Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA

wow. I can't even see one sentence of that post that was ignorant, intolerant or arrogant. 

Soooooo....

What's the topic of choice in here today then?

All good.

OK, so this is not written for an ownership perspective but some parallels could drawn between what Dortmund are doing and the Nix should be working towards.  Really is worth a read

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29624410

Great article, one of the greatest football clubs in the world!

I know a new stadium is off the table for now but I think while the Nix are playing their home games at Westpac Stadium there's not much you can change about the match day experience which seems to be so cruicial.

How much control do Welnix have about food / ticket prices, stadium announcer, and about what is and what isn't allowed (flags, flares etc.) inside the stadium ?

I'll try again.

Support for a team has many origins. This may be by birth, by parental/family background or by residential reasons.
The problem for the Phoenix is attracting high attendance at the stadium is beyond football, it's a problem for all live sport in NZ.
There is no desire from fans of any club/provincial team in any sport in NZ to turn up to the live match in numbers, unless they're winning consistently and are play-off contenders
Sports occasions in NZ are well-supported when the team is doing well, success is the driver not the sport 

There are far too many other things to do in New Zealand that's the trouble. John Key... sort it out.

Let's focus on the positives here.

The Phoenix are close to if not the best supported sporting team in Wellington (total crowd numbers per season).

There were 7500 people there on Sunday for an ordinary league game, poor team on a very bad run of results against Perth, not a glamour side.  That's disappointing but if it was 8500 people it would have apparently been fine.  That 1000 people.  They are in the ball park, it's not as if they need to double crowds.

The club need to move on, start focusing on the people who are turning up and stop turning every slightly poor crowd into a story about the future of the club is on the line.  Who knows, perhaps if they started understanding why people go they might do a better job of attracting the missing 1-2k they are so obsessed with.  

And if they want to obsess over crowds, which is frankly tedious, how about doing it behind closed doors for once because I am sick of hearing about it and it's not news!

The article in the paper on Tuesday after a Sunday game should be about, in no particular order:

- follow up from Ernie with more detail about the team's performance

- injury news etc

- discussion of how the new guys went, maybe some quotes,

- thinking about possible changes for the weekend

Dome needs to get on top of the media and go back to PR 101 - control the news cycle. The dompost will write crap from time to time but there is far too much focus on off field stuff.  The last thing we need after 1 game, 1 GAME, is more Phoenix in crisis headlines.

Focus on the football and the fans you have, it's so simple I don't understand why this isn't happening.

Absolutely agree.

It's time to appreciate the 7700 that do turn up.

I like to put it into context:

- The standard of the football in NZ / Australia is much lower than in Europe and South America (Whereas we are up against some of the best Cricketers / Rugby pros in the world)

- There are many sports which are popular in NZ

- NZ has a small population

Considering this and the fact we are not playing well to me shows that a crowd of 7000+ is actually pretty good!

Perhaps we should try and focus on how to make a pro football club with the crowds we're getting work, rather than focusing too much on trying to increase attendances?

More people are watching pro football than Super Rugby in Wellington.  Why not point that out?!

Sign Ronaldo.

I thought Hurricanes attendances are higher?

Continuing JDs theme of focusing on the positive and also picking up on a few of the EPL references...

I have found my interest in the EPL has waned completely since the arrival of the Nix. I support my home town team now and that's it.

Like some others on here I went and watched quite a bit of football when I was living in the UK but, ironically, that was kind of when my interest started to die. I enjoyed the experience but always felt a bit disconnected. I would watch the home fans and I could see I would never feel as emotionally committed as they were.

So having a hometown pro team playing in a decent league, even if it's not the EPL, has been great, really amazing actually. And I can  honestly say I value the A-League much more than the EPL or any other overseas league. I try and watch every A-League game I can, wouldn't even get close to that for any other league.

It's interesting how a lot of people just assume you have an EPL team though. I'm like "nah, I just support the Nix" and they're all like "whaaaat?". I love saying that actually.

Maybe average crowds, but not total attendances

I would suggest the are comparing it to one of the top leagues like the EPL or La Liga. I think they expect it to be of that quality without figuring out how it can not actually be to that standard, and we need to either perform beter on the field or give the perception something good is on offer by signing a marquee AND winning.

I think we're wrong to assume all football players want to be live football spectators.

Actually, just as many hardcore Phoenix fans don't or have never played football or watched football on TV

I think partly there's needs to be more focus on how great going to live sport is.  That's partly about winning, partly about feeling connected to the team and partly about the match day experience - all of these can be improved on

Anyone else think now is the time to actually get a few Rocket Scientists in just to help solve a few problems? Couldn't hurt.

Not a rocket scientist but I do know a geo-physicist.  The answer to the the highlighted problem is quite simple: score one more goal than the opposition.

(thanks Fat Les)

Rocket science is mathematics that has no relation to getting crowds into a venue. We need the ghost of PT Barnum.

Yes you are both quite right , after all it isn't rocket science. Houdini could also draw a crowd but could not be contacted after he died despite many attempts. I suspect Barnum might also be difficult to get hold of.

What about the Topp Twins? They've pulled in a few crowds over the years and are not remanimated corspes, allegedly.

Read the David Dome interview in Dom post - Shocking way to treat your fans.

This franchise/club thing has reared itself in English Rugby in the past couple of weeks with London Wasps moving to Coventry. Similarish story where the club couldn't survive where it was situated and has therefore moved to Coventry where it thinks it will be able to survive. By virtue of owning its own stadium. Interesting article here about the franchise v club thing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11158430/Franchises-do-not-generally-work-in-the-parochial-tribal-world-of-sport-but-Wasps-have-no-other-option.html

Professional sport in NZ has never really done clubs, has always been representative sport or franchises. The NRL has some teams which are 'club' based I guess but the link is pretty thin these days. Turning a franchise into a 'club' is something that very few have been able to do, maybe the Warriors are getting close but its a tough one.

They are 100% comparing it to the EPL or La Liga.  I have pointed out the inadequacies in that argument, but some peoples perception is hard to shift.  And TBF, there is only so much bandwagon beating you can do before pissing people off

Theres a sucker born every minute ?

Hmmm , Ill agree with that ....

We just need to start winning isn't really a viable solution. In a salary capped league where we are always going to be at some disadvantage attracting players (for a range of reasons) we have to accept that we will go through rough patches.

We are always going to be one of the smaller A-League clubs; expecting to win consistently is totally unrealistic. If the club can't survive these unsuccessful on-field periods then it can't survive.

The club needs to have a business/sporting model that allows it to keep its head above water over times like the last couple of seasons. I suspect WelNix get this and it is the reason the model includes taking games away and trying to play more attractively; which hopefully puts bums on seats even when the results aren't good. They clearly don't think the short term crowd boosts they will get from marquee players are worth it, and I would be inclined to agree.

What they do need to do differently is avoid making fans they do have fell. underappreciated, and work really hard to build the core fanbase. I am not at all convinced they are doing enough to attract young people who will stick with the club for life. Mates of mine who used to go to every home game are now poor students who can't afford to go at all.

There is a real risk of losing fans who can't or won't pay because their connection to the club is not enough to justify what it costs. Frankly, the Carlsberg offer of $18.47 tickets did not strike me as a good deal at all when you consider the quality of the stadium, the football and the atmosphere.

It all got a bit weird right at the start with a poll for what the team should be named. Reeked a bit of the failed Black Caps Mascot debacle...who calls a mascot Stumpy!

Hey y''all...can we try keep chat about crowds here http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/categories/wellington-phoenix-discussion/topics/crowds as the same discussions are going on in both.

Keep your pathetic and unsophisticated chat about Gareth in here.

Lets paint the scenario and imagine that we did not have Krishna and signed a marquee striker? (and you could pick a name to suit your argument because its outside the cap - there is no limit on what quality you can afford) Straight away you move Brockie to the bench because you have a striker, the 1v1 would have had a better chance of being slotted if we assume that the striker is the point man and the game may have changed from that goal. Now you are P1 W1 and feeling better. You also have a marketable player that people may recognise or you can leverage off the level he has played at (do not underestimate the sales at MCFC with Duff and Villa because they are names people know and Villa is a Spanish international thats won it all) and as you are winning, the crowds and interest increases. What was the home semi crowd size - 30k? The marquee has then paid for himself in extra gate sales. Lets say 13 home games with 5k people extra and those extra 5k people pay $20 a head. Thats $1.3m and your marquee has paid for himself. Oh and you are winning, people are interested and you are viewed as successful.

It sounds easy because it is. The devil in the detail is making sure you sign the correct marquee and scout properly.

The part about making fans feel under appreciated is bang on the money.

Response to this in the Crowds thread JD...

Jeff - you'd be surprised at the number of teams that have a wasted import. Heck, even Brisbane Roar who won the league at a canter last season had Jean Carlos Solorzano on their books (and still do), and he only made 3 appearances last season.

While I agree you cant build a club around always being successful, you equally cant build one around always being pants. You need to provide people with some sort of hope and it has been a long time since the general public has felt that. 

Welnix cant plan around us always making the grand final, but they should be able to plan around us not being in the bottom 2 consistently.

Loving the great discussion in here over the last couple of days.

On the supporting an EPL team issue, I have been an Arsenal fan my whole life. This mainly started due to originally being from North London and being very close with my Grandfather who attended matches from the 1930s to 1990s (my first visit to Highbury was doing the stadium tour with him as a kid and that's one of my most cherished memories). They have always been on of my biggest passions and, as sad as it may sound, not many things in my life mean more to me.

After my family emigrated to NZ I grew up in Auckland so when the Phoenix started I always watched the games on TV but didn't support them as I didn't feel any connection to Wellington having only ever been here once on a school trip. Then in 2009 I got a job here and moved down. I started going to matches initially as a football lover, having always dreamed of being a match going fan but not having the option with my team. I tried joining in with chants and I celebrated goals etc but it didn't immediately affect me in the way Arsenal do. It did take a few games to come to terms with the idea of calling another team "us" and "we" because I had never imagined the possibility of supporting another domestic team. Even in any other sport I have generally just supported the England national team but not been able to feel anything for any domestic team.

The day I'd say I officially became a fan was the playoff penalty shootout win against Perth as it was first time I got completely absorbed in the match and celebrated the winning penalty as if it was Arsenal in the Champions League. It was also my partner's first game having just joined me in Wellington and she enjoyed it so much she kept saying "please, we have to come next week" and I kept having to explain that they needed to win for there to be a next week. Now we're season ticket holders. 

Understand everyone has different reasons. The quality of play, results or prices were never the main things for me, it's mainly getting to be a regular match going fan.

Great story. Thanks for sharing it with us ajc. We need more of these. We need to tell these stories of how people slip and slide and fall in love with The Nix. They could be part of a TV ad campaign...

tl;dr

Heh, fair enough.

8th 6th 4th 6th 4th10th 9th finishing over the seven years

if we are an average A League team, to balance all the poor years, we are up for

2nd 4th 6th 4th 6th 1st 2nd

sounds a bit better doesn't it. 

Dome has been talking Phoenix on RS after 9.

http://www.radiosport.co.nz/listen-on-demand/weeko...