
 
Won't get any argument from me that we need more quality in the team. That's obvious. Won't get any argument from me that it would be great to see us playing more attractive and attacking football. Won't get any argument from me that Ricki has made mistakes.
 
However, I'm not going to get drawn into your pro/anti Ricki argument and I dunno what transpired pre-season regarding who we tried to sign and didn't get, apart from Porter and that wasn't down to us, so I can't make any informed comment on how that was handled.
Jag2009-01-14 11:47:20

Apparently I'm apathetic, but I couldn't care less.

"Being a Partick Thistle fan sets you apart. It means youre a free thinker. It also means your team has no money." Tim Luckhurst, The Independent, 4th December 2003

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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Sometimes you have to face reality and do what you can with the players in the squad. last year under Ricki we quite often played an attractive brand of football and scored a lot of goals. Trouble was the personel we had in defense were not up to it....this year we recruited some good defenders and as a result we are a lot harder to break down and are in playoffs contention.

this year most of the attacking players are not up to the standard required...end result lowest number of goals scored in the comp. Look at the Jets...champions last year...last this year. Same coach...whats the difference.? Its the players. Coaches can't work miracles..they can only prepare who they have to the best of their ability.
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
StopOut wrote:
 
What's disappointing to me is that Ricki so often seems to settle for the meat-and-potato style of play - you know, grab that ugly/lucky goal and then soak up the pressure. 
Maybe that comes from being at or near the bottom of the table all of the time. There is no  real midtable in this league, you are either 2 points from the playoff or 2 points from the wooden spoon. Unless you are clear at the top, you are unlikely to be putting much emphasis on pure skill and looking attractive.
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
StopOut wrote:
 
What's disappointing to me is that Ricki so often seems to settle for the meat-and-potato style of play - you know, grab that ugly/lucky goal and then soak up the pressure. 
Maybe that comes from being at or near the bottom of the table all of the time. There is no  real midtable in this league, you are either 2 points from the playoff or 2 points from the wooden spoon. Unless you are clear at the top, you are unlikely to be putting much emphasis on pure skill and looking attractive.
Must admit that's part of our game, explosive spurt and then grinding defence.
If you said at the start of the season, we'd be knocking on the door of the final, I wouldn't have believed you.  So in that sense I am happy with the evolution from bottom to 5th.
I know playing as though you don't need defence is really attractive but we saw enough of that at the NZK, with only two decent defenders, and large losses.
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Man, I can't believe how many sensible comments were posted on this thread in just one page!!!



Well done Zinidane, Agent 47, Stop Out, Jag and JD.

I agree with this. These are the type of posts i like to read. Whether you agree or disagree they are well thought out.
I tend to agree.
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
.....I think we'll see less changes next season which should help, we're hopefully only going to be fine tuning our playing squad rather than a complete overhaul....
 
With respect to the defense I agree - Paston, Muscat, Durante, Sigmund, Lochhead, McKain and Brown - very solid defensive unit. Replacements will be required for Moss, Dodd and Johnson. I do think we need a defensive midfielder who can consistently run the show - McKain can on his day but I'd be looking for a Ross Aloisi type player - but overall, defensively, squad is in reasonable shape.
 
With respect to the front 5 / 6 I disagree - Bertos aside major changes / strengthening needed.
 
 
 
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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about 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Xcellent wrote:
FACT: RIKKI HERBERT HAS NEVER COACHED IN ANY CAPACITY AT A PRO OR SEMI-PRO CLUB
FACT: EVERY OTHER COACH IN THE A-LEAGUE HAS.

HE IS KILLING AS TACTICALLY.

THE TEAM DOES NOT LOOK WELL DRILLED

THE TEAM DOESN'T LOOK MOTIVATED

WE ARE NOT GOING TO RECOVER IF THINGS DON'T CHANGE IN A HUGE WAY

THE FACT IS RIKKI HAS TO GO.
[/QUOTE]

And we are still in the hunt for the playoffs...

[QUOTE=wellyphoenixfan]How often do they say it was the coaches fault, even at Spurs they didn't blame it on the coach and just said something needed to change. They changed there coach and looked what happened 3 games later, 2 wins (one against Liverpool) and 1 draw against Arsenal.


And Spurs are still equal bottom...

Just proving that changing the coach doesn't always fix the problems.

Now 'f**kING GET IN THERE YOU PHOENIX!!!'
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