Wellington Phoenix Men

Phoenix Transfer Speculation 2013/14

4835 replies · 677,025 views
over 12 years ago

And which Kiwis are these exactly? Smeltz, Rojas, Barbarousos, Wee Mac, Brockie, Bertos - not exactly huge numbers. It is a fact that Clapham is a foreigner to Aussie clubs and therefore not that easy for him to be signed. Unless someone knows the real reason why the Nix aren't interested [either under RH or EM] we can only go on what we see of him on the pitch and I say he looks good enough to play for us. He's not an import so it wouldn't be a question of not signing him because he is up against Carlos - what happens if Carlos gets injured? Is there anyone else [not an import] that might be able to play a similar role? 


You forgot Moss, Appiah-Kubi and Roux (?). 9 is a decent number if you think about the total number of Kiwis playing in the league. 

Agree with you that Clapham taking a foreign spot made it harder for him to be signed by other clubs, but something doesn't add up when you think that we could have signed him a number of times - and decided against it time and time again.

I think if Ernie had been interested in him, he wouldn't have signed Brindell-South to bring our playing roster to 20.




Pretty sure Appiah-Kubi and Roux don't count as imports though which makes the deal a lot easier.
Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
TV wrote:
Leave the Gifs to the experts

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
Sackofspuds wrote:

And which Kiwis are these exactly? Smeltz, Rojas, Barbarousos, Wee Mac, Brockie, Bertos - not exactly huge numbers. It is a fact that Clapham is a foreigner to Aussie clubs and therefore not that easy for him to be signed. Unless someone knows the real reason why the Nix aren't interested [either under RH or EM] we can only go on what we see of him on the pitch and I say he looks good enough to play for us. He's not an import so it wouldn't be a question of not signing him because he is up against Carlos - what happens if Carlos gets injured? Is there anyone else [not an import] that might be able to play a similar role? 


You forgot Moss, Appiah-Kubi and Roux (?). 9 is a decent number if you think about the total number of Kiwis playing in the league. 

Agree with you that Clapham taking a foreign spot made it harder for him to be signed by other clubs, but something doesn't add up when you think that we could have signed him a number of times - and decided against it time and time again.

I think if Ernie had been interested in him, he wouldn't have signed Brindell-South to bring our playing roster to 20.




Pretty sure Appiah-Kubi and Roux don't count as imports though which makes the deal a lot easier.
pretty sure Smeltz has an Aussie passport too

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

so does moss

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

I've never seen any performance from Clapham which demands, or even strongly suggests, he should make the Phoenix. I must have seen him about 10 times now. He's ok at times, but compared to how some people praise him, I am generally underwhelmed at his play. If he did get signed I wouldn't be too worried (like I was regarding Lindsay getting a 3 year contract after seeing him) but at the same time I just cant see him making a significant impact.

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

Can't believe the Clapham debate is back.


Surely the fact he hasn't gone and got a gig in Indonesia, Thailand or India is a big indicator that he doesnt have either:
A) the ability
B) the drive


And actually think its the latter


Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

He's too busy spending his time on the Erin Simpson Show...



Yellow Fever - Misery loves company

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
TV wrote:

Clapham equalizes. 

Makes sense, we are due a "sign Clapham" campaign. It's been a few months or so...


Leave the Gifs to the experts


I know right. That was the worst gif to use there.


Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

If there one thing i've learn't from passing word about Aaron Clapham is that he has a huge ego, mainly due to being part of the squad that went to south africa. He never overly impressed me at AWs level either plus the fact that he hasnt got a pro contract anywhere else, or attempted too has me dubious. Although I have no doubt he would probably be better than lia, would Ernie want to take a risk on someone who is about to peak and probably has little chance of developing into a better player in the league. Or  pick a young guy who can step in as a sub for a season or two and then progress to reach a higher potential.

yung thug

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

Clapham could make a handy squad player.

Is he able to be a box-to-box player? If so that would make him a handy addition to the squad as at the moment we have attacking and defensive midfielders.

I thought the reports from the state leagues about him were good too. 

Ernie has a plan so we have to wait and see what he does and trust him, but the reports of a reassuring signing of a midfielder of quality haven't happened yet.



Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
martinb wrote:

Clapham could make a handy squad player.

Is he able to be a box-to-box player? If so that would make him a handy addition to the squad as at the moment we have attacking and defensive midfielders.

I thought the reports from the state leagues about him were good too. 

Ernie has a plan so we have to wait and see what he does and trust him, but the reports of a reassuring signing of a midfielder of quality haven't happened yet.



 



Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
Jeff Vader wrote:

So tell me how he is competition for Lia and Manny who are defensive midfielders when he plays an attacking midfield role, the very same one occupied by Carlos and also Rufer (and we could probably throw in Ifill as well if we needed to)?

The point seems to be lost on you that we need DEFENSIVE midfielders, not ATTACKING midfilders (of which, we have plenty of players in the front 3rd already). Clapham is not a DEFENSIVE midfielder.

Attacking minded footballers can still play as defensive/holding midfielders. I've seen a decent amount of criticism on these forums about the inability of Muscat and Lia to help maintain possession as well as the transition of the ball from the defensive unit to the attacking unit. In my opinion, Clapham certainly has the ability to do this from the times I've seen him play in a deeper role. Playing as a defensive/holding midfielder is not just about tackling, intercepting and shielding the back four ... you also play a huge role in a side actually being able to control the game and the tempo that it is played at. Clapham isn't a like for like replacement for Muscat or Lia, but he would provide competition as his skill set would give us something that Muscat and Lia cannot.

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

Can the mods just establish a blanket rule that anyone who comes on saying we sign Clapham gets a week ban.

I keep seeing new posts, get interested and then get more Clapham crap

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
MetalLegNZ wrote:

Clapham crap

Crapham?

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

Here is a position that has not been stated but is pertinent to the conversation.


Let play devils advocate. Let's go along with the fact that he is that good and Ernie and Ricki are silly pricks. If this is the case, why hasn't Emblen or Ramon wanted him in Auckland because surely if he is that good, he'd standout and make those sides better, right? Why has Calcott not said, 'Hey come play for me. You can be a leader to the kids and have access to the Phoenix'. He is gonna get his wedge regardless where he goes I suspect so why go to Australia for 6 weeks when he has the chance to get in front of a new coach, clean slate and spend a couple of weeks showing what he has.


The more I think about it, the more I think attitude/ambition/drive is probably the issue. Is lazy a term ever been associated with him or is that reaching. Someone mentioned ego before....

Grumpy old bastard alert

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
RichieRich wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

So tell me how he is competition for Lia and Manny who are defensive midfielders when he plays an attacking midfield role, the very same one occupied by Carlos and also Rufer (and we could probably throw in Ifill as well if we needed to)?

The point seems to be lost on you that we need DEFENSIVE midfielders, not ATTACKING midfilders (of which, we have plenty of players in the front 3rd already). Clapham is not a DEFENSIVE midfielder.

Attacking minded footballers can still play as defensive/holding midfielders. I've seen a decent amount of criticism on these forums about the inability of Muscat and Lia to help maintain possession as well as the transition of the ball from the defensive unit to the attacking unit. In my opinion, Clapham certainly has the ability to do this from the times I've seen him play in a deeper role. Playing as a defensive/holding midfielder is not just about tackling, intercepting and shielding the back four ... you also play a huge role in a side actually being able to control the game and the tempo that it is played at. Clapham isn't a like for like replacement for Muscat or Lia, but he would provide competition as his skill set would give us something that Muscat and Lia cannot.



Shush.

We got rid of Ricki cos his teams couldn't pass but we want Lia and Manny starting in the midfield. I've heard a lot of scorn heaped on Clapham, but we've been waiting all this blardy long off season for that DM who could pass or a box-to-box midfielder that we all knew we needed and we haven't had anything apart from a bit of a rumour about Matt Thompson which came to nothing.



Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
nufc_nz wrote:
martinb wrote:

Clapham could make a handy squad player.

Is he able to be a box-to-box player? If so that would make him a handy addition to the squad as at the moment we have attacking and defensive midfielders.

I thought the reports from the state leagues about him were good too. 

Ernie has a plan so we have to wait and see what he does and trust him, but the reports of a reassuring signing of a midfielder of quality haven't happened yet.



 




Thats how you gif


Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
martinb wrote:
RichieRich wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

So tell me how he is competition for Lia and Manny who are defensive midfielders when he plays an attacking midfield role, the very same one occupied by Carlos and also Rufer (and we could probably throw in Ifill as well if we needed to)?

The point seems to be lost on you that we need DEFENSIVE midfielders, not ATTACKING midfilders (of which, we have plenty of players in the front 3rd already). Clapham is not a DEFENSIVE midfielder.

Attacking minded footballers can still play as defensive/holding midfielders. I've seen a decent amount of criticism on these forums about the inability of Muscat and Lia to help maintain possession as well as the transition of the ball from the defensive unit to the attacking unit. In my opinion, Clapham certainly has the ability to do this from the times I've seen him play in a deeper role. Playing as a defensive/holding midfielder is not just about tackling, intercepting and shielding the back four ... you also play a huge role in a side actually being able to control the game and the tempo that it is played at. Clapham isn't a like for like replacement for Muscat or Lia, but he would provide competition as his skill set would give us something that Muscat and Lia cannot.



Shush.

We got rid of Ricki cos his teams couldn't pass but we want Lia and Manny starting in the midfield. I've heard a lot of scorn heaped on Clapham, but we've been waiting all this blardy long off season for that DM who could pass or a box-to-box midfielder that we all knew we needed and we haven't had anything apart from a bit of a rumour about Matt Thompson which came to nothing.

Matt Thompson is a box-to-box midfielder as well, and after trialing with the nix, was not given a contract. I don't think Clapham is as good as Thompson, certainly Thompson is more proven at A-league level. The fact that we passed on Thompson suggests to me that Ernie is going for an all (import DM) or nothing (sign one of the young guys) approach  and Clapham doesn't fit in either catergory.

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:

Here is a position that has not been stated but is pertinent to the conversation.


Let play devils advocate. Let's go along with the fact that he is that good and Ernie and Ricki are silly pricks. If this is the case, why hasn't Emblen or Ramon wanted him in Auckland because surely if he is that good, he'd standout and make those sides better, right? Why has Calcott not said, 'Hey come play for me. You can be a leader to the kids and have access to the Phoenix'. He is gonna get his wedge regardless where he goes I suspect so why go to Australia for 6 weeks when he has the chance to get in front of a new coach, clean slate and spend a couple of weeks showing what he has.


The more I think about it, the more I think attitude/ambition/drive is probably the issue. Is lazy a term ever been associated with him or is that reaching. Someone mentioned ego before....

Herbert picks Clapham in his All White squads. Not exactly a great argument, but it's a start. Herbert also said he wouldn't sign Clapham because he wouldn't improve on the midfield that we had at the time. That's not the same as saying Clapham isn't good enough. So there goes your argument that Herbert doesn't rate Clapham on two fronts. All you can really say is that Herbert didn't consider Clapham an improvement on the midfielders he had at that time.


Nothing like a bit of pure speculation to make an argument either! How do you know that Emblen or Ramon didn't want him in Auckland? Maybe Clapham has a family to think about and a life in Christchurch? See I can speculate too! Also, why should a player have to play for one of the top two clubs to get a chance with the Phoenix? A player should be selected on their relative merits and not based on the team which they represent.


You're also going to vilify him for going to Australia for 6 weeks? You were one of the people criticising Clapham for not doing enough and that he should go over to Australia to prove himself etc etc. You can't say that he should go over and then criticize him for doing just that.


Good to see your not afraid to continue speculating with your last statement - "I think attitude/ambition/drive is the probably the issue". Where's your evidence other than what someone else has heard from someone else? I could just as easily say that going to Australia for 6 weeks and cutting short your holiday to play for NZ A in a meaningless friendly game shows that he does have the ambition and drive. Once again not a strong argument, but at least it's stronger than yours.


Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

I think Bertsch and Gulley will get signed. Don't think Clapham will be in Ernie's mind really. He's getting old and Ernie is far more likely to take a risk with two eager, enthusiastic youngsters that could have long careers and improve throughout the years. I guess Clapham was just unlucky more than anything that he didn't get signed. He probably would step up and be a good A-league player if he was given a chance, but many players simply don't get given a go for one reason or another. There is a lot more that goes on behind the scenes that we don't hear or know about. It's poilitics man. So much politics within professional football.

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

I've been nothing but impressed with Ernie - the way he communicates, his clarity of thought, his ambition for a more attractive brand of football and his obvious passion for developing youth.
I'm very comfortable with our front half of the park and more than happy to back Ernie's judgement on the young FBs making the grade. With Dura and brain engaged Sigmund we're in good shape at CB.

The missing piece of the puzzle for me is that pivotal DM - one of Lia or Manny on the park at one time, with a very specific job to do, is OK but not both of them. We desperately need that link between our back four (they aren't great distributors) and our front half of the park.

I recall Ernie saying his was going to make the call on how he was going to fill the DM spot (i.e. import or out of the current squad) after the NZ A game. I hope he can find and sign a bloody good import DM.

I’m so looking forward to this season – new coach, new playing style, great new sponsor, cool stripy, Carlos, Kenny ............



 

 


 

He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
Whitby boy wrote:
The missing piece of the puzzle for me is that pivotal DM - one of Lia or Manny on the park at one time, with a very specific job to do, is OK but not both of them. We desperately need that link between our back four (they aren't great distributors) and our front half of the park.
Agree. Lia showed us this in the NZ A game when he received the ball from the back (short pass) and he shat himself, gave the ball away and almost conceded. Unless he's in acres of space and likely playing a long ball/switch he looks pretty uncomfortable on the ball most the time. Manny isn't any better with link play, we all know what he's there for and it's not that.

Fuck this stupid game

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
Whitby boy wrote:

I've been nothing but impressed with Ernie - the way he communicates, his clarity of thought, his ambition for a more attractive brand of football and his obvious passion for developing youth.
I'm very comfortable with our front half of the park and more than happy to back Ernie's judgement on the young FBs making the grade. With Dura and brain engaged Sigmund we're in good shape at CB.

The missing piece of the puzzle for me is that pivotal DM - one of Lia or Manny on the park at one time, with a very specific job to do, is OK but not both of them. We desperately need that link between our back four (they aren't great distributors) and our front half of the park.

I recall Ernie saying his was going to make the call on how he was going to fill the DM spot (i.e. import or out of the current squad) after the NZ A game. I hope he can find and sign a bloody good import DM.

I’m so looking forward to this season – new coach, new playing style, great new sponsor, cool stripy, Carlos, Kenny ............


Agree totally. Am very enthused with Ernie and his decisions to date. But just hope we find the class DM we need. Just wish it would happen soon, as I think we can give it a good old shake. I just don't want to watch any more Nix away games where we constantly find ourselves under pressure playing the ball out from the back, and just get over run.   

     
 

 


 

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
TopLeft07 wrote:
Whitby boy wrote:
The missing piece of the puzzle for me is that pivotal DM - one of Lia or Manny on the park at one time, with a very specific job to do, is OK but not both of them. We desperately need that link between our back four (they aren't great distributors) and our front half of the park.
Agree. Lia showed us this in the NZ A game when he received the ball from the back (short pass) and he shat himself, gave the ball away and almost conceded. Unless he's in acres of space and likely playing a long ball/switch he looks pretty uncomfortable on the ball most the time. Manny isn't any better with link play, we all know what he's there for and it's not that.

If you were scouting us you'd look at applying pressure in central midfield, forcing us to go long and then making it very difficult for us to get the ball to Hernandez in attacking third.  It's an obvious weak spot

Normo's coming home

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
RichieRich wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

Here is a position that has not been stated but is pertinent to the conversation.


Let play devils advocate. Let's go along with the fact that he is that good and Ernie and Ricki are silly pricks. If this is the case, why hasn't Emblen or Ramon wanted him in Auckland because surely if he is that good, he'd standout and make those sides better, right? Why has Calcott not said, 'Hey come play for me. You can be a leader to the kids and have access to the Phoenix'. He is gonna get his wedge regardless where he goes I suspect so why go to Australia for 6 weeks when he has the chance to get in front of a new coach, clean slate and spend a couple of weeks showing what he has.


The more I think about it, the more I think attitude/ambition/drive is probably the issue. Is lazy a term ever been associated with him or is that reaching. Someone mentioned ego before....

Herbert picks Clapham in his All White squads. Not exactly a great argument, but it's a start. Herbert also said he wouldn't sign Clapham because he wouldn't improve on the midfield that we had at the time. That's not the same as saying Clapham isn't good enough. So there goes your argument that Herbert doesn't rate Clapham on two fronts. All you can really say is that Herbert didn't consider Clapham an improvement on the midfielders he had at that time.


Nothing like a bit of pure speculation to make an argument either! How do you know that Emblen or Ramon didn't want him in Auckland? Maybe Clapham has a family to think about and a life in Christchurch? See I can speculate too! Also, why should a player have to play for one of the top two clubs to get a chance with the Phoenix? A player should be selected on their relative merits and not based on the team which they represent.


You're also going to vilify him for going to Australia for 6 weeks? You were one of the people criticising Clapham for not doing enough and that he should go over to Australia to prove himself etc etc. You can't say that he should go over and then criticize him for doing just that.


Good to see your not afraid to continue speculating with your last statement - "I think attitude/ambition/drive is the probably the issue". Where's your evidence other than what someone else has heard from someone else? I could just as easily say that going to Australia for 6 weeks and cutting short your holiday to play for NZ A in a meaningless friendly game shows that he does have the ambition and drive. Once again not a strong argument, but at least it's stronger than yours.


I'm gonna help you out a little here because I think you do struggle with somethings, of which one is reading. I have highlighted the relevant part above and made it clear to you. I'll even reprint it here "Let play devils advocate" That generally means you are taking licence to extend things into a realm which may not be true or taking a position you may not necessarily believe in, in order to create discussion in order to prove if the original theory is correct so to address these as my opinions, is not the case. It was merely to see if there was another side to all of this.

The reality is, I have no idea if Emblen or Ramon got in touch with him hence the position of devils advocate BUT I do know he was not playing for those sides. Those points can be exclusive but again, playing devils advocate, if he is so terrifical and magnificent, and both those two teams are continuously competing for the US$500k, would you not try to grab pieces that would enhance that possibility? The FACT is, both teams did not for whatever reason. From his point of view, if he wants to be playing pro football so badly, why would he not want to play for one of those teams and put himself into the O League comp and potential CWC visibility and pay day. Your argument about the player playing for what ever team he wants is only as strong as the players he plays with. At 62, I would be a star in a u11 side but that does not necessarily mean I am a good footballer. By the very fact alone, considering Adam Cowans' run at YHM, why is he not with the Phoenix? (and yes, argumentative to prove a point)

As I have noted in other posts I have made, I said words to the effect of if Ricki did not rate him, they why does he get picked for country? As others have noted, while he has been picked for country, Rickis use of him has not been the best so I have never stated that I believe that Ricki does not rate him. I think its horses for courses. The FACT is, neither Ernie or Ricki have picked him in the only professional team in the country where there is no restrictions on playing quotas for locals. Thats quite a loud statement.

Your point about Aaron having a life and family in CHR is a complete red herring. He has stated many a time he wants to play pro football. You don't play pro football AND stay in Christchurch. If he thinks that, then he is deluded. The point re the Australia trip is that he wants the contract but does not want to go trial. Again he could have offered Ernie 3 weeks of his time at no cost on the pay off of a contract if he was proven to be good enough. Its like he is the horse and expects the water to come to him.

Tell us how you know Aaron - brother?

Grumpy old bastard alert

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
james dean wrote:
TopLeft07 wrote:
Whitby boy wrote:
The missing piece of the puzzle for me is that pivotal DM - one of Lia or Manny on the park at one time, with a very specific job to do, is OK but not both of them. We desperately need that link between our back four (they aren't great distributors) and our front half of the park.
Agree. Lia showed us this in the NZ A game when he received the ball from the back (short pass) and he shat himself, gave the ball away and almost conceded. Unless he's in acres of space and likely playing a long ball/switch he looks pretty uncomfortable on the ball most the time. Manny isn't any better with link play, we all know what he's there for and it's not that.


If you were scouting us you'd look at applying pressure in central midfield, forcing us to go long and then making it very difficult for us to get the ball to Hernandez in attacking third.  It's an obvious weak spot

Yeah I can see Hernandez getting pretty frustrated without someone in that hole who can provide for him.

Fuck this stupid game

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
james dean wrote:

If you were scouting us you'd look at applying pressure in central midfield, forcing us to go long and then making it very difficult for us to get the ball to Hernandez in attacking third.  It's an obvious weak spot

Yeah this is true but is also true of a lot of sides in world football. 
The problem is though it requires some of your midfielders to push further forward to shut out the two DMs while the attackers block out passing options to the defenders, this can result in leaving too much space in front of your own back 4 and giving the key weapon (Carlos) potentially even more space.
Which is why teams are often allowed to give deep midfielders time on the ball if its just sideways passing.

However I agree that a lot of sides will look to close out Hernandez and thats the guy I would apply a lot of pressure to. Manny & Lia won't be playing those dangerous through balls so having a man, or even two ready to shut down Carlos as soon as he gets on the ball.


Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

In some respects, if you are CCM, Sydney, Roar, who are you going to want to make the passes - Manny/Lia or Hernandez? If I was the opposition coach, I'd have someone do a man mark role on him and shut him out of the game entirely. The other options, are nowhere near as threatening as Carlos.

Grumpy old bastard alert

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:
RichieRich wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

Here is a position that has not been stated but is pertinent to the conversation.


Let play devils advocate. Let's go along with the fact that he is that good and Ernie and Ricki are silly pricks. If this is the case, why hasn't Emblen or Ramon wanted him in Auckland because surely if he is that good, he'd standout and make those sides better, right? Why has Calcott not said, 'Hey come play for me. You can be a leader to the kids and have access to the Phoenix'. He is gonna get his wedge regardless where he goes I suspect so why go to Australia for 6 weeks when he has the chance to get in front of a new coach, clean slate and spend a couple of weeks showing what he has.


The more I think about it, the more I think attitude/ambition/drive is probably the issue. Is lazy a term ever been associated with him or is that reaching. Someone mentioned ego before....

Herbert picks Clapham in his All White squads. Not exactly a great argument, but it's a start. Herbert also said he wouldn't sign Clapham because he wouldn't improve on the midfield that we had at the time. That's not the same as saying Clapham isn't good enough. So there goes your argument that Herbert doesn't rate Clapham on two fronts. All you can really say is that Herbert didn't consider Clapham an improvement on the midfielders he had at that time.


Nothing like a bit of pure speculation to make an argument either! How do you know that Emblen or Ramon didn't want him in Auckland? Maybe Clapham has a family to think about and a life in Christchurch? See I can speculate too! Also, why should a player have to play for one of the top two clubs to get a chance with the Phoenix? A player should be selected on their relative merits and not based on the team which they represent.


You're also going to vilify him for going to Australia for 6 weeks? You were one of the people criticising Clapham for not doing enough and that he should go over to Australia to prove himself etc etc. You can't say that he should go over and then criticize him for doing just that.


Good to see your not afraid to continue speculating with your last statement - "I think attitude/ambition/drive is the probably the issue". Where's your evidence other than what someone else has heard from someone else? I could just as easily say that going to Australia for 6 weeks and cutting short your holiday to play for NZ A in a meaningless friendly game shows that he does have the ambition and drive. Once again not a strong argument, but at least it's stronger than yours.


I'm gonna help you out a little here because I think you do struggle with somethings, of which one is reading. I have highlighted the relevant part above and made it clear to you. I'll even reprint it here "Let play devils advocate" That generally means you are taking licence to extend things into a realm which may not be true or taking a position you may not necessarily believe in, in order to create discussion in order to prove if the original theory is correct so to address these as my opinions, is not the case. It was merely to see if there was another side to all of this.

The reality is, I have no idea if Emblen or Ramon got in touch with him hence the position of devils advocate BUT I do know he was not playing for those sides. Those points can be exclusive but again, playing devils advocate, if he is so terrifical and magnificent, and both those two teams are continuously competing for the US$500k, would you not try to grab pieces that would enhance that possibility? The FACT is, both teams did not for whatever reason. From his point of view, if he wants to be playing pro football so badly, why would he not want to play for one of those teams and put himself into the O League comp and potential CWC visibility and pay day. Your argument about the player playing for what ever team he wants is only as strong as the players he plays with. At 62, I would be a star in a u11 side but that does not necessarily mean I am a good footballer. By the very fact alone, considering Adam Cowans' run at YHM, why is he not with the Phoenix? (and yes, argumentative to prove a point)

As I have noted in other posts I have made, I said words to the effect of if Ricki did not rate him, they why does he get picked for country? As others have noted, while he has been picked for country, Rickis use of him has not been the best so I have never stated that I believe that Ricki does not rate him. I think its horses for courses. The FACT is, neither Ernie or Ricki have picked him in the only professional team in the country where there is no restrictions on playing quotas for locals. Thats quite a loud statement.

Your point about Aaron having a life and family in CHR is a complete red herring. He has stated many a time he wants to play pro football. You don't play pro football AND stay in Christchurch. If he thinks that, then he is deluded. The point re the Australia trip is that he wants the contract but does not want to go trial. Again he could have offered Ernie 3 weeks of his time at no cost on the pay off of a contract if he was proven to be good enough. Its like he is the horse and expects the water to come to him.

Tell us how you know Aaron - brother?

Your devils advocate stuff is a lot of bullshit JV. You put up rubbish and then try to prove a point with it
Good calls by Ritchie I think


Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
hepatitis wrote:

Your devils advocate stuff is a lot of bullshit JV. You put up rubbish and then try to prove a point with it
Good calls by Ritchie I think

I agree I was trying to prove a point. The truth on the matter is, regardless what we think, two coaches of the Phoenix have independently not signed him for whatever reason. The speculation fills the void and I decided to try a different point of view because I frequently get accused of having a myopic POV.. Again, it got 'some' debate which was primarily what I was after because its going a little bit around in circles of 'he's good enough - no he is not' "Oh we are having this debate again". I was hoping for someone to give facts as to why it was wrong so we could narrow it down a bit more but instead I got it framed as having been my own opinion. Hence why I did start with 'lets play devils advocate'


I have seen Clapham on days when he has looked fantastic. I have seen him on days when he looks like he is his own worst enemy. Would I pick him up as a squad player? Hmmmm I think I probably would but I would want him to trial first and see how he goes in the squad training environment - does he hold his own or get bossed. I'm not the coach, its not my team, my job or my ass on the line and I am nowhere near as qualified as Ricki or Ernie. Again, I still come back to the simple point that if he really is as good as his supporters say he is (and he is one of the better players in the ASBP for sure) then why has he not kicked on? There has to be a reason for that. It would be nice to find out what that is and kill off this endless debate that arises every other month.

Grumpy old bastard alert

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:
hepatitis wrote:

Your devils advocate stuff is a lot of bullshit JV. You put up rubbish and then try to prove a point with it
Good calls by Ritchie I think

I agree I was trying to prove a point. The truth on the matter is, regardless what we think, two coaches of the Phoenix have independently not signed him for whatever reason. The speculation fills the void and I decided to try a different point of view because I frequently get accused of having a myopic POV.. Again, it got 'some' debate which was primarily what I was after because its going a little bit around in circles of 'he's good enough - no he is not' "Oh we are having this debate again". I was hoping for someone to give facts as to why it was wrong so we could narrow it down a bit more but instead I got it framed as having been my own opinion. Hence why I did start with 'lets play devils advocate'


I have seen Clapham on days when he has looked fantastic. I have seen him on days when he looks like he is his own worst enemy. Would I pick him up as a squad player? Hmmmm I think I probably would but I would want him to trial first and see how he goes in the squad training environment - does he hold his own or get bossed. I'm not the coach, its not my team, my job or my ass on the line and I am nowhere near as qualified as Ricki or Ernie. Again, I still come back to the simple point that if he really is as good as his supporters say he is (and he is one of the better players in the ASBP for sure) then why has he not kicked on? There has to be a reason for that. It would be nice to find out what that is and kill off this endless debate that arises every other month.


I agree with that. It is more circular than a pie dish. Let the season begin !

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
hepatitis wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:
hepatitis wrote:

Your devils advocate stuff is a lot of bullshit JV. You put up rubbish and then try to prove a point with it
Good calls by Ritchie I think

I agree I was trying to prove a point. The truth on the matter is, regardless what we think, two coaches of the Phoenix have independently not signed him for whatever reason. The speculation fills the void and I decided to try a different point of view because I frequently get accused of having a myopic POV.. Again, it got 'some' debate which was primarily what I was after because its going a little bit around in circles of 'he's good enough - no he is not' "Oh we are having this debate again". I was hoping for someone to give facts as to why it was wrong so we could narrow it down a bit more but instead I got it framed as having been my own opinion. Hence why I did start with 'lets play devils advocate'


I have seen Clapham on days when he has looked fantastic. I have seen him on days when he looks like he is his own worst enemy. Would I pick him up as a squad player? Hmmmm I think I probably would but I would want him to trial first and see how he goes in the squad training environment - does he hold his own or get bossed. I'm not the coach, its not my team, my job or my ass on the line and I am nowhere near as qualified as Ricki or Ernie. Again, I still come back to the simple point that if he really is as good as his supporters say he is (and he is one of the better players in the ASBP for sure) then why has he not kicked on? There has to be a reason for that. It would be nice to find out what that is and kill off this endless debate that arises every other month.


I agree with that. It is more circular than a pie dish. Let the season begin !

I'm going to pinch that circular reference!

Grumpy old bastard alert

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
Jeff Vader wrote:
RichieRich wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

Here is a position that has not been stated but is pertinent to the conversation.


Let play devils advocate. Let's go along with the fact that he is that good and Ernie and Ricki are silly pricks. If this is the case, why hasn't Emblen or Ramon wanted him in Auckland because surely if he is that good, he'd standout and make those sides better, right? Why has Calcott not said, 'Hey come play for me. You can be a leader to the kids and have access to the Phoenix'. He is gonna get his wedge regardless where he goes I suspect so why go to Australia for 6 weeks when he has the chance to get in front of a new coach, clean slate and spend a couple of weeks showing what he has.


The more I think about it, the more I think attitude/ambition/drive is probably the issue. Is lazy a term ever been associated with him or is that reaching. Someone mentioned ego before....

Herbert picks Clapham in his All White squads. Not exactly a great argument, but it's a start. Herbert also said he wouldn't sign Clapham because he wouldn't improve on the midfield that we had at the time. That's not the same as saying Clapham isn't good enough. So there goes your argument that Herbert doesn't rate Clapham on two fronts. All you can really say is that Herbert didn't consider Clapham an improvement on the midfielders he had at that time.


Nothing like a bit of pure speculation to make an argument either! How do you know that Emblen or Ramon didn't want him in Auckland? Maybe Clapham has a family to think about and a life in Christchurch? See I can speculate too! Also, why should a player have to play for one of the top two clubs to get a chance with the Phoenix? A player should be selected on their relative merits and not based on the team which they represent.


You're also going to vilify him for going to Australia for 6 weeks? You were one of the people criticising Clapham for not doing enough and that he should go over to Australia to prove himself etc etc. You can't say that he should go over and then criticize him for doing just that.


Good to see your not afraid to continue speculating with your last statement - "I think attitude/ambition/drive is the probably the issue". Where's your evidence other than what someone else has heard from someone else? I could just as easily say that going to Australia for 6 weeks and cutting short your holiday to play for NZ A in a meaningless friendly game shows that he does have the ambition and drive. Once again not a strong argument, but at least it's stronger than yours.


I'm gonna help you out a little here because I think you do struggle with somethings, of which one is reading. I have highlighted the relevant part above and made it clear to you. I'll even reprint it here "Let play devils advocate" That generally means you are taking licence to extend things into a realm which may not be true or taking a position you may not necessarily believe in, in order to create discussion in order to prove if the original theory is correct so to address these as my opinions, is not the case. It was merely to see if there was another side to all of this.

The reality is, I have no idea if Emblen or Ramon got in touch with him hence the position of devils advocate BUT I do know he was not playing for those sides. Those points can be exclusive but again, playing devils advocate, if he is so terrifical and magnificent, and both those two teams are continuously competing for the US$500k, would you not try to grab pieces that would enhance that possibility? The FACT is, both teams did not for whatever reason. From his point of view, if he wants to be playing pro football so badly, why would he not want to play for one of those teams and put himself into the O League comp and potential CWC visibility and pay day. Your argument about the player playing for what ever team he wants is only as strong as the players he plays with. At 62, I would be a star in a u11 side but that does not necessarily mean I am a good footballer. By the very fact alone, considering Adam Cowans' run at YHM, why is he not with the Phoenix? (and yes, argumentative to prove a point)

As I have noted in other posts I have made, I said words to the effect of if Ricki did not rate him, they why does he get picked for country? As others have noted, while he has been picked for country, Rickis use of him has not been the best so I have never stated that I believe that Ricki does not rate him. I think its horses for courses. The FACT is, neither Ernie or Ricki have picked him in the only professional team in the country where there is no restrictions on playing quotas for locals. Thats quite a loud statement.

Your point about Aaron having a life and family in CHR is a complete red herring. He has stated many a time he wants to play pro football. You don't play pro football AND stay in Christchurch. If he thinks that, then he is deluded. The point re the Australia trip is that he wants the contract but does not want to go trial. Again he could have offered Ernie 3 weeks of his time at no cost on the pay off of a contract if he was proven to be good enough. Its like he is the horse and expects the water to come to him.

Tell us how you know Aaron - brother?


Wow. JV is 62.
Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:
hepatitis wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:
hepatitis wrote:

Your devils advocate stuff is a lot of bullshit JV. You put up rubbish and then try to prove a point with it
Good calls by Ritchie I think

I agree I was trying to prove a point. The truth on the matter is, regardless what we think, two coaches of the Phoenix have independently not signed him for whatever reason. The speculation fills the void and I decided to try a different point of view because I frequently get accused of having a myopic POV.. Again, it got 'some' debate which was primarily what I was after because its going a little bit around in circles of 'he's good enough - no he is not' "Oh we are having this debate again". I was hoping for someone to give facts as to why it was wrong so we could narrow it down a bit more but instead I got it framed as having been my own opinion. Hence why I did start with 'lets play devils advocate'


I have seen Clapham on days when he has looked fantastic. I have seen him on days when he looks like he is his own worst enemy. Would I pick him up as a squad player? Hmmmm I think I probably would but I would want him to trial first and see how he goes in the squad training environment - does he hold his own or get bossed. I'm not the coach, its not my team, my job or my ass on the line and I am nowhere near as qualified as Ricki or Ernie. Again, I still come back to the simple point that if he really is as good as his supporters say he is (and he is one of the better players in the ASBP for sure) then why has he not kicked on? There has to be a reason for that. It would be nice to find out what that is and kill off this endless debate that arises every other month.


I agree with that. It is more circular than a pie dish. Let the season begin !

I'm going to pinch that circular reference!


Why has he not been signed for the Phoenix? I think TV has already give you the answer to that.

"Herbert said he didn't think Clapham was good enough or better than what was there and Ernie is looking at youth to fill those spots. It's not rocket science. Don't overthink it people"

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
Sackofspuds wrote:
Wow. JV is 62.
it's compulsory to grow old. It's not compulsory to grow up!

Grumpy old bastard alert

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago


Ok, we all know that Clapham IS NOT about to get a miracle contract handed to him by Ernie Merick so can we please for fuck sake move this conversation onto actual Transfer Speculation???

 

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

164 pages of transfer speculation... of which half is probably just about Clapham.

Wont get signed, move on.

Gulley, Berstch or Watson, whose it going to be??

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago
MetalLegNZ wrote:

164 pages of transfer speculation... of which half is probably just about Clapham.

Wont get signed, move on.

Gulley, Berstch or Watson, whose it going to be??


All of them I reckon.
Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

Lindsay released to Tee Dubs.

Permalink Permalink
over 12 years ago

Yeah saw that in the stuff article:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/football/9204564/Gulley-set-to-gain-from-Louis-Fentons-break


Then went searching for the new Getty images headshots and there are a couple of interesting finds:
http://www.gettyimages.co.nz/Search/Search.aspx?contractUrl=2&language=en-US&assetType=image&excludenudity=true&p=wellington+phoenix


Joel Stevens pictured with side, which is quite interesting - as well as the other 3 FSE lads. Maybe we will see them all pick up contracts...
And Tamati Williams also there which would lead to me thinking he will be playing against Brisbane.


Permalink Permalink