Have you made a comment on Gareth's blog yet? He's answering most of the posts so get into it...
https://garethsworld.com/blog/wellington-phoenix/phoenix/
yes, and he replied. Said that he has taken my thoughts regarding the advertising on board.
Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA (Part 1)
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Here's mine for the record...
Hi Gareth,
If you are serious about achieving a 10k average attendance in Wellington then your focus needs to be more on season ticket holders, less on the casual fans. To be honest, this season's crowd numbers battle was lost around week 2 or 3 when season ticket sales stalled around the 3.5k mark (correct me if I'm wrong). That's a good improvement on last year but still not enough. You are just never going to be able to sell 6-7k individual match tickets per game consistently throughout the season with Wellington's fickle weather, the ups and downs of team performance etc.
The important thing about season ticket holders is a) you have their money up front (so in some respects it doesn't actually matter if they attend or not) and b) their attendance is much less elastic anyway. Sure season tickets holders like attacking football and winning just like anybody else but they have made a psychological commitment to the team that goes way beyond that and feels more like, gasp, "ownership". I think your number one issue related to crowds/financial sustainability is how do you significantly increase the number of members, and that's a conversation that extends way beyond playing style.
In that context I'm sorry to say that I think the communication from Welnix over the past couple of weeks has been terrible. In particular, talk of moving games away from Wellington is a direct attack on your most precious customers - your season ticket holders - and it does absolutely nothing to help promote season ticket sales to non-members. If you don't currently read the Yellow Fever forums you should. Admittedly there is a lot of stupid in there but you will also find a high number of season ticket holders who are pissed off right now. You need to do something about it, and making well-intentioned but mis-informed statements about playing "total football" isn't it. A public discussion about how to increase season ticket sales (and a serious off-season marketing push) would be so much more productive than threatening to take more games out of town or allowing the media to create a "owners tell coach what style to play" narrative.
Gareth, I'm being blunt because I know that's how you work. Everyone absolutely loves Welnix for what you have already done and I hope you will take the above comments as the constructive criticism they are intended to be.
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Have you made a comment on Gareth's blog yet? He's answering most of the posts so get into it...
https://garethsworld.com/blog/wellington-phoenix/phoenix/
yes, and he replied. Said that he has taken my thoughts regarding the advertising on board.
I know you did Patrick. Good man. My post was aimed at the rest of the forum not you specifically.
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My comment on the Gareth blog
Hi Gareth
With all the respect in the world for your financial commitment to the club, before you continue talking publicly about technical aspects of football coaching and tactics you need to go away and learn a lot more about the game. I think you need to leave the football to the people at the club with football experience and I suggest that you get more football experience at board level.
If I was him I would tell you to pull your head in over this comment
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Have you made a comment on Gareth's blog yet? He's answering most of the posts so get into it...
https://garethsworld.com/blog/wellington-phoenix/phoenix/
yes, and he replied. Said that he has taken my thoughts regarding the advertising on board.
I know you did Patrick. Good man. My post was aimed at the rest of the forum not you specifically.
Ah, right. I'm with you on this one, I really do encourage everyone who has an opinion to comment on his blog, rather than just posting here.
Yellow Fever - Misery loves company
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Fred Woodcock gives Gareth a serve...
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/8094290/Phoenix-need-the-talent-to-back-up-the-talk
Show me the money Gareth!
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Freds only said what the rest of us have. That Morgan should pipe down and let the people he employed carry out his vision rather than him doing it - and splash the cash.
Fred said it in a place that will be seen by many more people though.
Yellow Fever - Misery loves company
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Just shut your cakehole Gareth and give "us" your money to run "our" club how "we" want it to be run.
Clearly "we" all know better.
We'll, most of "us".
Don't forget that collectively "we" have put far more money into the Phoenix (through tickets sales and sky sport subscriptions) than Welnix have, or ever will. Why shouldn't we have our say?
It's only because of capitalist book-keeping trickery than we aren't recognised as having any "ownership" rights.
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Just shut your cakehole Gareth and give "us" your money to run "our" club how "we" want it to be run.
Clearly "we" all know better.
We'll, most of "us".
Don't forget that collectively "we" have put far more money into the Phoenix (through tickets sales and sky sport subscriptions) than Welnix have, or ever will. Why shouldn't we have our say?
It's only because of capitalist book-keeping trickery than we aren't recognised as having any "ownership" rights.
Terry must have been over the moon when you sent him your cheque for your share of his losses.
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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We do get our say. We get it relative to the amount contributed. Considering my Sky subscription and what part is football and how much of a minuscule percentage of the total money put in (0.00000000001% would be close) I get my say in this on-line forum and my contribution is accounted for in the exact same worth as I contribute financially i.e. you want a say, pony up some real cold hard Benjamin's cause tickets and a sky subscription entitle us to a say of fudge all....
Grumpy old bastard alert
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Just shut your cakehole Gareth and give "us" your money to run "our" club how "we" want it to be run.
Clearly "we" all know better.
We'll, most of "us".
Don't forget that collectively "we" have put far more money into the Phoenix (through tickets sales and sky sport subscriptions) than Welnix have, or ever will. Why shouldn't we have our say?
It's only because of capitalist book-keeping trickery than we aren't recognised as having any "ownership" rights.
Yeah right (not)
Good you get your say now direct with the owner tho, and he responds gracefully
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We do get our say. We get it relative to the amount contributed. Considering my Sky subscription and what part is football and how much of a minuscule percentage of the total money put in (0.00000000001% would be close) I get my say in this on-line forum and my contribution is accounted for in the exact same worth as I contribute financially i.e. you want a say, pony up some real cold hard Benjamin's cause tickets and a sky subscription entitle us to a say of fudge all....
So you don't believe in any form of consumer advocacy or users associations or collective bargaining power or supporter's trusts then?
What really is the balance of power between "owners" and fans? What should it be?
In the words of the great Jordan Luck "who needs who the most?"
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We do get our say. We get it relative to the amount contributed. Considering my Sky subscription and what part is football and how much of a minuscule percentage of the total money put in (0.00000000001% would be close) I get my say in this on-line forum and my contribution is accounted for in the exact same worth as I contribute financially i.e. you want a say, pony up some real cold hard Benjamin's cause tickets and a sky subscription entitle us to a say of fudge all....
None of that funny money, e hoa.
Me - I've got a bag* bursting at the seams with cold hard "pukakis". I'm a serious stakeholder I am.
* by bag I mean a small ziplock for school lunch money and by "bursting at the seams" I mean maybe 4 or 5 of them.
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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Anyhoo.
I'm actually not too angsty about Gareth's comments on coaching 101 - because they are patently silly coming from him and everyone can see it.
I'm still angsty about Rob Morrison's comments about taking more games away from Wgtn over time. As I've said, one more game isn't the issue, it's how many more after that.
(And to all the mjp2s out there - read the comments again about how it is regardless of crowd numbers or wins)
"Phoenix till they lose"
Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion.
Genuine opinion: FTFFA
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What do people think of the crux of Gareth's blog:
(a) we need a change of style to win the thing;
(b) changing style isn't about changing players or management, and can be done independently;
(c) even though he doesn't know a lot about football, any "evidence based approach" whomever it is suggested by is useful to running a business including a football club (I think that's the point, I wasn't 100% clear).
I agree with him on (a), but respectfully disagree on (b) and (c)...
Normo's coming home
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I've been impressed by his response to comments on the whole, but agree that he hasn't convinced me on point b) above.
I do really like his open engagement and his respect of people's opinions. He is genuinely taking them onboard and looking for helpful suggestions.
Great bloke I must say.
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We do get our say. We get it relative to the amount contributed. Considering my Sky subscription and what part is football and how much of a minuscule percentage of the total money put in (0.00000000001% would be close) I get my say in this on-line forum and my contribution is accounted for in the exact same worth as I contribute financially i.e. you want a say, pony up some real cold hard Benjamin's cause tickets and a sky subscription entitle us to a say of fudge all....
So you don't believe in any form of consumer advocacy or users associations or collective bargaining power or supporter's trusts then?
What really is the balance of power between "owners" and fans? What should it be?
In the words of the great Jordan Luck "who needs who the most?"
I know what you mean and think you've had some great posts on the thread, but it's just the reality of what they have at risk versus what we do
They need football like a hole in the wallet.
and footy fans that want an A League team need Welnix more than they need us.
Sure we put up something like 8k*$25*14=$2.8m in ticket sales. +TV
But if we don't turn up, who's on the hook to fund however much of that $2.8m that might not come in? Us or them? In addition to the $2m they are already expecting to front for as a typical loss.
They are the guys with it on the line.
I think they get to make the calls
When you have that much at risk you get to make the calls. But sure, they should want to know what the fans think. I think they have a good idea that the wider group of fans want more entertaining and they are not just shooting from the hip with this.
Trouble is they have to make some judgement calls around the bazillion different opinions out there, plus the difference betwen what hardcore might want and what a wider audience might want. Seems to me they are listening. When the Fever are chanting "we don't know what we're doing" they are not going to do nothing about it. Maybe they should have had a committee meeting with James Dean, Steve-O, Hard News and Feverish to decide what to do? Maybe a public meeting in the CakeTin? Someone has to make the call and they have.
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Maybe they should have had a committee meeting with Hard News and Feverish to decide what to do?
So............ will the scantily clad, nubile cheerleaders be serving cider in the FZ on Saturday? or has this meeting not taken place yet?
We're the WELLINGTON Phoenix
And this is our Home
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Thats a fascinating discussion on the Blog. Good on all of you who have posted and massive kudos to Gareth for replying. I don't disagree with much he says but then agree with most of what the posters are saying as well.
I think he and others are using 'style' in quite different ways. I don't think he is confining it (or maybe I hope he isn't) to what goes on on the pitch. I think he is talking about the ethos/culture/style of the club as a whole. From recruitment to management etc etc. I think peoples ears pricked up when he used 'total football' as the term and for most football followers that has a very specific meaning.
www.kiwifromthecouch.blogspot.com
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HHHHMMMMM .... wonders aloud what some on YF would react to this article on the Mariners.... essentially management seems prepared to sell some of our best players in the January transfer window .... to build a long term foundation at the COE... weeMac, Ryan, Rogic, Pedj .... not because we need the money for the A-League.... we need to put in place a structure to ensure long term survival .. the reaction has been over whelming support... we accept short term pain for long term strength and survival...
The story and method may be different but you have owners who from the outside seem to have a plan to build a club around .... maybe listen to their dream ...
How would this go down at with YF...
https://www.footballaustralia.com.au/cockerill-opinion-display/Mariners-moving-towards-a-bright-future/55832
Mariners moving towards a bright future
Might is not always right. Central Coast Mariners prove it, time and again. And yet despite the romance, the spirit, and the wonder, of their enduring ability to defy the odds, there are those who still argue against their value in helping to build the Hyundai A-League.
There are endless questions not only about their ability to survive, but their right to survive. This is a club which represents the smallest population base in the competition, after all. Not only that but - because it's a commuter belt wedged between Sydney and Newcastle - it's also the most loosely defined. The inference being, what can the Mariners possibly bring to the table? The answer is simple. Plenty.
We all know what the Mariners have achieved so far. On and off the pitch. It's the stuff of fables, in truth. And there's no evidence of complacency. Central Coast are clearly the best team in the league this season. After three heart-rendering near-misses, a maiden championship is theirs for the taking. They're that good, and that focused.
Perhaps they may have to complete the job without key players like Mat Ryan, Tom Rogic, Michael McGlinchey and Pedj Bojic if they go in the January transfer window. But complete it they should. Graham Arnold doesn't like selling his stars, but he's always got a contingency plan. We saw it last season with the departures of Matt Simon, Alex Wilkinson and Rostyn Griffiths, and if we see it again over the next month expect the likes of Justin Pasfield, Anthony Caceres, Brad McDonald and Troy Hearfield to step up to the plate. 'Arnie' is meticulous to the point of obsession.
In a way, getting results has proved to be the easy part for the Mariners. They've been doing that since the start thanks to astute recruiting, a spirited dressing room culture, and a trademark siege mentality.
What's changed is they're doing it with more style, more structure, and more purpose. If you haven't noticed how much the quality of the average Central Coast player has improved, you haven't been watching very closely. The Mariners now get players other clubs want. That's a huge vote of confidence in how they've evolved.
But the real reason why they struggle to shake off the doubters is something more prosaic. Money.
The assumption being they will never have the financial stability to grow as the league grows. Wrong. Again, if you haven't been noticing how they have re-structured their business, you haven't been looking too hard. While it's unlikely Central Coast will ever be a rich club, they don't have to remain a poor one. The Centre of Excellence project at Tuggerah is the ticket to long-term viability, and it's only another 12-18 months before those revenue streams start to effectively underwrite the football club.
The tough decisions Peter Turnbull and Mike Charlesworth make today are all about making sure the club can reap those benefits. In that context, selling a player or two to pay the bills in the meantime is a small price to pay.
So if we imagine the Mariners in a decade, or two, what do we see? A club entrenched in a rapidly growing community, a community which has discovered pride in its own identity, based at a state-of-the-art facility which it rents to clubs from all over the state and parts of Asia, playing fixtures out of a stadium it manages and develops, drawing an increasing number of players from it's own backyard, attracting others because of world-class standards in coaching, strength and conditioning and sports science, offering an established development pathway through an academy system and a semi-professional feeder team, and all this in a part of the world which provides a lifestyle to envy.
Not every club can be big and brash, or rich and famous, or fill stadiums, or buy players instead of sell them. Central Coast Mariners will never be that club, and in most cases they don't want to be. But they are just as important to the future of the Hyundai A-League as everyone else. Give them time and they'll prove it. In the meantime, give them a break.
Socceroo/ Mariner / Whangarei
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I'm glad he's having the debate, I think there's some interesting stuff in his answers too. I'd just like to know how they plan to execute this change in style
I'm with you on this. Gareth is a smart guy and throws himself into everything he gets involved with. And he's not scared to think outside the square. I'll take the odd 'own goal' from a relative footballing newbie in exchange for everything else he brings to the game.
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What do people think of the crux of Gareth's blog:
(a) we need a change of style to win the thing;
(b) changing style isn't about changing players or management, and can be done independently;
(c) even though he doesn't know a lot about football, any "evidence based approach" whomever it is suggested by is useful to running a business including a football club (I think that's the point, I wasn't 100% clear).
I agree with him on (a), but respectfully disagree on (b) and (c)...
I love the way you have been trying to goad him into saying "sack Ricki" but he keeps sidestepping it!
Another thing he's tried to resile from in a few comments is the taking games away from Wellington thing, which he now says is no more than one more ("which is what we said a year ago"!).
Personally I think the greatest obstacle to a style change is our players. The midfield just can't do it (too much to expect from Sanchez on his own. He's good but not that good).
I actually don't buy the line that Ricki just can't do it either. He should be able to - he's an experienced, well-qualified coach - it's just never been his preference to play that way.
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I'm glad he's having the debate, I think there's some interesting stuff in his answers too. I'd just like to know how they plan to execute this change in style
I'm with you on this. Gareth is a smart guy and throws himself into everything he gets involved with. And he's not scared to think outside the square. I'll take the odd 'own goal' from a relative footballing newbie in exchange for everything else he brings to the game.
So have you asked him?
E + R + O
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