Wellington Phoenix Men

R26 vs Sydney FC Sunday 6th 7pm

426 replies · 22,209 views
almost 12 years ago

Its all well and good saying Siggy needs more help... but his lunge tackle which gave away the free kick for their second goal was stupid personified.

He was lucky he didn't get a second yellow for the challenge and get sent off.

Siggy's brain explosions are largely his own making.

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almost 12 years ago

I heard a stat last week that Siggy and Dura are #1 and #2 on the list of interceptions this season.

For me this shows the ineffectiveness of our midfield in stopping the play early and reducing the pressure on our defence.  Riera was king at making those interceptions before it reached and defence. I miss Albert.

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almost 12 years ago


I'd also add that some angst is understandable. We're staring down the barrel of a second consecutive wooden spoon and despite some promising signs this season it's completely natural for fans to be frustrated and angry after yet another heavy loss

 

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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almost 12 years ago

With out the owners we wouldn't have a team.

I doubt Ernie would stay if they were all content with mediocrity, he can probably get a job with another A-League team, or back in Asia easily enough. Let's wait and see.

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almost 12 years ago

Reckon the shite on display is an inevitable consequence of the string of injuries and suspensions, I don't think we've had a settled squad for months, still sucks though.

1) Start Boyd, Brockie is only a bench player and he does not work well unless he's running at tired players. Boyd creates more.

2) While I think Stein is good and should be offered another contract, he is slow. If you're trying to break the offside trap with him, it's basically a waste of time since the defender is likely to catch him up. Krishna, on the other hand..

3) Siggy is "passionate" but needs to suck it up and realise that "passion" loses games if you give away stupid fouls in a fit of (justified) rage. Send him on an anger management course or he's out.

4) Riera is not the messiah and he's not going to singlehandedly solve the midfield. Clone him so we have a injury backup.

Our number 1 problem is the area just in front of defence. Lia is swamped and so looks rubbish even though he's doing OK. 


I understand Siggy's rage, though, after the ADP dive he said "every week" and it does seem like the trajectory of many of our games goes like this:

1) We dominate for 20-30 minutes but don't put away chances

2) A dodgy penalty/free kick is awarded and we go 1-0 down

3) We impatiently try to get one back, leaving holes at the back, and suddenly we're 2-0 or 3-0 down

4) Heads drop; game over.

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almost 12 years ago
Sackofspuds wrote:

I heard a stat last week that Siggy and Dura are #1 and #2 on the list of interceptions this season.

For me this shows the ineffectiveness of our midfield in stopping the play early and reducing the pressure on our defence.  Riera was king at making those interceptions before it reached and defence. I miss Albert.

You can spin this completely the other way and say our midfield has put so much pressure on their midfield that it forces them into bad passes (not saying I agree with this)
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almost 12 years ago


4) Riera is not the messiah and he's not going to singlehandedly solve the midfield. Clone him so we have a injury backup.


If you clone him then you'll end up with the same injury.

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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almost 12 years ago · edited almost 12 years ago · History

Reckon the shite on display is an inevitable consequence of the string of injuries and suspensions, I don't think we've had a settled squad for months, still sucks though.

1) Start Boyd, Brockie is only a bench player and he does not work well unless he's running at tired players. Boyd creates more.

2) While I think Stein is good and should be offered another contract, he is slow. If you're trying to break the offside trap with him, it's basically a waste of time since the defender is likely to catch him up. Krishna, on the other hand..

3) Siggy is "passionate" but needs to suck it up and realise that "passion" loses games if you give away stupid fouls in a fit of (justified) rage. Send him on an anger management course or he's out.

4) Riera is not the messiah and he's not going to singlehandedly solve the midfield. Clone him so we have a injury backup.

Our number 1 problem is the area just in front of defence. Lia is swamped and so looks rubbish even though he's doing OK. 


I understand Siggy's rage, though, after the ADP dive he said "every week" and it does seem like the trajectory of many of our games goes like this:

1) We dominate for 20-30 minutes but don't put away chances

2) A dodgy penalty/free kick is awarded and we go 1-0 down

3) We impatiently try to get one back, leaving holes at the back, and suddenly we're 2-0 or 3-0 down

4) Heads drop; game over.

Agree re: Stein. He was terrible last night. Any good chance to break and he was offside (i counted 5 very good chances for a 1-on-1 with their keeper), and any other chance he was just far too slow. Its almost as though he was too eager to catch a break to make up for his lack of pace and just kept catching himself out. He's very hot and cold as well. Did almost nothing last season, started to pick up this season, before fizzing out.

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almost 12 years ago
AJ13 wrote:

Reckon the shite on display is an inevitable consequence of the string of injuries and suspensions, I don't think we've had a settled squad for months, still sucks though.

1) Start Boyd, Brockie is only a bench player and he does not work well unless he's running at tired players. Boyd creates more.

2) While I think Stein is good and should be offered another contract, he is slow. If you're trying to break the offside trap with him, it's basically a waste of time since the defender is likely to catch him up. Krishna, on the other hand..

3) Siggy is "passionate" but needs to suck it up and realise that "passion" loses games if you give away stupid fouls in a fit of (justified) rage. Send him on an anger management course or he's out.

4) Riera is not the messiah and he's not going to singlehandedly solve the midfield. Clone him so we have a injury backup.

Our number 1 problem is the area just in front of defence. Lia is swamped and so looks rubbish even though he's doing OK. 


I understand Siggy's rage, though, after the ADP dive he said "every week" and it does seem like the trajectory of many of our games goes like this:

1) We dominate for 20-30 minutes but don't put away chances

2) A dodgy penalty/free kick is awarded and we go 1-0 down

3) We impatiently try to get one back, leaving holes at the back, and suddenly we're 2-0 or 3-0 down

4) Heads drop; game over.

Agree re: Stein. He was terrible last night. Any good chance to break and he was offside (i counted 5 very good chances for a 1-on-1 with their keeper), and any other chance he was just far too slow. Its almost as though he was too eager to catch a break to make up for his lack of pace and just kept catching himself out. He's very hot and cold as well. Did almost nothing last season, started to pick up this season, before fizzing out.



I really think we should keep him, he holds up, dribbles and passes well and he's our top scorer. He's just slow. It's actually nothing he can do anything about, it's other players who need to stop trying to break the offside trap by passing to him, and other strikers who need to be making runs. Stein is at his best when he gets passes outside the box with people to pass to, and he can handle being passed to with 2-3 people marking him.
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almost 12 years ago

Keep Steyn to play behind a striker (and if he's not keen let him go). 

Let Carlos go. 


Alternately - 


Keep Carlos to play behind a pacy striker (and if he's not keen let him go).

Let Steyn go.


Keeping both (being Visa players) isn't sustainable whilst we have such glaring weaknesses defensively, and some half decent attackers coming through (and no, I am not referring to el Brocko).

E + R + O

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almost 12 years ago

Out of the other atackers only Cunningham has proven to be able to score goals.

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almost 12 years ago
Ryan wrote:

Out of the other atackers only Cunningham has proven to be able to score goals.

Waffles has been in the lead of or around the top of the golden boot race most of the year. Brockie did so last year. Weird statement. 

Allegedly

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almost 12 years ago

If Stein had been quicker to his feet when we had that ping pong in their box in the first half he would have got a tap in when Brockie's shot stopped in the mud.

Instead he was sitting on his bum.

Anyone who's ever played at Happy Valley knows to be alert to such possibilities.


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almost 12 years ago · edited almost 12 years ago · History
Tegal wrote:
Ryan wrote:

Out of the other atackers only Cunningham has proven to be able to score goals.

Waffles has been in the lead of or around the top of the golden boot race most of the year. Brockie did so last year. Weird statement. 



Was replying to SurgeQLD where he was talking about dropping Stein and / or Carlos and relying on the attackers coming through - and I was saying that out of the new recruits only Kenny has proven to be a success in the Goal Scoring department. I wouldn't rely on Krishna or Boyd to get ten + goals. They may have a break out season but you can't rely on it.

I should have used the quote button.
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almost 12 years ago
terminator_x wrote:

If Stein had been quicker to his feet when we had that ping pong in their box in the first half he would have got a tap in when Brockie's shot stopped in the mud.

Instead he was sitting on his bum.

Anyone who's ever played at Happy Valley knows to be alert to such possibilities.




That's exactly my thought, he just sat there and watched.. for 3-4 seconds at least
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almost 12 years ago

My point was simply (I thought) that I don't think we should keep both Waffles and Carlos as they can't play together with their limited pace - giiven how we are apparently trying to play.

And nor was I implying we don't get another striker - merely that we have some younger ones (and Brocks), dump either of the above and replace with a "proper" striker. Y'know, that scores goals - reasonably consistently... like that Kiwi/Aussie/German bloke we had a while back... whatsisname? (lols) and play either Waffles or 'los behind him.

And no, that is not Kosta either (to clarify again - before someone else jumps... I am not saying we don't get him if available, simply that he's not an out and out striker).

E + R + O

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almost 12 years ago

I missed this game and just seen the highlights. Really liked Lia's diving header attempt before Dura and Siggy put the boot in. I reckon if he had scored that, it would be the best diving header in HAL history.

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almost 12 years ago
SurgeQld wrote:

My point was simply (I thought) that I don't think we should keep both Waffles and Carlos as they can't play together with their limited pace - giiven how we are apparently trying to play.

And nor was I implying we don't get another striker - merely that we have some younger ones (and Brocks), dump either of the above and replace with a "proper" striker. Y'know, that scores goals - reasonably consistently... like that Kiwi/Aussie/German bloke we had a while back... whatsisname? (lols) and play either Waffles or 'los behind him.

And no, that is not Kosta either (to clarify again - before someone else jumps... I am not saying we don't get him if available, simply that he's not an out and out striker).



Although the benefit of Stein is that he has proven he can play anywhere in the front half of the park successfully. But I completely agree with you that you know that we are going to fluff more opportunities than we are going to get it. To win games at the moment we have to make more opportunities than the opponents do as most teams are more clinical.
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almost 12 years ago

Thought Stein unusally slow last night.. 

There was one point where I really noticed.. 

"Who ate all the pies"

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almost 12 years ago
SurgeQld wrote:

Keep Steyn to play behind a striker (and if he's not keen let him go). 

Let Carlos go. 


Alternately - 


Keep Carlos to play behind a pacy striker (and if he's not keen let him go).

Let Steyn go.


Keeping both (being Visa players) isn't sustainable whilst we have such glaring weaknesses defensively, and some half decent attackers coming through (and no, I am not referring to el Brocko).


We've got Carlos for another year so if we go with your suggestions it has to be Stein to go, which it sounds like what will be happening.



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almost 12 years ago
terminator_x wrote:

If Stein had been quicker to his feet when we had that ping pong in their box in the first half he would have got a tap in when Brockie's shot stopped in the mud.

Instead he was sitting on his bum.

Anyone who's ever played at Happy Valley knows to be alert to such possibilities.




That's exactly my thought, he just sat there and watched.. for 3-4 seconds at least

This really pissed me off how he didn't get up, then complained when the GK pounced on it right in front of him. Alert players get tap ins.
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almost 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:

I think there is a lot of emotional angsting after this loss which is really knee jerk.

 

Our defence was not an issue until we got tonked by the Heart. We bounced back and did CCM but then got the same from Adelaide. We had kept it very tight at the back and that was in part because the guys in front of them did their job and stopped play getting there. It is obvious that Lia is not a DM stop gap which is not his fault - he is just not that type of player.

 

Sigmund and Durante are aging and are not the quickest but if they had the midfield in front of them that did their job, then all of those things are a lot less of an issue because they get protection from guys who are doing their job. At the moment, opposition stare solely at our CBs because that's what they can see. There is no defensive line between them and the CBs. Break that line with some slick inter play (or allow players to hit shots in from outside the box) then yeah, Sigmund and Durante are going to look past it.

I'm not a Sigmund fan but I don't think its fair to go 'well you are past it' when the help he is meant to be getting from the guys in the DM position in front of him, he is not getting. Its effectively a black hole position for us on the field cause the guy that is in there, is not his natural game and I think it is a little unfair to smash Lia for that when its not his game. He has been asked to play there and he has gone 'ok boss'. If Leo was asked to play there, he would go 'ok boss'. Both would be effective as each other in that role.

 

This points back to recruitment. As JD reminded me, we lucked into Riera and prior to that, we were content with Manny and Lia. Ernie needs a DM recruit this winter pure and simple and these defensive woes go away.


I've had a long think about this and I think we have a big problem with our tactical set-up in the second half of the season - and it came from watching Neil Lennon (Celtic manager) talking about playing with a 4-4-2 diamond on match of the day last night which is basically what we're playing.

He identified the major weakness of playing with a diamond with your fullbacks playing high as being susceptibility on the counter.  If you look at the last few weeks we've been cut to ribbons and our central defenders have been left one on one and two on two time and time again.  Neither are that comfortable defending one on one and it's showing.

He said it can work if you have someone super mobile in the def midfield role to cover when it breaks down, but that's just not what Vince Lia is.  He's too slow and is just simply unable to disrupt attacks.  Self-evidently Riera was better at that job, but I don't think it's sensible to try the formation with the personnel we have available.  We just aren't able to put any pressure on in midfield and we really look like conceding in every match.

Couple that with a complete lack of pressure from our strikers whose work rate seems to have dropped off massively, and this is a bit of a recipe for disaster.  We're not pressing in midfield, we're going man on man at the back and we're playing a fairly high line.  It's incoherent and this is a coaching issue.

Finally, we're getting so little end product from Boxall and Timmins I don't understand the trade off.  If you have 2 great attacking fullbacks, fine, push them on and hope that leads to you scoring more goals.  But neither really effect the game in an attacking sense so I think we need to be a lot more circumspect.

All of this was fine when we we're holding possession better but we've now got the lowest average possession in the league.  We give the ball away constantly after 5 or 6 passes, players are caught up field and we're just not able to get back.  We're far too easy to beat at the moment and I think Ernie has to take his fair share of the blame for the game plan and the tactical set-up.  

Normo's coming home

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almost 12 years ago
Dino11 wrote:

Thought Stein unusally slow last night.. 

There was one point where I really noticed.. 

Agreed. People go on and on about Durante and Sigmund being too slow, but I'm not sure I've seen that in great evidence.

I don't think these two guys are our problem. I think we have been terrible in midfield without Riera - I mean we all thought Lia was good at that point. I have never liked our complete lack of width in the midfield - Cunningham has done a role on the left, but its pretty limited. And Brockie and Steyn have been missing for more than half the games. Steyn has at least looked good when we have played the right game.  Maybe it would not have made much of a difference, but I really don't see why Boyd and Krishna haven't started the last few games.

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almost 12 years ago
james dean wrote:
...

All of this was fine when we we're holding possession better but we've now got the lowest average possession in the league.  ...

I'm interested in that stat, where is that from? We did have over 12% more possession than SFC on the weekend.
From the HAL website I can work out that we are 5th for attempted passes and 7th for completed passes (totals), I am not sure if crosses are considered a pass so I did not include crosses (or unsuccessful dribbles or shots as other forms of possession).
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almost 12 years ago
james dean wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

I think there is a lot of emotional angsting after this loss which is really knee jerk.

 

Our defence was not an issue until we got tonked by the Heart. We bounced back and did CCM but then got the same from Adelaide. We had kept it very tight at the back and that was in part because the guys in front of them did their job and stopped play getting there. It is obvious that Lia is not a DM stop gap which is not his fault - he is just not that type of player.

 

Sigmund and Durante are aging and are not the quickest but if they had the midfield in front of them that did their job, then all of those things are a lot less of an issue because they get protection from guys who are doing their job. At the moment, opposition stare solely at our CBs because that's what they can see. There is no defensive line between them and the CBs. Break that line with some slick inter play (or allow players to hit shots in from outside the box) then yeah, Sigmund and Durante are going to look past it.

I'm not a Sigmund fan but I don't think its fair to go 'well you are past it' when the help he is meant to be getting from the guys in the DM position in front of him, he is not getting. Its effectively a black hole position for us on the field cause the guy that is in there, is not his natural game and I think it is a little unfair to smash Lia for that when its not his game. He has been asked to play there and he has gone 'ok boss'. If Leo was asked to play there, he would go 'ok boss'. Both would be effective as each other in that role.

 

This points back to recruitment. As JD reminded me, we lucked into Riera and prior to that, we were content with Manny and Lia. Ernie needs a DM recruit this winter pure and simple and these defensive woes go away.


I've had a long think about this and I think we have a big problem with our tactical set-up in the second half of the season - and it came from watching Neil Lennon (Celtic manager) talking about playing with a 4-4-2 diamond on match of the day last night which is basically what we're playing.


He identified the major weakness of playing with a diamond with your fullbacks playing high as being susceptibility on the counter.  If you look at the last few weeks we've been cut to ribbons and our central defenders have been left one on one and two on two time and time again.  Neither are that comfortable defending one on one and it's showing.


He said it can work if you have someone super mobile in the def midfield role to cover when it breaks down, but that's just not what Vince Lia is.  He's too slow and is just simply unable to disrupt attacks.  Self-evidently Riera was better at that job, but I don't think it's sensible to try the formation with the personnel we have available.  We just aren't able to put any pressure on in midfield and we really look like conceding in every match.


Couple that with a complete lack of pressure from our strikers whose work rate seems to have dropped off massively, and this is a bit of a recipe for disaster.  We're not pressing in midfield, we're going man on man at the back and we're playing a fairly high line.  It's incoherent and this is a coaching issue.


Finally, we're getting so little end product from Boxall and Timmins I don't understand the trade off.  If you have 2 great attacking fullbacks, fine, push them on and hope that leads to you scoring more goals.  But neither really effect the game in an attacking sense so I think we need to be a lot more circumspect.


All of this was fine when we we're holding possession better but we've now got the lowest average possession in the league.  We give the ball away constantly after 5 or 6 passes, players are caught up field and we're just not able to get back.  We're far too easy to beat at the moment and I think Ernie has to take his fair share of the blame for the game plan and the tactical set-up.  

I think that's a pretty good analysis of the problem, but trouble is, if you think what other options he's had, he's had very little ammunition to play with.  In short, with the squad we've got and the injuries we've had, I think he's been pretty stuffed for options? If you play a 442 with the likes of Carlos you are really playing a 4-1-3-2 and the "1" becomes rather important when the players higher up being one of Stein/Carlos and then two of Kenny/Lia/Hicks or Ridenton.  
I think he's tried 4-2-3-1, and tried to control the midfield with the extra numbers, but if you put anyone alongside Lia, like Ridenton, then Lia drifts forward or sometimes both of them.  And as others have said, it's almost always been kids or relatively less experienced players he's had available to play around Lia when he has tried that.  Plus we've not really had the quality in the wider diamond players to use them other than the way he has.
Nice analysis, but basically we were farked once we lost Fenton and Riera.  All our flexibility went out the window.  I think.
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almost 12 years ago

Aside from our million other injuries, I agree that it was after the season ending injury to Riera  that "All our flexibility went out the window".  In a line ups packed with young, green players, and players out of position, it was the older experienced players who couldn't fill roles required of them, in either 4-1-3- 2, or 4-2-3-1. roles where they had previously played...




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