Wellington Phoenix Men

Coaching Angst - ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

2374 replies · 72,193 views Locked
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Feverish wrote:
Steve-O wrote:
Feverish wrote:
have you considered being a professional football coach?
 
Is this the old 'fans cant comment if theyve never played/coached' stuff is it?
 
I pay my money, I'm entitled to my opinion. If you don't like it, I don't care.
 
no - I was just seeing if I would get the predictable response.
 
'Could you do any better?' is the predictable response from people defending failing managers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Steve-O wrote:
Smithy wrote:
I think that the two of you (or is it one of you with two logins, I suspect it may be) who are all anti-Ricki and angsty are f*cking hilarious.
 
 
What is hilarious is the fact that people who are not in the 'Ricki can do no wrong' camp are now being accused of logging in under multiple usernames. Can't you accept people might have a different opinion without accusing people of nonsense like that? I suspect that if you are an administrator on this board you would know fine well if the same person was using different logons.
Yep. Well said.
Its funny how people who are frustrated by Ricki's lameness are almost labeled trators.
I would think most of those labelers are in the same crowd who thought last years finish was a good result! Where as I found it lame and this years not looking any different.
I think Ricki lacks the mental attitude to pass on the "hard ass' fight thats needed from a good 'head' coach. Aussie teams will have lameness for breakfast, and do.
Very disappointed that playing at home we looked to hold on to a 1-0 lead. Almost an insult to the fans that turned up.
Unfortunatly on my last trip back home to NZ a found a pervasive attitude of close enough is good enough (with a few exceptions). Well were only a small country type stuff, Pft. Well it ain't good enough. I and few others expect more.
Yes the players have to take some responsibilty, but it is the 'head' coach who has the job of instilling self belief in the players on a day to day basis. Holding on to 1-0 at home as no basis in self belief.
That said, this has to be the most open minded forum in the A league and to be able to disscuss this without in the most part, the  potty mouthed brigade ambush it, is a credit to everyone.
P.S. Its not just a few. A resent poll had approx 30% agreeing that is has been a very lame start to the season. Again.
The other 70 %, go on, expect more from your team!
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Oh please if you have a different opinion, especially about Ricki, you must be angsty.
Labelling a different opinion angsty is an effort at trying to be superior without actually doing anything.
Simular to knobs who use acronyms for everything to act 'knowledgeable' and deride people who don't understand what they are on about.
Sad little hacks.
 
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I don't even get the use of the word 'angst' getting constantly used?
 
Angst - a feeling of anxiety, apprehension, or insecurity.
 
Doesn't really apply does it? Seems to apply more to how I was feeling with 5 minutes to go on Sunday rather than it does to my opinion of Ricki Herbert.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
but surely there is a middle ground that doesn't get everyone all antsy.  I am a firm believer that mid table is a successful season for us.  We do not have the money the other clubs do, it is harder for us to attract the players that other clubs can, and therefore I do not think that our squad is as good as the other teams in the league.  Due to the salary cap, there is not much of a difference, but I do not think that Lia would be starting in centre midfield for pretty much any of the other teams that we have to play.  That is not a criticism of Vinnie, who I think is a good player, but just a belief that I have.
 
I would love us to win the league, but being pragmatic I think we have been successful this season if we finish between 6th and 8th.  With the history NZ football has had in Aussie competitions, slow and steady progression and improvement is so much better for us than aiming for the stars and f**king it up.  All of this "if you are happy with mediocrity, you have a small-time attitude" is wrong.  I want the club to grow, develop and progress to the point where it has a strong base before it starts really trying to push on.
 
As for this whole "I pay my money, I am entitled to say what I want" attitude, it is one that I cannot really get my head around.  Steve-o - you come from Scotland and are obviously a Hibs fan, who will always be the team that you really care about (your first love so to speak).  Since you have moved to NZ, you now have access to games at a decent level, so you think that this would make you a little bit happy, but it doesn't.  You complain with such passion that I think what goes on really upsets you - I can picture you absoluting steaming mad at some games, so why do you continue to go?  To support the Phoenix?  I am not sure you really do "support" them - you pay your money and you probably cheer the players on the pitch, but this constant negetivity you have rubs off on others, who then start to rub off on others, etc.  Pretty soon you have a part time fan talking to a season ticket holder who is going on about how sh*t Herbert and the players are, and they think "I'm not going to bother going to that".  This drop in crowds is justified by these whingers with a "told you the team was sh*t - people don't even come to watch anymore".
 
Anyway, my advice is carry on coming to the stadium (you want your live football, and we need the money) but supprt the opposition every week.  Sit in the away end and complain about Herbert's tactics all you want, call Ferrante a c**t at the top of your voice, and even give it the big "WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH" to the fever zone everytime the opposition score.  You will still have Hibs, so it is not like you will not have any team to really support so there will still be some message boards to go on to speak about how your club is being ruined by sub-standard corner routines, or whatever has your back up that day.
 
That all ended up a bit longer than I expected it to be

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I will continue to call Ferrante a c**t wherever we are on the table so that point is invalid.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
auskiwi wrote:
Steve-O wrote:
Smithy wrote:
I think that the two of you (or is it one of you with two logins, I suspect it may be) who are all anti-Ricki and angsty are f*cking hilarious.
 
 
What is hilarious is the fact that people who are not in the 'Ricki can do no wrong' camp are now being accused of logging in under multiple usernames. Can't you accept people might have a different opinion without accusing people of nonsense like that? I suspect that if you are an administrator on this board you would know fine well if the same person was using different logons.
Yep. Well said.
Its funny how people who are frustrated by Ricki's lameness are almost labeled trators.
I would think most of those labelers are in the same crowd who thought last years finish was a good result! Where as I found it lame and this years not looking any different.
I think Ricki lacks the mental attitude to pass on the "hard ass' fight thats needed from a good 'head' coach. Aussie teams will have lameness for breakfast, and do.
Very disappointed that playing at home we looked to hold on to a 1-0 lead. Almost an insult to the fans that turned up.
Unfortunatly on my last trip back home to NZ a found a pervasive attitude of close enough is good enough (with a few exceptions). Well were only a small country type stuff, Pft. Well it ain't good enough. I and few others expect more.
Yes the players have to take some responsibilty, but it is the 'head' coach who has the job of instilling self belief in the players on a day to day basis. Holding on to 1-0 at home as no basis in self belief.
That said, this has to be the most open minded forum in the A league and to be able to disscuss this without in the most part, the  potty mouthed brigade ambush it, is a credit to everyone.
P.S. Its not just a few. A resent poll had approx 30% agreeing that is has been a very lame start to the season. Again.
The other 70 %, go on, expect more from your team!
 
I think we are looking a lot better than last season. I've always been pretty meh towards Ricki, not a lover or a hater, but I'm liking him more now Phoenix are playing better. I thought they were pretty poor at the start of last season in particular last year. In regards to the fight factor you mention, I think he must have instilled some of that this season because the players do seem to be winning a lot of '50/50' balls, that's half the reason we've been getting good amounts of possession. I don't really buy the whole Aussie vs NZ - us being a small nation of losers and Aussie mentality as being anything to do with the Phoenix. I just don't think our 'pervasive attitude' as you put it comes into play at all.
 
I too though was really annoyed the way we approached the second half. Started hiffing down more long balls, and looked a lot more tentative. It was as if we just weren't used to being in that position of holding onto a lead for most of the match. Well, we haven't had to do that in a long time so it's probably understandable. I don't think we will keep playing like that (I sincerely hope).
 
I expect more from my team. I started to swtich off them at times last season and am pleased with the progress I think we have made as a team. The results haven't quite swing our way when they easily could have. Football gods haven't quite been there for us yet. I can see why people get annoyed from the results not going that well - but the last thing I want to see is us making sweeping changes to management just when we are starting to play really well. I do expect more results from our team, and I think I'll get that if they keep going in the direction they are. They are up there with the top teams in the league with our standard of Football at the moment I reckon (next couple of games may disprove that though!).
 
PS: Funny that you called it a 'resent' poll.
 
Frankie: I don't actually think 7th or 8th can be called a success for us. Sixth at least I think is a success - but aiming for 4th. Actually, I support Dundee (who will beat Aberdeen in the morning!), and they get a fair few fans going to games and booing the players / coach / everyone involved a lot. Dunno how common it is at other clubs... wouldn't like us to get too far down that track - though I have shouted the odd thing when one of our players has stuffed up, just in frustration.
Colvinator2009-09-22 22:54:59
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
For what it's worth, last week was the first time we've ever surrendered a lead at home in the final 10 minutes of a match.... hence, the "do we put our shirts back on now?" confusion after the equaliser!
 
Edit: thought I'd originally said at home, but StopOut below picked me up on the omission.
SiNZ2009-09-22 23:00:39
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SiNZ wrote:
For what it's worth, last week was the first time we've ever surrendered a lead in the final 10 minutes of a match.... hence, the "do we put our shirts back on now?" confusion after the equaliser!
 
You mean this season? Because we've definitely surrendered leads in the last minutes before, although I think mostly in our first season.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SiNZ wrote:
For what it's worth, last week was the first time we've ever surrendered a lead in the final 10 minutes of a match.... hence, the "do we put our shirts back on now?" confusion after the equaliser!
 
I am pretty sure that the official law states that shirts remain off if we conceed an equaliser, and then shoes come off if we go back in front again.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
StopOut wrote:
SiNZ wrote:
For what it's worth, last week was the first time we've ever surrendered a lead in the final 10 minutes of a match.... hence, the "do we put our shirts back on now?" confusion after the equaliser!
 
You mean this season? Because we've definitely surrendered leads in the last minutes before, although I think mostly in our first season.
Sorry, I meant at home. Fixed now.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
but surely there is a middle ground that doesn't get everyone all antsy.  I am a firm believer that mid table is a successful season for us.  We do not have the money the other clubs do, it is harder for us to attract the players that other clubs can, and therefore I do not think that our squad is as good as the other teams in the league.  Due to the salary cap, there is not much of a difference, but I do not think that Lia would be starting in centre midfield for pretty much any of the other teams that we have to play.  That is not a criticism of Vinnie, who I think is a good player, but just a belief that I have.
 
I would love us to win the league, but being pragmatic I think we have been successful this season if we finish between 6th and 8th.  With the history NZ football has had in Aussie competitions, slow and steady progression and improvement is so much better for us than aiming for the stars and f**king it up.  All of this "if you are happy with mediocrity, you have a small-time attitude" is wrong.  I want the club to grow, develop and progress to the point where it has a strong base before it starts really trying to push on.
 
As for this whole "I pay my money, I am entitled to say what I want" attitude, it is one that I cannot really get my head around.  Steve-o - you come from Scotland and are obviously a Hibs fan, who will always be the team that you really care about (your first love so to speak).  Since you have moved to NZ, you now have access to games at a decent level, so you think that this would make you a little bit happy, but it doesn't.  You complain with such passion that I think what goes on really upsets you - I can picture you absoluting steaming mad at some games, so why do you continue to go?  To support the Phoenix?  I am not sure you really do "support" them - you pay your money and you probably cheer the players on the pitch, but this constant negetivity you have rubs off on others, who then start to rub off on others, etc.  Pretty soon you have a part time fan talking to a season ticket holder who is going on about how sh*t Herbert and the players are, and they think "I'm not going to bother going to that".  This drop in crowds is justified by these whingers with a "told you the team was sh*t - people don't even come to watch anymore".
 
Anyway, my advice is carry on coming to the stadium (you want your live football, and we need the money) but supprt the opposition every week.  Sit in the away end and complain about Herbert's tactics all you want, call Ferrante a c**t at the top of your voice, and even give it the big "WAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH" to the fever zone everytime the opposition score.  You will still have Hibs, so it is not like you will not have any team to really support so there will still be some message boards to go on to speak about how your club is being ruined by sub-standard corner routines, or whatever has your back up that day.
 
That all ended up a bit longer than I expected it to be
 
I completely agree with this. I think under the circumstances everyone associated with putting together and running this club has done a brilliant job to ensure that stability is the most important factor, and if this entails making 'safe' decisions on players, coaches, etc, and having apparently modest targets  then so be it - to me it's a necessary compromise.
 
The disadvantages of having an A League team based in NZ may be fairly slight but they are still disadvantages: we simply cannot offer the kinds of incentives that Australian clubs can to the best players, added to which our future league status remains up in the air. And somehow I very much doubt that if the Nix went down in a heap financially a la Adelaide the FFA would be riding in to save the day for a NZ club, especially after NZ's ignoble history of failures in Australian competitions.
 
However, it is a tricky business for a new(ish) club to balance stability with ambition, and I sort of understand why many fans are so vocal in demanding the latter, and are so impatient for success. From what I've seen this season, though, I am convinced that from Ricki and all of the players there is passion, determination and ambition aplenty and that's good enough for me.
 
edit: sorry, bolded that by mistake, came out very shouty and self-importent!
 
 
StopOut2009-09-22 23:46:02
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SiNZ wrote:
Sorry, I meant at home. Fixed now.


Even then... Sydney. 1st season. Plodder gave away a penalty 3 minutes in to injury time.

No, hang on, that was Stephen Old, Plodder did it to give up a point against the Mariners a few weeks earlier... the game where the Mariners came of celebrating and deliberately baiting the zone.  Bottlegate 1
Hard News2009-09-22 23:56:06

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Vince Lia cost us that Sydney goal - coughed up possession under little pressure and from there the ball went straight into the penalty area. Took me a long time to forgive him for that.
 
I didn't blame Old (although he was awful other times).
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
For us to ever win the league we're going to have to have a group of fantastic New Zealand players.
 
We're always going to struggle to attract the best australians in the game so our advantage should be in attracting kiwis (and also some foreigners, but they're not going to be the entire team).  Ultimately at the moment most of the better players in the league are Australian.
 
I think as a 5 year plan we need to be looking really at developing our own players - so important.  But also very difficult.
 
Similar to the warriors really, the core of the best warriors side in 2002 were New Zealanders.  Think about how long it took for the warriors to attract a representative footballer to New Zealand, same with the breakers.  It takes time to prove that you're a real force and a real club.  That's why solidity is important, respect is important, credibility is important and why some people do accept that perhaps things take time
 
Auskiwi and Steve-O - I guess I do understand some of your frustrations.  At the same time I've seen some really bad NZ teams in the past and I guess I'm happy just to see us competitive and earning respect.  At some stage this won't be enough for me, but I'm probably going to be in the UK for 2 more years and my main hope is still that there is still a club in Wellington when I come back! 
james dean2009-09-23 01:39:15

Normo's coming home

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
james dean wrote:
 
Auskiwi and Steve-O - I guess I do understand some of your frustrations.  At the same time I've seen some really bad NZ teams in the past and I guess I'm happy just to see us competitive and earning respect.  At some stage this won't be enough for me, but I'm probably going to be in the UK for 2 more years and my main hope is still that there is still a club in Wellington when I come back! 
 
Hey I am hoping the same because I will be here a while longer, and would likely come back again even when I do eventually leave, however the way we are going, I am getting worried. You say we are earning respect, but the Aussies don't even bother having a pre show or anything for our games, and we are still 2nd bottom, only 1 point above a brand new team. I would be very surprised if the Aussies respect Phoenix anymore this season than in the past because they will be looking mainly at results, not performances (or 1st half performances as it's been lately).
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

It might be an indication of the level of passion of some but I reckon a lot of you need to lighten up and just try and enjoy the game.  As I said in a previous post, this was my 1st live game this year and I struggle to understand what all of the past angst was all about and now (after a few days) some of the more recent stuff too.

 

I thought the game was a good footballing product and the best available to us. At times I was frustrated other times ecstatic, mostly I was impressed by what I was seeing. I watch kids play, local senior mens� and womens� football and I feel those same range of emotions too. I don�t start howling about how they should do this or that better or that the coach should be sacked. I recognise the game and level of play for what it is and enjoy it on that basis. The A League is not the EPL and the Nix are not Chelsea or Man U, recognise that and enjoy the game for what it is � you�ll give yourselves an ulcer�..

Napier Phoenix2009-09-23 08:29:56
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Frankie Mac wrote:
 
I would love us to win the league, but being pragmatic I think we have been successful this season if we finish between 6th and 8th.  With the history NZ football has had in Aussie competitions, slow and steady progression and improvement is so much better for us than aiming for the stars and f**king it up.  All of this "if you are happy with mediocrity, you have a small-time attitude" is wrong.  I want the club to grow, develop and progress to the point where it has a strong base before it starts really trying to push on.
 
As for this whole "I pay my money, I am entitled to say what I want" attitude, it is one that I cannot really get my head around.  Steve-o - you come from Scotland and are obviously a Hibs fan, who will always be the team that you really care about (your first love so to speak).  Since you have moved to NZ, you now have access to games at a decent level, so you think that this would make you a little bit happy, but it doesn't.  You complain with such passion that I think what goes on really upsets you - I can picture you absoluting steaming mad at some games, so why do you continue to go?  To support the Phoenix?  I am not sure you really do "support" them - you pay your money and you probably cheer the players on the pitch, but this constant negetivity you have rubs off on others, who then start to rub off on others, etc.  Pretty soon you have a part time fan talking to a season ticket holder who is going on about how sh*t Herbert and the players are, and they think "I'm not going to bother going to that".  This drop in crowds is justified by these whingers with a "told you the team was sh*t - people don't even come to watch anymore".
 
 
frankie, sadly I'm don't think I'm that influential so I don't think you need to worry about that! People are entitled to make up their own mind about Ricki, I'm simply offering an opinion that seems to be contrary to most.
 
If some part timer persuades a season ticket holder not to bother, I'd be very surprised!
 
I am mad during and after a lot of these games! I have been attending football matches since I was 2 years old, and supporting Hibs is enough to send anyone off their nut - if we get a bad result, and whether that was at home watching Hibs, or watching Phoenix here, it has an effect on my mood for the rest of the weekend! Sorry if I am just too passionate about it, but that's the way it is.
 
And no, I won't be sitting in the 'away' end. Why would I cheer the opposition scoring when that's the very thing I am complaining about, along with Phoenix not scoring enough (which is my main complaint)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SiNZ wrote:
For what it's worth, last week was the first time we've ever surrendered a lead at home in the final 10 minutes of a match.... hence, the "do we put our shirts back on now?" confusion after the equaliser!
�




Edit: thought I'd originally said at home, but StopOut below picked me up on the omission.


Sydney season 1 off the top of my head. Also at home.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I don't know if anyone has seen this article from the Dom Post today, but it basically sums up exactly what I have been saying...

 
"The reason the Wellington Phoenix are struggling this year is simple. Coach Ricki Herbert is so frightened of losing that he is strangling the life from his talented team.

Herbert is to football what Don Brash was to politics: an arch-conservative."

Suffice to say, I agree with the article 100%, maybe some more people might see my point since it's not just "angsty" Steve-O going on about it now? Or maybe not...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think this opinion piece expresses very well the opinions held by a number of supporters - albeit a little more calmly . My own frustration stems from the view that we are not delivering to our potential and a number of the factors that are contributing to our under performance are fixable.
 
 
P.S. Re thread title; "Angst" is getting overused and is becoming a term used to describe views different to the "prevailing" view.
 
P.P.S. I think our unbeaten run at home is great but I also think making a big deal of it is contributing to the "a draw is OK mentality". For me a draw at home, with few exceptions e.g. top couple of teams, is nothing  to be celebrated - accepted maybe but not celebrated.
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Read the Article, Did not agree with it, but hey that is just me.

Having a couple of days catch up of this Thread, (after i gave up reading it, because it got me to fired up) I still think it is good for the club to have so many people so passionate about the team (and coach i guess) even if people are anti this or that, it is only because they support the club so much.

I'm going to hold of judgment, on Ricki, till the end of the season, or at least more than 7 games into it.

All Aboard the Phoenix/ All Whites Bandwagon!!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Steve-O wrote:
Smithy wrote:
I think that the two of you (or is it one of you with two logins, I suspect it may be) who are all anti-Ricki and angsty are f*cking hilarious.
 
 
What is hilarious is the fact that people who are not in the 'Ricki can do no wrong' camp are now being accused of logging in under multiple usernames. Can't you accept people might have a different opinion without accusing people of nonsense like that? I suspect that if you are an administrator on this board you would know fine well if the same person was using different logons.
 
Two things.  One, maybe it wasn't an accusation, it was a veiled warning.
 
Second, I don't think you can accuse us (me) of stifling discussion just because we (I) post forcefully in disagreement with you.
 
On the contrary, while I personally find your posts tiresome and at times naieve and ignorant I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support your right to hold those views and expound them to your heart's content.
 
This is a discussion forum.  It would be pretty frigging boring if everyone agreed.  Part of the fun is having these little tussles and if someone like you didn't pop up and post something complete wrong every now and again it would be a shame.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This is nearly as bad as the Arsenal fans fracturing into the AKB's  (Arsene knows best) versus the 'Wenger out, get someone who spends money" arguments that crop up every season.
Why do people assume Ricki isnt trying his best to make this club successful?
UberGunner2009-09-23 09:19:10
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
SiNZ wrote:
Sorry, I meant at home. Fixed now.


Even then... Sydney. 1st season. Plodder gave away a penalty 3 minutes in to injury time.

No, hang on, that was Stephen Old, Plodder did it to give up a point against the Mariners a few weeks earlier... the game where the Mariners came of celebrating and deliberately baiting the zone.  Bottlegate 1
 
I must admit, I was thinking in terms of shirts off.... I knew I should have gone back and checked whether there was a match that pre-dated the introduction of shirts-off at 80 .
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The game was after the shirts off tradition started...
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Steve-O wrote:

I don't know if anyone has seen this article from the Dom Post today, but it basically sums up exactly what I have been saying...

 
"The reason the Wellington Phoenix are struggling this year is simple. Coach Ricki Herbert is so frightened of losing that he is strangling the life from his talented team.

Herbert is to football what Don Brash was to politics: an arch-conservative."

Suffice to say, I agree with the article 100%, maybe some more people might see my point since it's not just "angsty" Steve-O going on about it now? Or maybe not...

I don't agree with it at all, but it's a good article, and full credit to the DomPost for getting someone who actually knows a little bit about football to write about football rather than Millmow. 

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Thing about that article is if Herbert had us playing very attacking football and winning/losing every other game 4-3 or 3-2 people would then say he is too cavallier in his approach and by ignoring the defensive aspects of the game is also holding the team back from truly flourishing.
 
Can't have it both ways.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
Steve-O wrote:

I don't know if anyone has seen this article from the Dom Post today, but it basically sums up exactly what I have been saying...

 
"The reason the Wellington Phoenix are struggling this year is simple. Coach Ricki Herbert is so frightened of losing that he is strangling the life from his talented team.

Herbert is to football what Don Brash was to politics: an arch-conservative."

Suffice to say, I agree with the article 100%, maybe some more people might see my point since it's not just "angsty" Steve-O going on about it now? Or maybe not...

I don't agree with it at all, but it's a good article, and full credit to the DomPost for getting someone who actually knows a little bit about football to write about football rather than Millmow. 

 
Anything in particular you don't agree with Smithy? 
 
It's maybe a bit heavy at times (a bit scathing about Greenacre) but the sentiment is right, sounds like someone a bit frustrated who believes we should be doing better with the players we have, especially at home, and it is surely about time we got back to winning ways at the Westpac?
 
There is no relagation from this league so no real reason why we shouldn't have a more attacking edge to our team, at least in our home matches.  At least let us be entertained when at home, if it is exciting attacking football the fans will come to watch
irnbru142009-09-23 09:33:10
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Paul Thompson (Dom Post) has hit the nail on the head. One of the most well founded, well written pieces on The 'Nix since their inception.
The point is that Ricki's tactics will probably serve the AWs well in the upcoming Bahrain games, but over a league season the same tactics aint gonna cut it.
Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
Thing about that article is if Herbert had us playing very attacking football and winning/losing every other game 4-3 or 3-2 people would then say he is too cavallier in his approach and by ignoring the defensive aspects of the game is also holding the team back from truly flourishing.
 
Can't have it both ways.
 
Why take it to the other extreme, there is a balance between attack and defence, and sometime Ricki is more inclined to the defensive than the offensive.  At home I would like to see us achieve that bit more, it isn't a huge stepchange in mindset, it's just a small nudge to readress the balance of the way the team is set up and plays.
 
I don't want my nerves to have to deal with the Kevin Keegan score more than you school of football!!!
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
The game was after the shirts off tradition started...
 
Huh? Just checked and you are right. I could have sworn it was the other way round, but I'm wrong by almost two months.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
irnbru14 wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Thing about that article is if Herbert had us playing very attacking football and winning/losing every other game 4-3 or 3-2 people would then say he is too cavallier in his approach and by ignoring the defensive aspects of the game is also holding the team back from truly flourishing.
 
Can't have it both ways.
 
Why take it to the other extreme, there is a balance between attack and defence, and sometime Ricki is more inclined to the defensive than the offensive.  At home I would like to see us achieve that bit more, it isn't a huge stepchange in mindset, it's just a small nudge to readress the balance of the way the team is set up and plays.
 
I don't want my nerves to have to deal with the Kevin Keegan score more than you school of football!!!
 
Fair point, but the article already takes it close to one extreme, almost suggesting as if we don't know the meaning of the word attacking football.
 
I'm not suggesting we play that Keegan way either, but merely pointing out that if that was the case the tone of the article would be similar, which to me indicates frustration at results as opposed strickly to the style of football played.

Three for me, and two for them.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
 
Two things.  One, maybe it wasn't an accusation, it was a veiled warning.
 
Second, I don't think you can accuse us (me) of stifling discussion just because we (I) post forcefully in disagreement with you.
 
On the contrary, while I personally find your posts tiresome and at times naieve and ignorant I wholeheartedly and enthusiastically support your right to hold those views and expound them to your heart's content.
 
This is a discussion forum.  It would be pretty frigging boring if everyone agreed.  Part of the fun is having these little tussles and if someone like you didn't pop up and post something complete wrong every now and again it would be a shame.
 
Why would you be warning me about something I have no intention nor requirement to do?
 
I never accused anyone of stifiling discussion.
 
I cannot see why my posts would be 'niaive' or 'ignorant' - ignorant of what exactly?
 
What I maybe find a bit strange is the fact that my having a differing opinion from the majority has seemingly left me open to personal attacks rather than discussing the actual subject matter...i.e. being told to "f**k off", commit suicide, not to mention the 'hilarious' practice of putting 'Sack Ricki' at the bottom of posts?
 
I don't care about people disagreeing and stating their reasons why, but some of the responses have smacked of "well I disagree just because...so I'll just abuse the guy instead"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
UberGunner wrote:
This is nearly as bad as the Arsenal fans fracturing into the AKB's  (Arsene knows best) versus the 'Wenger out, get someone who spends money" arguments that crop up every season.
Why do people assume Ricki isnt trying his best to make this club successful?
 
Who is assuming that?
 
Strange as it may be, sometimes someones 'best' just isn't good enough - we see it in football all the time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Steve-O wrote:
UberGunner wrote:
This is nearly as bad as the Arsenal fans fracturing into the AKB's  (Arsene knows best) versus the 'Wenger out, get someone who spends money" arguments that crop up every season.
Why do people assume Ricki isnt trying his best to make this club successful?
 
Who is assuming that?
 
Strange as it may be, sometimes someones 'best' just isn't good enough - we see it in football all the time.
then why do you assume that the players on the picth have no say in how they perform?
It doesnt always have to be the coaches fault. I think we played more defensivley on sunday not as a tactical approach but more in reaction to squandering possesion to the fury to easliy in the last 10 minutes. the players failed to hold on to the ball and gave the fury the chane to eqaulise. Ricki cant make every pass and tackle himself you know.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Ban Angst!
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Buffon II wrote:
 
Fair point, but the article already takes it close to one extreme, almost suggesting as if we don't know the meaning of the word attacking football.
 
I'm not suggesting we play that Keegan way either, but merely pointing out that if that was the case the tone of the article would be similar, which to me indicates frustration at results as opposed strickly to the style of football played.
 
I would say you CAN have it both ways to an extent - away from these tactics are fine, and a point away will usually be an acceptable result (although I still think if we'd pushed it we could've won in Melbourne).
 
At home, I think we do need to be more cavalier, but we seem to play the exact same way home and away.
 
As irnbru says, there is a balance and no need to be TOO cavalier and end up losing 4-3 - I wouldn't mind winning a couple of games 4-3 though!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
UberGunner wrote:
Steve-O wrote:
UberGunner wrote:
This is nearly as bad as the Arsenal fans fracturing into the AKB's  (Arsene knows best) versus the 'Wenger out, get someone who spends money" arguments that crop up every season.
Why do people assume Ricki isnt trying his best to make this club successful?
 
Who is assuming that?
 
Strange as it may be, sometimes someones 'best' just isn't good enough - we see it in football all the time.
then why do you assume that the players on the picth have no say in how they perform?
It doesnt always have to be the coaches fault. I think we played more defensivley on sunday not as a tactical approach but more in reaction to squandering possesion to the fury to easliy in the last 10 minutes. the players failed to hold on to the ball and gave the fury the chane to eqaulise. Ricki cant make every pass and tackle himself you know.
 
But he can change the set up during the second half when it was obvious Fury were getting a foothold in the game and we weren't creating much going forward.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
topiary wrote:
Ban Angst!
 
I agree, ban the word 'angst' because as stated by another poster it is being overused to describe any view differing from the overtly positive ones!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe_B5CzbTJo - Caceres winning penalty v Perth - footage from the Fever Zone

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