Smithy's ASB proving ground leads you to ... Clapham ;)
By the way anyone know where he is playing this winter? Not Chch I've heard.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
I heard Timmins may have been offered a contract but isn't really that keen. What does that say?
As for the 'Would Tyler Boyd be signed by any other A-League side?"
If he wasn't an import, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see other sides interested in him. Guys like Petratos, Harold, Kruse, Ramsay, Halloran, Dugandzic etc have all had similar success in their teens and found interest from other A-League sides- I think often based on their speed and potential.
There was a comment on him missing loads of simple chances, which I can't recall any of so would be great to be reminded of them. Also I think looking at his goals to game ratio is a bit harsh seeing as he's been deployed predominantly on the wing in both seasons we have seen him with a fair few from the bench. But if you compare him to other secondary strikers/ wingers then I think he has been alright.
He has averaged a goal every 388mins this season which is quite low but you can compare it to other 'top 4 side players' of similar position:
He definitely needs to increase his goal threat, but he's certainly looked one of our most dangerous players and provided a spark in plenty of games. And when you compare him to 'top 4' players of similar position and style, then he's definitely not dramatically under performing. You also have to take into consideration that these are top 4 sides so you'd expect their attackers to probably pick up more goals than a 9th place side.
PS - apologies to back up my post with actual stats & research ;)
cant believe this 'who would get into another top 4 side' test.
Start of last season, you could say that about 90% of the Wanderers squad.
Covic, Beauchamp, Topor-Stanley, D'Appuzzo, Cole, Bridge, Haliti etc were all 'rejects' from other clubs. Yet they won the league. It's not about the players, its about the system.
Would you take any of those players into the nix? I personally wouldn't - maybe NTS? But the point is that this 'top 4 player' is a pretty rubbish concept.
Normo's coming home
cant believe this 'who would get into another top 4 side' test.
Start of last season, you could say that about 90% of the Wanderers squad.
Covic, Beauchamp, Topor-Stanley, D'Appuzzo, Cole, Bridge, Haliti etc were all 'rejects' from other clubs. Yet they won the league. It's not about the players, its about the system.
Would you take any of those players into the nix? I personally wouldn't - maybe NTS? But the point is that this 'top 4 player' is a pretty rubbish concept.
You do realise we finished last and 9th and conceded 100 goals over 2 years? I think our fan base is quite clearly yet to acknowledge how bad some of our players are. Either that, or our manager did a terrible job and I know which camp I'm in
You do realise we finished last and 9th and conceded 100 goals over 2 years? I think our fan base is quite clearly yet to acknowledge how bad some of our players are. Either that, or our manager did a terrible job and I know which camp I'm in
Actually didn't realise where we finished on the table, thanks for clearing it up for me!
Your post is suggesting that you think Beauchamp or D'Apuzzo would have prevented us from these defensive frailties?
Normo's coming home
It's easy to be doom and gloom after another heavy loss when we're clearly out of the playoff picture, but I just cannot see the logic in re-signing so many of our players for next year and beyond. Yes Vince Lia has been better this season, but is he really worth another two years?
I just can't help but think Vince Lia, Manny Muscat, Stein Huysegems, Roy Krishna, Jason Hicks, Leo Bertos and Reece Caira are easy to replace with better players.
At least some of them will be..
Overall I think there is a massive difference in perception and reality around our squad. We perceive us as having a squad filled with potentially A-League quality players. After the two seasons we've just had, I think we have to admit that a number of those players are not up to it and won't develop into A-League quality players, at least if we ever intend to finish in the top 4.
How about we get rid of the Wanderers and add a Nix team into the league to play a mirror system to the first team but using only youth players. That way TW's can do their thing and the Nix youth team will be be playing competitive matches and learning the system ready to make the step up.
Sure the players won't be able to swap between but at least it gets more youth players involved and actual game time!
FFA would never kick WSW out of the NYL...
/s
Having a Nix academy side in ASB Premiership would be a good step but it doesn't solve the issues with getting our squad players game time. Rufer, Adams etc need a NYL side to play in. We can do without a marquee but we can't do without a NYL side if we want to follow CCM's path. It costs more but it is more valuable for the development of the Phoenix.
Think he means ASBP wanderers
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Having a Nix academy side in ASB Premiership would be a good step but it doesn't solve the issues with getting our squad players game time. Rufer, Adams etc need a NYL side to play in. We can do without a marquee but we can't do without a NYL side if we want to follow CCM's path. It costs more but it is more valuable for the development of the Phoenix.
Why the massive boner for the NYL?
And don't give me "well Mariners have done it" because Mariners are light years ahead of us in all respects. They have feeder teams playing in the local winter competitions, they have a fully fledged Academy (we have a sponsorship arrangement) and the have invested MONEY in finding (most important) and developing (secondary importance) good teenage players to ease into the first team.
A NYL team would be nice, but it's not going to turn Rufer/Ridenton into an A-League player much quicker than giving them a couple of years in the ASB Premiership until they're grown ups, and THEN signing them.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
By the way anyone who says Clapham is a stand out in the ASB Premiership hasn't watched enough ASB Premiership.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
It's easy to be doom and gloom after another heavy loss when we're clearly out of the playoff picture, but I just cannot see the logic in re-signing so many of our players for next year and beyond. Yes Vince Lia has been better this season, but is he really worth another two years?
I just can't help but think Vince Lia, Manny Muscat, Stein Huysegems, Roy Krishna, Jason Hicks, Leo Bertos and Reece Caira are easy to replace with better players.
At least some of them will be..
Agree with that; Ernie inherited the backbone of the squad from Ricki and brought some short term squad fillers but now has the opportunity to rebuild, completely if required. Worth holding onto:
Boxall, Fenton, Boyd, Cunningham, Rufer, Hernandez. The rest can go now or when their contracts expire.
I agree that some of these may be worth holding onto, Boxall if there is a position that he fits into, not sure about hernandez, particularly post world cup, cunningham I can take or leave..he works hard but...... also you didnt mention Reira probably our best player until season ending injury. better things may come from Boyd, fenton and Rufer but you also need experience around these guys.
" If you only have a hammer you tend to see every problem as a nail" - maslow
I heard Timmins may have been offered a contract but isn't really that keen. What does that say?
:)
Fuck this stupid game
Having a Nix academy side in ASB Premiership would be a good step but it doesn't solve the issues with getting our squad players game time. Rufer, Adams etc need a NYL side to play in. We can do without a marquee but we can't do without a NYL side if we want to follow CCM's path. It costs more but it is more valuable for the development of the Phoenix.
Why the massive boner for the NYL?
And don't give me "well Mariners have done it" because Mariners are light years ahead of us in all respects. They have feeder teams playing in the local winter competitions, they have a fully fledged Academy (we have a sponsorship arrangement) and the have invested MONEY in finding (most important) and developing (secondary importance) good teenage players to ease into the first team.
A NYL team would be nice, but it's not going to turn Rufer/Ridenton into an A-League player much quicker than giving them a couple of years in the ASB Premiership until they're grown ups, and THEN signing them.
Normo's coming home
By the way anyone who says Clapham is a stand out in the ASB Premiership hasn't watched enough ASB Premiership.
Kotahitanga. We are one.
By the way anyone who says Clapham is a stand out in the ASB Premiership hasn't watched enough ASB Premiership.
By the way anyone who says Clapham is a stand out in the ASB Premiership hasn't watched enough ASB Premiership.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Having a Nix academy side in ASB Premiership would be a good step but it doesn't solve the issues with getting our squad players game time. Rufer, Adams etc need a NYL side to play in. We can do without a marquee but we can't do without a NYL side if we want to follow CCM's path. It costs more but it is more valuable for the development of the Phoenix.
Why the massive boner for the NYL?
And don't give me "well Mariners have done it" because Mariners are light years ahead of us in all respects. They have feeder teams playing in the local winter competitions, they have a fully fledged Academy (we have a sponsorship arrangement) and the have invested MONEY in finding (most important) and developing (secondary importance) good teenage players to ease into the first team.
A NYL team would be nice, but it's not going to turn Rufer/Ridenton into an A-League player much quicker than giving them a couple of years in the ASB Premiership until they're grown ups, and THEN signing them.
Control?
A NYL team allows players to interchange between the youth and senior teams (up to 4 seniors can play each week too), allows them to be integrated into the team's systems and the Phoenix have them under contract.
Is there a lack of trust in the ASBP being able to develop our best talent into professional footballers? Would Marco, Kosta, Tyler be better off now in their careers if they had spent a couple more seasons each in the ASBP?
Having a Nix academy side in ASB Premiership would be a good step but it doesn't solve the issues with getting our squad players game time. Rufer, Adams etc need a NYL side to play in. We can do without a marquee but we can't do without a NYL side if we want to follow CCM's path. It costs more but it is more valuable for the development of the Phoenix.
Why the massive boner for the NYL?
And don't give me "well Mariners have done it" because Mariners are light years ahead of us in all respects. They have feeder teams playing in the local winter competitions, they have a fully fledged Academy (we have a sponsorship arrangement) and the have invested MONEY in finding (most important) and developing (secondary importance) good teenage players to ease into the first team.
A NYL team would be nice, but it's not going to turn Rufer/Ridenton into an A-League player much quicker than giving them a couple of years in the ASB Premiership until they're grown ups, and THEN signing them.
Control?
A NYL team allows players to interchange between the youth and senior teams (up to 4 seniors can play each week too), allows them to be integrated into the team's systems and the Phoenix have them under contract.
Is there a lack of trust in the ASBP being able to develop our best talent into professional footballers? Would Marco, Kosta, Tyler be better off now in their careers if they had spent a couple more seasons each in the ASBP?
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Not convinced that Marco and Kosta 'carved up the ASBP'
Not convinced that Marco and Kosta 'carved up the ASBP'
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Having a Nix academy side in ASB Premiership would be a good step but it doesn't solve the issues with getting our squad players game time. Rufer, Adams etc need a NYL side to play in. We can do without a marquee but we can't do without a NYL side if we want to follow CCM's path. It costs more but it is more valuable for the development of the Phoenix.
Why the massive boner for the NYL?
And don't give me "well Mariners have done it" because Mariners are light years ahead of us in all respects. They have feeder teams playing in the local winter competitions, they have a fully fledged Academy (we have a sponsorship arrangement) and the have invested MONEY in finding (most important) and developing (secondary importance) good teenage players to ease into the first team.
A NYL team would be nice, but it's not going to turn Rufer/Ridenton into an A-League player much quicker than giving them a couple of years in the ASB Premiership until they're grown ups, and THEN signing them.
Control?
A NYL team allows players to interchange between the youth and senior teams (up to 4 seniors can play each week too), allows them to be integrated into the team's systems and the Phoenix have them under contract.
Is there a lack of trust in the ASBP being able to develop our best talent into professional footballers? Would Marco, Kosta, Tyler be better off now in their careers if they had spent a couple more seasons each in the ASBP?
Marco and Kosta did both spend time in the ASBP. Only Boyd bypassed it.
Marco and Kosta carved up the ASBP. They were dominant. So was Siggy. So too Riera. And look, they all went on and were really good A League players pretty much from day one.
Boyd, Ridenton and Rufer didn't play ASB Premiership at all. Well, Boyd played a little for Declan's Waikato I think, but not much. And they just aren't doing it in the A League.
Not convinced that Marco and Kosta 'carved up the ASBP'
It looks like Boyd actually played one more game than Marco (not sure on minutes), but I wasn't asking if they had played but if they would have been better off developing in the ASBP for a couple more seasons. Particularly in Kosta's case, he hardly played in his first two seasons at the 'Nix, would he have been better off in the ASBP? Did full time coaching and training along side better players develop him better? Luckily at the time for the 'Nix we didn't have the 'injury crisis' we have had this season and so maybe weren't relied upon as heavily.
Decent opposition to help keep their fitness and sharpness levels up.
Not convinced that Marco and Kosta 'carved up the ASBP'
They stood out. Marco was clearly the most talented player, if not the most effective, in that year's NZFC.
Are you just picking holes, or actually disagreeing?
Well I don't think that the ASBP, in it's current structure, is likely to produce the number of players of A-league quality we need. Sure there will be a few but 4 in 7 years isn't exactly a resounding success. Given the recruitment issues we have with attracting good Australians over and the limit on foreigners, we probably need to be bringing in 4 a season. 14 games a season just isn't enough, and instead of being a development league that it should be, most teams are drafting in players from overseas.
But I agree that the NYL isn't the sole answer. It provides some solutions, in terms of giving squads players game time and filtering out the players not up to standard. But it would need to be supported by a better academy, facilities, coaching, etc.
Unfortunately that all costs money.
Not convinced that Marco and Kosta 'carved up the ASBP'
They stood out. Marco was clearly the most talented player, if not the most effective, in that year's NZFC.
Are you just picking holes, or actually disagreeing?
Well I don't think that the ASBP, in it's current structure, is likely to produce the number of players of A-league quality we need. Sure there will be a few but 4 in 7 years isn't exactly a resounding success. Given the recruitment issues we have with attracting good Australians over and the limit on foreigners, we probably need to be bringing in 4 a season. 14 games a season just isn't enough, and instead of being a development league that it should be, most teams are drafting in players from overseas.
But I agree that the NYL isn't the sole answer. It provides some solutions, in terms of giving squads players game time and filtering out the players not up to standard. But it would need to be supported by a better academy, facilities, coaching, etc.
Unfortunately that all costs money.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
I think top notch training facilities and leading development initiatives (money aside) would help conquer the 'get aussies over' thing. Although it should be there to help kiwis, if we can be attracting top aussie talent over early it'll make it easier to keep them here when they get good. Practically speaking an 18 year old aussie is more likely to up and move than a 28 year old aussie with a young family. Make sense?
I think fundamentally everyone keeps identifying is that the ASBP isn't generating talent for the Nix like it should, and like wise to either change this by investing in NYL team, or investing in higher quality players will require funds that Welnix don't seem to be willing to offer.
With this in mind is this just a lack of a strategic business case being put together that outlines solutions to these problems? If you're dealing with business people talk to them in the language they understand.
I agree. And to be clear I'm not saying the ASBP is the answer to the Nix's player development issues.
What I am saying is that instead of tying up roster spots and salary cap money with children who aren't ready yet I'd rather we let them grow playing regularly elsewhere and kept tabs on them and spent that money on players who can do a job when called upon.
As someone has noted, we need to have a certain number of youth players in the roster. But beyond that, the sole criteria should be current effectiveness, not future potential.
Guess there is two questions with that.
1) are there available, and up to standard, players for the nix to purchase now?
2) where do these players go instead?
for 1) I'm not sure there are a massive amount of players for us given.
for 2) I spose at present it would be a ASBP/VPL combination like Musa and other are doing, or heading over to college.
I'm just worried that we aren't looking for any players other than kids...
Also, just to give a bit of context to my stand point on this - I think providing a pathway for NZ talent is a key job of the Phoenix. Hell, I founded the bloody scholarship. So I'm all for youth development. But the squad has to be competitive, it's a poor cop out to say "yeah but these players we signed will be good in three or four years..." Sure, what happens until then?
It's also fair to reiterate what Iffs said on the pod last night, which is that we've had an unprecedented string of injuries this season which has forced us to rely on the kids more than we had planned to.
That would hold a lot of water, but for the fact that when we were backs to the wall we picked up Justin Gulley and Hamish Watson instead of seasoned pros.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
Just going back to Kosta for a moment, wasn't the general consensus when he signed that we got the wrong brother? I could have a dodgy memory though.
I'm just worried that we aren't looking for any players other than kids...
Also, just to give a bit of context to my stand point on this - I think providing a pathway for NZ talent is a key job of the Phoenix. Hell, I founded the bloody scholarship. So I'm all for youth development. But the squad has to be competitive, it's a poor cop out to say "yeah but these players we signed will be good in three or four years..." Sure, what happens until then?
It's also fair to reiterate what Iffs said on the pod last night, which is that we've had an unprecedented string of injuries this season which has forced us to rely on the kids more than we had planned to.
That would hold a lot of water, but for the fact that when we were backs to the wall we picked up Justin Gulley and Hamish Watson instead of seasoned pros.
Could be wrong, but weren't these after most of the transfer windows were closed? Complicates recruitment significantly.
But yes agree. Ernie has clearly been given the instruction to look at Kiwi youth first before looking elsewhere.
I'm just worried that we aren't looking for any players other than kids...
Also, just to give a bit of context to my stand point on this - I think providing a pathway for NZ talent is a key job of the Phoenix. Hell, I founded the bloody scholarship. So I'm all for youth development. But the squad has to be competitive, it's a poor cop out to say "yeah but these players we signed will be good in three or four years..." Sure, what happens until then?
It's also fair to reiterate what Iffs said on the pod last night, which is that we've had an unprecedented string of injuries this season which has forced us to rely on the kids more than we had planned to.
That would hold a lot of water, but for the fact that when we were backs to the wall we picked up Justin Gulley and Hamish Watson instead of seasoned pros.
Could be wrong, but weren't these after most of the transfer windows were closed? Complicates recruitment significantly.
I'm just worried that we aren't looking for any players other than kids...
Also, just to give a bit of context to my stand point on this - I think providing a pathway for NZ talent is a key job of the Phoenix. Hell, I founded the bloody scholarship. So I'm all for youth development. But the squad has to be competitive, it's a poor cop out to say "yeah but these players we signed will be good in three or four years..." Sure, what happens until then?
It's also fair to reiterate what Iffs said on the pod last night, which is that we've had an unprecedented string of injuries this season which has forced us to rely on the kids more than we had planned to.
That would hold a lot of water, but for the fact that when we were backs to the wall we picked up Justin Gulley and Hamish Watson instead of seasoned pros.
Could be wrong, but weren't these after most of the transfer windows were closed? Complicates recruitment significantly.
Also, I think that the FFA closed the loophole and injury replacement players cannot be paid more than the player they are replacing.
Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.
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