Wellington Phoenix Men

Just START Rojas (now with added Kosta)

280 replies · 3,370 views
about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
paulm wrote:
el grapadura = whooooooo's dad


whoooooooooooooooooo will no doubt be happy to finally find out who that is.

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Arsenal wrote:
Hold on a minute - which one was Kwasnik?
 
Kwasnik has no more than roadie status in this analogy at best. He was a sh*t roadie for us and now he's gone on and become a bit of a better roadie for someone else. Who cares? He's still just a roadie.
 
I guess the point of the story is that sometimes the stars are aligned and sometimes they aren't.
 
 
terminator_x2010-12-24 09:21:07

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
el grapadura wrote:
Tegal wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
Erm, it's English - if you can't understand it, not my fault. What I'm basing this on is the fact that Kosta has always been a good player - here or at Brisbane. The difference? He has more appearances for Brisbane in one season that he's had in 3 years with the Phoenix. How many goals did he have in his first 10 games for the Roar? He was given continuity, and the club showed faith in him and allowed him to build confidence. Obviously Ange's style of play helps him, but do people really believe Kosta couldn't have done this for the Phoenix? Do people honestly believe that Kosta went from a guy who shouldn't start for the Phoenix to one of the key players and goalscorers for Brisbane in just a short few months, just because of Ange? You really believe this?


I do
 

The Phoenix game has been by and large been built on the cross in from the flanks to a striker to score. We rarely come down through pinball alley and strike direct on. Why Kosta never worked or would never have worked is because he was played centrally and was also 5 nothing up against 6 ft guys. Is he having to win aerial balls for the Roar? Nope. However thats how he was and I suspect would have been used here had he stayed.

 

So no, he was not going to succeed in our game style and the best thing he ever did was move to a team that played him in the right place and the right style for him. You can say what you like about it but its all there on the replay.
So then you basically agree that his time here was mishandled?


So what you're saying ir Ricki shouldve restructured the entire teams system to fit an (at the time) unproven young kids style of play?


No. What I'm saying is that a lot of players worse than Kosta have played in the system which apparently doesn't 'suit' him (which at its heart is a bollocks argument, since good players will remain good players regardless of the system they play in, and it's up to the manager/coach to get the best out of them). And they've had a lot more chances to 'fit in' into this 'system' than Kosta had.

The point remains - the club mishandled this situation. Either they didn't recognise the talent, or they failed to get the best out of it. Whichever way you look at it, it's a big fail on the part of the club. And please note that I never said anything about Kwasnik. But of course bringing that randomly in is indicative of the level of debate on this forum these days, which had in fact led me to leave the forum for a few weeks. I thought I'd give it another chance, but since I see the amount of stoopid on here and its frightening growth rate, clearly there's no point in bothering.

So with this post I'm officially retiring from here. Hope you all have a wonderful time patting yourselves on the back, I've got better things to do.
Well stoopid would be a forum mod throwing their toys and 'resigning' because they can't win an argument. Don't accuse others of it when you are equally as guilty and considering you are a forum mod, you should be above it since you wear the title.
 
To the point of the post. NO Good players will not remain good players regardless of the system. There are plenty of examples of players that move clubs and kick on or on the opposite ledger, fall away. Simon Elliott - Stand out at the WC, played EPL. Good footballer right? So why is he not a standout in our system? Is that the clubs fault for mishandling him???? How the Phoenix play is different to how the All Whites play.
 
If I stick Paul Ifill in at centreback, he should still be a star right? Good player, can play in any system.... Somehow I doubt he would standout or be as effective as where he plays now primarily because a central defender has a different skill set. Much like when we put Kosta upfront and knocked in balls from out wide, being 5 foot nothing, didn't suit his skill set. His skill set is designed for a system where he has room to run because he is light, quick of feet and has good touch control. And just for good measure - Stan Collymore. Played well at Liverpool, shyte everywhere else.
 
So you toss your toys and think this and think that but you are rationalising an argument that is plainly based on stoopid.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Jeff Vader you have missed EG's entire point, which has nothing to do with systems of play.
 
It's hard to have an argument with someone who can't grasp what is written in front of them.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
paulm wrote:
el grapadura wrote:
So with this post I'm officially retiring from here. Hope you all have a wonderful time patting yourselves on the back, I've got better things to do.


�

el grapadura = whooooooo's dad


No. El grap knows stuff, whooooo not so much.   El Grap just become an off-topic forumer!
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

I lost track of what EGs 'argument' was several pages ago when it became emotive rather than factual.

And whether he missed EG's point or not, Vader still made several good points of his own there, the best one being;
 
"Well stoopid would be a forum mod throwing their toys and 'resigning' because they can't win an argument."
 
But perhaps replace 'because they cant win an argument' with 'because they cant make everyone agree with them by talking down to them and generally carrying a holier than thou attitude'
 
Although EG often enlightened me with insightful comment, and most of the time talked a lot of sense, i for one wont miss his condescending attitude. Somewhat symbolic of him that his parting shot was to inform the majority of us that we are 'stoopid'.
 
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Ive yet to see a topic on this forum that everyone is in agreement with, whether or not its factual, a personal point of view or just a plain humouros comment...I do feel however that life is too short to argue about it and tomorrow is always another day. I for one dont mind any of the above personally and if I'm in the mood to dispute a post I will (mainly not) but will not take it to personally if Im disagreed with....so on that note
Have a happy Christmas all
paullt2010-12-24 11:41:55

" If you only have a hammer you tend to see every problem as a nail" - maslow

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
Jeff Vader you have missed EG's entire point, which has nothing to do with systems of play.
 
It's hard to have an argument with someone who can't grasp what is written in front of them.
For arguments sake, lets say I have. Can you tell me what it is?
 
I've argued his last point that the club mishandled him. I'm saying thats not the case and the reason why Kosta didn't succeed here was not cause of being mishandled by the club but because the style of football we play does not suit Kosta's style of play and thus, he may possibly not succeeded here.
 
He says good players will be good players regardless of system? I've said bollocks and given examples.
 
Please tell me where I've gone wrong here sir.
Jeff Vader2010-12-24 11:46:34

Grumpy old bastard alert

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
well said paullt
 
and a happy christmas to you too!
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
A lot of what has been said is OPINION. I think that there were good points made. I'm just glad that everyone does not agree with me, cause life would be so boring.
The trouble is that there are some that are obnoxious,think they know it all and have this hate everyone that does not agree with them.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Come On Phoenix

                                                                        COYN    

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Come on Metallica

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I know this isn't a thread about Kosta, but there are very important lessons from the way we handled him to the way we are/need to handle Marco.  I'll repeat what I said in another thread.
 

"...remember, in 3 years Ricki barely picked Kosta for the Phoenix and he's never picked him for the national team. Now he's one of the best players in the league. Clearly Herbert couldn't get the best out of one of the most skilful youngsters we've produced which is very worrying, and clearly Ricki doesn't trust him.

Hiding behind a contract offer is rubbish, he never played him so ultimately the offer of a contract is meaningless.

Kosta should be an absolute star at his hometown club where he was signed when he was 17, personally I think it's a tragedy that he's playing his best football under a different coach at a different club, purely because he was managed so poorly here. I just can't see a lot the Herbert got right on this one. Kosta would have been a great player to have at the world cup in this form and I still think that Brockie was very lucky to get the nod ahead of him.

The future for the AWs is Smeltz, Wood, Rojas and Kosta. The sooner we get rid of the cloggers and start integrating these young guys the better"

"

"

I think there is 2 points to rebut:

 

1. the lack of a reserve team is a cop out because that implies that he wouldn't be playing for the first team, which he has now proven he is good enough to do.

               

2. I don't think the key thing for him at QLD has been the opportunities because of injuries, over a 30 game season you will always get an opportunity.   It's been that even when he hasn't performed, or has shown inconsistency, he has continued to get serious game time in the first team.  Personel, playing style etc are all a factor but the key thing is he just didn't get the games with us. That's something that never looked like happening at the Phoenix and you'd have to say that Herbert has shown almost no faith in him.

 

Herbert either didn't see the talent that he has, saw the talent but wasn't able to coax it out of him or saw the talent but didn't have the skills as a coach to prepare a team to take advantage of it.  All worry me.

 

Ricki is a very conservative coach.  In some cases that is probably no bad thing but it has cost us Kosta and I hope that it doens't cost us Marco.

 

I also annoys me greatly that Ricki is being allowed to get away with the "he rejected our contract offer" line when questioned on this issue by the media.  As I have said earlier, it is a cop-out.

 

I feel very very strongly about this issue because I have seen him play in Wellington since he was about 14 and he may never have gotten a chance in the professional game if it wasn't for the Phoenix, it's exactly how you hope the pathway should work.  Except for the bit about him leaving after getting no opportunities and then dominating elsewhere..."

Normo's coming home

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I know this isn't a thread about Kosta but....*talks about Kosta for a fair few paragraphs*

Allegedly

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
With our limited bench questions:

would Marco have been in a match day squad if we still had Kosta and all other signings fit?

Thought Ricki got some good performances out of Kosta, but was rightly hesitant considering no youth team and the other players available at the time. I think as a club we did all right last season, and that is Ricki's main job.

This is from someone who is dissapointed Kosta left as a Phoenix man, but happy as an NZ football fan he's had a good chance in Brisbane and a different experience where he has thrived...

Merry Christmas y'all!


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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tegal wrote:
I know this isn't a thread about Kosta but....*talks about Kosta for a fair few paragraphs*
not to mention they're pasted paragraphs from the Kosta thread
 
stick to your own rules eh 'backroom staffers'
 
you're giving the likes of HN a bad name
 
oh and merry christmas
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
We are above the law.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Bertos plays better when he's making runs at the opposition, and not holding the ball in his own half waiting for everyone else to get forward.

Marco is doing the same, and credit to them both when they play natural attacking football.

For those of you who missed the point, stoopid.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'd just like to say, if Ricky lets Rojas go like he did with Barbarouses, I will cease to be a Nix supporter.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'd suggest you're not much of a supporter already if you can't spell his name correctly.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
2ndBest wrote:
I'd suggest you're not much of a supporter already if you can't spell his name correctly.


Oh noes I misspelled Ricki while yelling at the TV and being infuriated by our poor performance.

I can't be much of a supporter.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I hope like hell Rojas signs on for 2 or 3 more years - I really don't expect him to stay for more than one more season if he continues to perform but signing him up for longer means we get a transfer fee when he moves.
 
I know this is blasphemy but if I was his manager I'd be looking to move him on to somewhere like the Roar - seeing what Ange P's style of football and calibre of players has done for Kosta's development I could really see Marco thriving in that environment.
 
There is hope for him at the Nix if Herbert finally signs some younger, faster and more skillful players for next season and the deadwood gets moved on - I live in hope.
 
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I guess the next question to ask is would Rojas and Kosta fit into the AW's style of play. The AW's play to a very set pattern.....and it has been very successful. Is there room for fast nimble small guys when the preference has been a defensive game with big guys up front recieving diagonal balls wacked up from the back.?
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
exactly, and look what happened with bertos playing for the AWs.

We have a decent personnel to play a quick fast moving game. We've got these two, plus the likes of Brockie, McGlinchey and even Wood could fit a front three style


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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
zinidane wrote:
I guess the next question to ask is would Rojas and Kosta fit into the AW's style of play. The AW's play to a very set pattern.....and it has been very successful. Is there room for fast nimble small guys when the preference has been a defensive game with big guys up front recieving diagonal balls wacked up from the back.?
Thats all we had to choose from really but the times they are a changing and now we've got a couple of different flavours to try.               Yay us

                                                                        COYN    

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I see good possibilities of attacking All Whites football with the likes of Chris Wood, Kosta, Lil Mac, Rojas and Bertos together, but would depend on them a) being selected and b) being given license to attack
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I dont think we should play smeltz at the same time as killen and wood and fallon as they are too similar players. But we will i bet lol with the little guys on the bench :/ raynes2010-12-29 14:45:46
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
what was on Marco's under shirt when he went to the camera? surely someone must know!

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Size S

Oi Oi Edgecumbe... lets have a clean sheet

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
haha very funny. replay is on now, maybe they will show it. otherwise if you don't have a smart ass answer please feel free to enlighten us.

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I have a smart ass answer...

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
oh Junior82!
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Me too...

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
It's probably just me, but doesn't Marco owe a fair bit of loyalty to the Nix (and the Yellow Fever). He's been plucked from relative obscurity, been given the chance to train in a professional environment and finally given his chance to perform in the A-league. He's repaid the faith that Ricki and the club have shown in him by playing some outstanding football but personally i'd think another season in the a-league to get the experience needed before perhaps heading to Europe in 2013.

Or maybe i'm wrong and football is a cruel heartless game and Marco should just piss off to whoever shows him the most $$$.ScoobyD2011-01-06 20:03:08
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
ScoobyD wrote:
It's probably just me, but doesn't Marco owe a fair bit of loyalty to the Nix (and the Yellow Fever). He's been plucked from relative obscurity, been given the chance to train in a professional environment and finally given his chance to perform in the A-league. He's repaid the faith that Ricki and the club have shown in him by playing some outstanding football but personally i'd think another season in the a-league to get the experience needed before perhaps heading to Europe in 2013.

Or maybe i'm wrong and football is a cruel heartless game and Marco should just piss off to whoever shows him the most $$$.


I'm not saying I disagree, but lets just say that you are paid $50000 per year and someone offered you a contranct for 2 years at $150000 a year. What would do?

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
ScoobyD wrote:
It's probably just me, but doesn't Marco owe a fair bit of loyalty to the Nix (and the Yellow Fever). He's been plucked from relative obscurity, been given the chance to train in a professional environment and finally given his chance to perform in the A-league. He's repaid the faith that Ricki and the club have shown in him by playing some outstanding football but personally i'd think another season in the a-league to get the experience needed before perhaps heading to Europe in 2013.

Or maybe i'm wrong and football is a cruel heartless game and Marco should just piss off to whoever shows him the most $$$.


Completely agree. Kosta actually had a very good reason to leave: no game time. Marco has had alot more game time + He got plucked out of obscurity by the YF there for he doesn't really have a 'good' reason to leave. Not saying they have to have reasons to leave but surely Marco needs to show us a bit of loyalty.
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Marco (and his Dad) just need to work out what's best for his career.

That will involve dosh and game time, and the type of squad/team playing style.

Would love him to stay with us for another season or more but won't begrudge him a move if it advances his prospects/career.

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
If a European club came calling I wouldn't begrudge him the chance to leave, playing in a big league is pretty much every footballers dream.

I mean if he signed to Gold Coast or something I'd be fuming, but if a big money offer came in it would be a bit of a dick move to block the transfer.

edit: Junior you beat me to it! You even used begrudge, now I look like a totally unoriginal jerk
GenericFan2011-01-06 21:22:05
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about 15 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
GenericFan wrote:
I mean if he signed to Gold Coast or something I'd be fuming, but if a big money offer came in it would be a bit of a dick move to block the transfer.


Exactly. We have Smiggle here in Wgtn too.

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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