Wellington Phoenix Men

Ryan Nelsen sticks the boot into the Phoenix

160 replies · 5,008 views
over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Feverish wrote:
The squad needs to be balanced so that it gives NZ players a look in, but also ensures that we get the results that the public expect. Every team needs results otherwise the fan base will not grow. I think they have done a good job. You could bring in someone like Peverley, but at the end of the day Hearfield is prob better. Brockie has only picked up his game recently. Not sure what the Nix could have done about Sigmund - as they werent in existence seven years ago.
 
Maybe Stu might bethe next AW coach if he proves himself at the Olys?


yeah exactly - rock and a hard place, I'd rather have Hearfield than Peverly too, the nix finished last last season, so they desperately want to do better this season.

I think it's a bit weird Nelsen is slamming the nix when he plays for an English club and has had minimal involvment with the all whites
I like tautologies because I like them.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I suspect this thread falls into the "look but dont dare touch" box for Tony P
 
Interesting to see whether the Phoenix do respond to Nelsen's comments somewhjere in the media. There'll probably be some journos chasing them for comment. Mr Mtichell will earn his keep this weekend. There are (and we shouldnt be surprised) some pretty sensible comments on here he might borrow methinks.
 
Surely the Phoenix hour will give this a nudge 
Marius Lacatus2008-08-09 12:48:55
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Undoubtedly... heard Elrick on Golightly's spiel earlier giving it to Nelsen (and Jacobs)... clearly some issues there it seems!
E + R + O

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I suspect this thread falls into the "look but dont dare touch" box for Tony P
 
Interesting to see whether the Phoenix do respond to Nelsen's comments somewhjere in the media. There'll probably be some journos chasing them for comment. Mr Mtichell will earn his keep this weekend. There are (and we shouldnt be surprised) some pretty sensible comments on here he might borrow methinks.
 
Surely the Phoenix hour will give this a nudge 
 
Tony P will be on the Phoenix hour after 1pm on Newstalk ZB Wellington to discuss.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
jamesnz wrote:
 
.....Nelsen's comments about Ricki and NZ football probably show that the reason he hasn't been playing for the All Whites in the World Cup qualifiers is that he and Ricki have a crap relationship and that he probably doesn't even want to play for the side.
 
.....
 
 
 
making a few leaps here, perhaps?
 
on another matter - in terms of developing the game in NZ offering Lochy the chance to trail with an EPL club , must surely increase the motivation for many young NZ footballers
 
 in that it offers them a sense of a career path into world football via the Phoenix (or is Ryan about to say that having NZers in the EPLs a bad thing??)
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
snore. Since your all too nice...the general idea is ok...but there are flaws in his comments that just make him seem very misinformed
 
Nelsen said both organisations needed to pick up their game as Ricki Herbert's dual role as Phoenix and All Whites coaches should benefit, not harm, the national team.[/quote]
 
How is it harming the national team exactly? (the oly-whites is NOT the national team). Surely the fact that Riki actvely seeked and gave Lochy a trial at boro shows that he doesnt just have the nix best interests at heart but more the national side (many of you on this forum said this and gave him sh*t for it even)
 

He had been stunned to hear that the club, coached by the national coach, would not allow two players - Tony Lochhead and Shane Smeltz - to be considered as over-age players at the Olympics.

"In the end, they weren't needed, but there's a principle here. We have the Phoenix, coached by the national coach, not prepared to release players for the Olympic Games, yet Tony Lochhead has gone off for a trial at Middlesbrough. [/quote]

Flawed and contradicting. Smeltz wasnt released because it was already known that killen was going to the games,so smeltz would not be needed,so he ws much better of staying here and making sure the phoenix get into the top 4 and raise the profile of the sport in this country. As for Lochy...I suspect he wasnt released BECAUSE of the trial,as Riki would have known when the possible date of it was (since he planned it in advance) and it definetly would have clashed with the olympics...Id argue that surely a trial at a premiership club is much more important for NZF than releasing him for the oly-whites.
 Nelsen is a bit of a hypocrite if he doesnt believe this...due to the many times he has snubbed the all whites to stay at blackburn,and if at the very start of his career at Blackburn trying to make a name of himself,he was in the same situation,he would stay.
 
"There would have been a huge furore if that had happened overseas. If I was head of New Zealand Soccer, I would have had massive reservations about my head coach of the national team not releasing [his club] players to go play at a tournament like the Olympics." [/quote]
 
Im pretty damn sure 99% of countries overseas dont care about the olympics football tournament
 
[quote] Nelsen said the draw with China proved there was tremendous talent in the Oly-Whites' ranks and he failed to see why midfielder Cole Peverley and goalscorer Jeremy Brockie could not get Phoenix contracts. Only late draftee Greg Draper is on the club's books.
 
This is possibly a fair point,but is more of a difference in opinion of selection. Riki didnt select the oly-whites remember,i think he rates costa and draper as 'should be in the oly-whites' (as did many of you). The fact we still have kiwi under age players (we could well have aussie kids,who are possibly better) shows we are trying to develop them.
 
As for Brockie,we all now know about how hes going. Riki is monitoring him or sure,but as i think HN said...he very recently did sh*t at sydney,so is plying his trade in the NZFC to get a bit of confidence,and i bet we will see him with a contract next season perhaps. Either way,it has to be earned...He will not be selected just because Nelsen wants him to be
 
[quote]

The Blackburn Rovers skipper said he was speaking out because he had been appalled to hear how some young Oly-Whites players had been told that the professional club was "not responsible for New Zealand football's development".

"That just staggers me.

Staggers me as well.......I really hope this is not true.
 
[quote]

If Nelsen was in charge of the Phoenix he would have four or five players from the national under-20s and the same number from the under-23s in his squad.

Hes having a laugh right? He is forgetting one small thing in the salary cap here. Maximum squad size of 22. If he had his way,10 out of 22 players would be U23,and trust me,we would get killed,and those players confidence knocked. What good would that do?
 
Like i said, general idea is good...but he seems to be a little misinformed? He is right that NZF has been wayward in the past (very much so),but i think the signs are that we are now moving forward,so it is unfair to blame the mistakes of a past administration,on the very new current one (nix and NZF)
 
Well...that was very longwinded reply...possibly my longest ever!

Allegedly

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
He's entitled to his opinion, obviously cares about the future of NZ Football.
 
Some of his comments are misinformed due to a lack of understanding of the A-league scene.
 
Hardly a reason for some to put the boot in.
ozespri2008-08-09 13:12:41
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Daikiwi wrote:
He is absoutely right when he slams the decision not to release players. That was a disgrace, indefensible and a huge black mark on the club.
On the other hand, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Phoenix bend over backwards trying to get a junior team in the A League's subsidiary competition but were thwarted by the FFA. And haven't they been trying to find a way to get a development or feeder side into the NZFC but are thwarted by the clubs.
They can't very well sign all the best young players if they've got nowhere to play them = they  just sit on their arses frustrated like Costa, Draper and Spoonley did last year. THey had to loan
Costa out to an Aussie club to get some game time.
Much of the problems in NZ football are due to being in the dead end Oceania confederation - as the Aussies figured out


I'm really late into this debate, but I have to admit to being kinda happy when Smeltzy set up Hearfield for the first goal, and I guess Lochead is fairly happy to have a trial with 'Boro...

and the performance against China was not a disgraceful one by any means...


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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Tony P will be on the Phoenix hour after 1pm on Newstalk ZB Wellington to discuss.


I think that may be a mistake...


Trust in Tony!

edit: you mean better to just let it die down?
martinb2008-08-09 13:13:56


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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Tony P will be on the Phoenix hour after 1pm on Newstalk ZB Wellington to discuss.


I think that may be a mistake...
 
Explain...
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think it is good Nelsen has some opinion. They will matter a lot more when he wants to try gambling his money in the rugby saturated market that NZ is.


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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tegal wrote:
Flawed and contradicting. Smeltz wasnt released because it was already known that killen was going to the games,so smeltz would not be needed,so he ws much better of staying here and making sure the phoenix get into the top 4 and raise the profile of the sport in this country.
[/QUOTE]

See, that to me is exactly why the club should have released them.  All they got was a negative media cycle that they are still getting an impact from here.  If they weren't going to be called up to the final squad anyway they should have just said yes and relied on that, instead, every knocker from HappyTed to Mark Elrick has had a chance to poke a stick in.  It was a mistake.

[QUOTE=Tegal]I'm pretty damn sure 99% of countries overseas dont care about the olympics football tournament


What other nations think is irrelevant, the coverage of football in todays papers is living proof of where they stand for us, and the Olympic game the other night and Ryan's statements have got more coverage due to the Olympics than any National side has had in years.



How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Whitby boy wrote:
I agree with the conflict of agreement idea though. Ricki should resign from the All Whites and the club should compensate him for loss of earnings. He can't do both jobs. There should be breaks in the A League for international games, but the club (and the club coach) should persue the club's intersts.
 
 
I also think if Ryan had spent time in Wellington recently feeling the passion for the Nix, listening to people talking about football in cafes, seeing kids kicking balls around the park in their Nix gear he would have a better understanding of what the Nix have done for Wellington and football - his points may have then been a bit more measured and informed.


or he could just hop on this forum


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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Great interview with Tony P on Phoenix hour (link not up yet).
 
Good on you Tony for calling a spade a spade - refreshing honesty and forthrightness - agree completely with your views.
 
How Nelson thought his ill informed rant was going to achieve anything useful is beyond me - just a bad look for NZ football.
 
Storm in a tea cup - roll on Aug 17 - be afraid Roar.
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Very Afraid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
HN,
 
I do agree we should have released Smeltz,knowing he wasnt going to make the cut anyway,but thats not what Nelsen was saying. I was more saying he was possibly (hopefully) misinformed as to the reason we didnt release the 2 players
 
I also know it is a big deal in this country (have made several posts in support of us releasing lochy and helping the oly-whites do well,as i think itd help the sport in this country if we do well...). But its just the fact he claimed that if players weren't released in any other country that people would actually care,when in fact we are probably the only country who gives a sh*t,we do have special circumstance when it comes to football thats for sure,need all the positive exposure we can get...and i dont think Nelsens public comments have helped that at all...he has just given the HappyTed types more ammo
 
Edit: Haha exactly AWB (below)
Tegal2008-08-09 13:36:40

Allegedly

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Well if Nelson wants to help NZ football, maybe he should plan/bankroll for a future A-League Application from Christchurch and build and integrate U20 and U23 national players himself and see whether it would work out in the A-league.

He would change his mind very soon I would suspect, thus proving how very ill formed he is about the Phoenix.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
valeo wrote:
tbh I think I actually agree. Queensland have players like Kruse, Zullo, Minniecon, Nichols, Dodd...

Why don't we give a chance to any young kiwi talent? Even Costa and Draper have barely had a sniff.
Yeah they could be better now because they played in the VPL I think in the off season.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I get the feeling he's just venting his own frustrations, he hasn't played a lot for the All whites due to his contract.......I can see why he'd be frustrated but I doubt smeltzy would have made any difference.

Queenslander 3x a year.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
About time someone has the balls to come out and say what he has said! Agree with most of what he said. How can you say if the Phoenix had 5 of the Under 23 players instead of players like Lia, Jeremy Christie, Ferrante etc they would get spanked! No chance these Under 23 players are good enough without being pros if they were in pro set ups they would be even better! How come every time the Phoenix play the NZ Under 20s or 23's although in pre season they cant beat them? I go as far as saying this Olywhite team with Nelsen, Killen and Elliot would go close to beating the All Whites without those 3!

There is so much Tall Poppy syndrome in New Zealand and on this board its laugable at times. We are always so quick to critisise our youth National teams but the fact of the matter is we have some good young players and a couple of great coaches that although time and time again they get written off and no support from anyone with any power in the game in NZ they achieve results.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tony's response on The Phoenix Hour was  clear and persuasive,
 
I'm not sure if there will be any fall-out between Ryan and the AW's as a result of Ryan's decision to express his views (ideally not)  but, regardless, the club has responded clearly, fairly, and professionally to the concerns Ryan had raised
 
it is possible that the tv sports bulletins might raise Ryan's points - if so, i trust they will behave ethically and give the club a right of reply
 
 
 
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Nelsen wants 10 U23 players in the phoenix. There is no way you can say that would be competititve in the A league. I cant believe your claiming the OLy-whites players as being better equipped to be better than Ferrante etc at A league level...Nelsens argument simply just does not grasp the fact we have a maximum squad size,so any young players we develop within the squad would clearly be at the expense of on field performance,so our very young players get watched and developed elsewhere (the NZFC) then bought into the phoenix when they are ready...it is the only way under the current system. What we really need is to be accepted into the youth league,THEN we can succesfully develop players within the phoenix environment,and all of Nelsens gripes will be solved.
 
We also played them in preseason,very early on,was just a friendly hit out,with the team trying different formations etc etc,ytou can hardly use that as a measure...

Allegedly

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Good on Ryan for getting football in the news.

Like many of you, I disagree with some of his comments - while the Nix should be a gateway to better things for young Kiwis like Brockie, Peverley et al, the fact is the Nix first had to establish themselves as a credible team in the league after 8 poor years with the Kingz and Knights. They did this, but still came last, meaning there is still work to do.

Nelsen's comments would carry more weight if the Nix were 5 or 10 years old, and young Nzers were still struggling to get a run. A youth team would go a long way to improving the situation, and we know the club are working on this. Ryan's ideal of 5 U-20 and 5 U-23 players in the squad is definitely something to aim for in the future.

The Phoenix lost some PR points with decision not make overage players available, but Nelsen omits to mention that Costa and Draper were already available, and had played in earlier games and were possibly expected to be Beijing bound at the time the decision on Lochhead and Smeltz was made.
I think it was Fred Woodcock who made a good point that the club could have made them available, not had to give them up when Nelsen, Killen. and Elliott got selected, and come out smelling of roses.
It could also be argued that Nelsen is taking away an opportunity for a young player by being in Beijing himself, although personally I am thrilled to see him back in a white shirt.

I think the comments that the Phoenix are not here to develop NZ football are taken out of context. I'm sure that Ricki, Tony and Terry see the Nix as a piece of the development puzzle, but not the be all and end all. This is FNZ's job.

While I agree with Nelsen that FNZ should be making sure the national underage teams get plenty of football, at the end of the day, the Senior team is the flagship, and needs exposure and experience as well. Perhaps Seatter figured the more times the All Whites played, the more chance we had of seeing Ryan Nelsen in an All White shirt?wolfman2008-08-09 15:04:50


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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
uptheeverton wrote:
About time someone has the balls to come out and say what he has said! Agree with most of what he said. How can you say if the Phoenix had 5 of the Under 23 players instead of players like Lia, Jeremy Christie, Ferrante etc they would get spanked! No chance these Under 23 players are good enough without being pros if they were in pro set ups they would be even better! How come every time the Phoenix play the NZ Under 20s or 23's although in pre season they cant beat them? I go as far as saying this Olywhite team with Nelsen, Killen and Elliot would go close to beating the All Whites without those 3!

There is so much Tall Poppy syndrome in New Zealand and on this board its laugable at times. We are always so quick to critisise our youth National teams but the fact of the matter is we have some good young players and a couple of great coaches that although time and time again they get written off and no support from anyone with any power in the game in NZ they achieve results.
 
I, for one, have never criticised our youth teams and like you i believe they are achieving to a high standard
 
but i am a bit in doubt about the other points you raise
 
Ryan wanted 8-10 young nzers in the squad - and hey that might happen one day,
 
 but in the current context this isn't going to hapen
 
the club had to recruit v quickly last season and cannot tear up existing contracts
 
nor would any club be wise to replace known quantities with unkown quantities (in terms of relationships within the squad and fit with existing playing systems) for 'political' reasons
 
to repeat a point made many times above - this club has to place its obligation to it's fans and sponsors ahead of taking on NZF's role in developing NZ football
 
i won't repeat  the points Tony made on the Phoenix hour, but if you want to hear the clubs completely plausible response you should probably have a listen to the podcast
 
 
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
 Is Wellington Phoenix resposible for the development of NZ football? NO.
They have chosen to take reponsibility and as a young club have done a fantastic job in their short history.
I am convinced that as the seasons roll on the Phoenix will take even more responsibility and employ more young Kiwi's in their club to the point that 90% will be NZ born players.
This does take time MR Nelson.
Is NZF responsible for the development of NZ Football ? YES.
It is clearly the NZF roll to develop football in NZ ,if this means working with the Phoenix or the Rufers of this world so be it.
With the new  NZF administration now in place one would hope that things will improve.
It raises another question is it time for NZF to be aligned with Asia for the better development of football in NZ?
Mr Nelson this one is for you , over 9200 supporters turn up to a mid-week pre-season final.
A club called Wellington Phoenix have a signed up membership of over 3000 people.
The public of NZ have thrown their weight behind this club to the point that a group of guys got together and formed the Yellow Fever where there  now is a supporter base throughout the world.
We all want NZ born players playing for our team, but we also want our team to be successful on and off the pitch.
Unfortunately at this point of time some of our young Kiwi's are not up to speed.
Now would Blackburn do what you are asking the Phoenix to do? No they wouldn't and if they did you would be out of a job as some young English lad would have your job!
Wakeup and smell the roses Mr Nelson.
I still think Ricki is more than capable to coach both club and country, I also think you will find that there are breaks during the A-League for Internationl games this season so the impact on both players and clubs won't be as bad as first thought. 
   
   
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I just have to say that I'm disappointed that Ryan felt that he had to air his views in a way that is, on the whole, very negative.
He doesn't seem to be well informed about what's been going in Wellington over the last 18 months or so, and the tremendous impact that Phoenix has had. I respect his opinion and his right to give it (even though I disagree with most of it), especially considering the respect most NZ football fans have for him and for what he's achieved, but surely he could have gone about this in a different way.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I can't agree with anything Nelson has said.  It's particularly galling from someone who hasn't bothered to represent his country for over four years and only turns out when we get to a tournament.  What's he done to help get us to the World Cup?  What did he do to get us to the Olympics?  Absolutely nothing.  Which is exactly how much he knows about the Phoenix and the A-League. 
 
Would he have been in China of the EPL had started?  Of course he bloody wouldn't and he's missing the last game anyway so he can get back for the start.  It is not the job of new professional clubs run properly as businesses to be responsible for developing the game in their country.  The game here will develop if and when that club is successful not before.  We all know what happens when you fill a team here with eager but not quite good enough Kiwis. 
 
I never agreed that we should release players for the olympics for what is a minor, youth age tournament.  We've already seen the benefit of keeping Smeltz and Lochy at home.  Is it hypocritical to then let him go to M'boro on trial?  Of course not.  He's a professional footballer and you could argue that expecting him to play at the olympics could have prevented him from taking up this opportunity to further his career in the EPL. 
 
Clearly Nelson thinks he is Mr NZ football.  Well he isn't.  He's done well despite NZS there is no denying that.  Will we ever see him back here again "putting something back" into the game in his own country?  I very much doubt it.     
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Jose's Dog wrote:
Clearly Nelson thinks he is Mr NZ football.  Well he isn't.  He's done well despite NZS there is no denying that.  Will we ever see him back here again "putting something back" into the game in his own country?  I very much doubt it.     


New Zealand Football think he is Mr. NZ Football.  He's across every poster or Small Whites product a child gets. 

Last time he was home for a short time to catch his family he spent half his time doing media work, and established significant Charity work, he's always available to talk to the media about NZ Football (look at Football maestros) and other things.

It's a pretty major re-write to claim he does nothing for the game here...


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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The 'Nix have given opportunities to some U23 players. Costa, Draper Spoons and Old were all in the squad last season. Old had plenty of chances and couldn't cut it, Spoons was released because he was behind the two other top NZ keepers and his developement was being hindered.

I would argue that bringing back some of our top pros to form the backbone of our side and create some genuine Kiwi heroes was a far wiser, not to mention more successful approach. The successes of Smeltz, Moss and Lochy (and to a lesser extent of Covs, Christie, Paston and Brown) was fantastic, and has created some household names. The commitment to bringing home top All White players has continued this season, with Bertos, Sigmund and Mulligan all signing on. With a couple exceptions (mostly players who are at too high a level to come back, Nelsen, James, potentially Elliott) these guys represent the best that NZ football has produced. Giving them opportunities gives us a much better chance of success than fielding a squad of largely untested youthful players and mixing them with the overseason pros, and if any further proof was needed, look what happened to the Knights/Kingz when they adopted that formula.

On the topic of Brockie, he was in terrible form at the start of last season and needed a year to prove himself at NZFC level before showing he was worthy to play for the Phoenix. He has only really started to show genuine form in the last month or two and the club has already signed Hearfield and Kwasnik in his position. He could still get a shot (as an out and out striker) for the Phoenix if he keeps up his current form and I wouldn't be surprised if Ricki signs him. There probably isn't room in the squad for Peverly or Hendo but who knows what could happen next season. Players like Johnson and Coveny are unlikely to be in the squad next year due to age while Lia may not recover sufficiently from his injury to get back in and this could open a window for them. In future I think it is important that the 'Nix continue to give NZ youth a shot, and I don't see any reason why that won't happen once we are properly established in the league.

However expecting the 'Nix to have 10 kids in the squad given that we don't have a youth side is outrageous and demonstrates the lack of knowledge that Nelsen has on the subject. The club tried hard to get a youth squad, which surely would have included some young NZ talent, but unfortunately due to costs and the Asia/Oceania federation complications it wasn't to be.

It's a shame he hadn't done a little research before making those comments because they have certainly done NZ football more harm than good, particularly in the eyes of the more non-partisan, one-eyed kiwi types. I still have immense respect for Ryan for coming out and performing at the Olympics and for his achievements in the game, but lets hope he can be a little wiser in the future. We need NZ football to be united, and coming out guns blazing like that is only going to make him more of a divisive influence. I'm sorry Ryan but if you had any idea what was going on back home you would know that the Phoenix are the best thing that has happened to NZ football in a long, long time.

There is a buzz about the game here now and that is probably the reason these young guys are disappointed, they wish that they were involved because they can see there is a clear path for success by playing at home with the 'Nix, and if the recent trial at 'Boro for Lochy doesn't demonstrate that then I don't know what will. If the 'Nix continue to be successful that is a good thing for NZFC and NZ youth because they know that if they do perform and work hard there is a chance they can get a contract, the recent signing of Sigmund is a good example of this.
KTBW2008-08-09 15:58:12
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
My first thought when I read his comments was "shouldn't he be focussed on Beijing and what he's there to do?".
My second was "who the frig does he think he is?!?"
My third was, "Oh, that's right, Ryan Nelsen".
If anyone's got a right to come out with these sorts of comments I guess it's him, it's just a shame he didn't do a bit more research into certain things (like the attempts to get a team into the A League youth league) before he made them.
Nix, Leyton Orient and Alloa Athletic supporting schmuck.

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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What did Tony P say on radio, for those of us who missed it?
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
uptheeverton wrote:
About time someone has the balls to come out and say what he has said! Agree with most of what he said. How can you say if the Phoenix had 5 of the Under 23 players instead of players like Lia, Jeremy Christie, Ferrante etc they would get spanked! No chance these Under 23 players are good enough without being pros if they were in pro set ups they would be even better! How come every time the Phoenix play the NZ Under 20s or 23's although in pre season they cant beat them? I go as far as saying this Olywhite team with Nelsen, Killen and Elliot would go close to beating the All Whites without those 3!

There is so much Tall Poppy syndrome in New Zealand and on this board its laugable at times. We are always so quick to critisise our youth National teams but the fact of the matter is we have some good young players and a couple of great coaches that although time and time again they get written off and no support from anyone with any power in the game in NZ they achieve results.


Well hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....this tall poppy syndrome is now extending to the 'Nix methinks! Last year I believe we did have an under 23 player getting their chance- Steven Old was his name. It was a good experience for him, but at times a complete disaster for the club.

If the 'Nix is successfull and established it is an potential outlet for outstanding New Zealand talent. If it has as much credibility as the Knights, it is not.


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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
martinb wrote:
uptheeverton wrote:
About time someone has the balls to come out and say what he has said! Agree with most of what he said. How can you say if the Phoenix had 5 of the Under 23 players instead of players like Lia, Jeremy Christie, Ferrante etc they would get spanked! No chance these Under 23 players are good enough without being pros if they were in pro set ups they would be even better! How come every time the Phoenix play the NZ Under 20s or 23's although in pre season they cant beat them? I go as far as saying this Olywhite team with Nelsen, Killen and Elliot would go close to beating the All Whites without those 3!

There is so much Tall Poppy syndrome in New Zealand and on this board its laugable at times. We are always so quick to critisise our youth National teams but the fact of the matter is we have some good young players and a couple of great coaches that although time and time again they get written off and no support from anyone with any power in the game in NZ they achieve results.


Well hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....this tall poppy syndrome is now extending to the 'Nix methinks! Last year I believe we did have an under 23 player getting their chance- Steven Old was his name. It was a good experience for him, but at times a complete disaster for the club.

If the 'Nix is successfull and established it is an potential outlet for outstanding New Zealand talent. If it has as much credibility as the Knights, it is not.


yes. oh wait, nail > head, or something. I was was just thinking about Steven Old in this context - wasn't he awesome. no.
Cosimo2008-08-09 16:19:07
I like tautologies because I like them.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think Ryan Nelsen's comments are serious and deserve a response.  My own view is that he is both wrong and right.
 
In regard to his wrong comments, I think the Wellington Phoenix needs to be defended, and I hope that Tony P and Ricki will take the time to make a public rebuttal to these comments, which amount to serious, stinging and unfair allegations against the club. 
 
Nelsen is in my opinion absolutely, totally wrong and misleading to suggest that the Phoenix have a first or primary obligation to develop NZ football, and to do so by employing (more) NZ players.  To accuse the Phoenix of stifling New Zealand football's development and to lay the burden of responsibility for New Zealand football's advancement on the Phoenix is unreasonable and absent of good analysis and thought.
 
The Phoenix is a professional club in the business of sports entertainment.  It competes against other sports which are also in the business of entertainment and, more generally, against other forms of entertainment.  The Phoenix is primarily responsible to various stakeholders, foremost to its shareholder, the fans (which, rightly, it wants to grow), and the A-League.  Unless the club is able to satisfy this set of stakeholders it will be doomed, which consequently, without any doubt, would ultmately be detrimental to NZ football.  (On a broader note, where Nelsen states that the "role of the Australian League ... [is] to develop players for professional careers and to benefit Australian national teams", he is equally wrong, and the counter-argumentation with respect to the Phoenix also applies to Neilson criticism of the A-League.)
 
To be successful (and even to simply survive in the A-League), the Phoenix must, among other things, recruit the best players it possibly can.  The reality is that NZ is well short of the football talent needed to run a club in the A-League with a squad predominantly made up of NZ players.  Terry S, Tony P, and Ricki are intelligent, rational, professional operators.  If there were NZ players 'out there' better than the current Australian or imported players, I'm sure they would have found them.  That said, it should be noted that 11 of the current 21-man Phoenix squad (including Tony Lochhead) are NZ'ers.
 
On what basis is Nelsen "staggered that hardly any of his Oly-Whites teammates have Wellington Phoenix contracts"?  How much of the A-League has he in fact watched?  And, in particular, how knowledgable is he about the talent of the current Phoenix squad relative to his Oly-Whites teammates?  One player he signals out as deserving of a Phoenix contract is Jeremy Brockie.  Well the fact of the matter is that Brockie was previously given a tremendous opportunity of a professional career in the A-League and, for whatever reason(s), was unsuccessful.  If he was good enough for the Phoenix (or some other A-League outfit), I'm sure the scouts would have spotted him by now and signed him to a contract.  (This is not intended as a negative statement about Brockie (or, indeed, any other Oly-Whites player) - I hope in due course, given his young age, he does have the talent and perseverance to achieve as a professional footballer, whether that be with the Phoenix or elsewhere.)
 
Nelsen is also being hypocritical in making his accusations against the Phoenix.  The English Premier League has got to be the worse example of domestic talent being forsaken for foreign players.  Many of the EPL clubs hardly have any English players in their squads.  The debate has raged for many years in England about the detrimental effect of this on the production of English talent and on the success of the national team in international competitions.  Nelsen owes his spot at Blackburn to some English lad who has missed out.  If he is true to his principles, as he promotes them in the media, is he willing to criticise Blackburn and the other EPL clubs for not sufficiently developing English players?  Moreover, is he willing to sacrifice his spot at Blackburn in favour of an equally or better talented English player (and, to be sure, there will be many English players more than capable and happy to take his spot)?  Would he be willing to see Blackburn employ less foreign  players in favour of English-born players with the result that Blackburn could end up languishing in the relegation zone, which could, consequently, cost him a career in the EPL?
 
Additionally, Nelsen is wrong, in my view, about the Phoenix's decision not to release Tony Lochhead and Shane Smeltz for the Olympic Games.  Neither player qualifies on the age criterion.  Furthermore, the Olympic under-23 football tournament is not recognised as being of such stature in the football world as to require a FIFA window for releasing international players.  Many European clubs have refused to release over-age players for the tournament and in some instances have even declined to release their under-23 players, despite FIFA insisting that they must do so.  Really, the only question can be whether the Phoenix were morally obliged to release Lochhead and Smeltz.  My personal feeling is that the Olympics is not big enough (from a football perspective) to warrant the Phoenix risking its own preparation for a very important second season in the A-League by releasing two important over-age players and that, in any case, NZ football would have been better served in terms of its development by sending only under-23 players to the tournament (e.g., it would have been better for NZ football if Greg Draper - a late draftee - and Costa Barbarouses were selected in the original under-23s squad).
 
It is also incorrect for Nelsen to accuse Ricki of having a conflict of interest in relation to his roles as the Phoenix coach and national coach.  Ricki does have a potential conflict, but this is managed by FIFA allowing club competitions to be suspended when sanctioned internationasl (e.g., World Cup qualifying games) are played.  In regard to selection of the national under-23s side, firstly, Ricki is not the coach and, secondly, he is not the sole (or even ultimate) decision maker at the Phoenix when it comes to staffing matters - the shareholder, board and chief executive no doubt have a significant say with respect to Phoenix business, including which players to release for under-23s international duty.  In my eyes, the true stature of Ricki was his decision to promote Tony Lochhead for a possible career in the EPL with Middlesbrough, despite this not being in the best interests of the Phoenix.  It is certainly in the interests of Lochhead, from both a personal and professional development perspective, and, if he is successful, there will be a tremendous spinoff for NZ football.  It certainly proves to me that in supporting Ricki and Tony Lochhead on this matter, the Phoenix are a good employer, and are not entirely self-centred or self-serving. 
 
Where Nelsen is absolutely right is in taking aim at New Zealand Football, although the Phoenix seems to be more in his sights.  Football in this country will never develop or prosper as long as NZF's long-term strategy is to focus on the All Whites at the expense of the grassroots.
 
The focus of a long-term strategy needs to be on the grassroots, that is, on the kids and the coaches who are needed to train them, and on the facilities.  As it is now, by the time the kids eventually make it into the All Whites, its too late because they are simply not good enough and, due to lack of earlier development, unlikely to ever be good enough.  The absence of attention to the grassroots ('bottom-up' approach) is also in my opinion why the standard of football in the NZFC is generally absolutely appalling, as it also was in the national league through out the 1990s.  More often than not it's a bore watching games in the NZFC, and that includes when the current top three teams play each other.  The national league in the 1970s and 1980s (e.g., the days when Ricki was playing in the national league) was far superior and more exciting to watch than the top NZ club competitions that came afterwards.  In my view, this is mainly because the national league teams in the 'old days' consisted of many Brits who settled in NZ and who were half-decent players and coaches (and I say that not as a Brit, but as a born and bred Kiwi).  Today the teams mainly comprise Kiwi lads who are simply not up to it, through no fault of their own.  And by the time these lads get to play in the NZFC, it's generally too late for them to improve much either athletically, technically or in terms of nous about how to play the game - they are simply generally 'too old' for it by the time they hit their late teens and 20s.  It will be the very rare player in my view who is able to progress from the youth squads and the NZFC to the A-League, if NZF does not take serious steps to develop the game.  This is where Australia is much further ahead and superior, with its strong emphasis on youth development, which then feeds good State leagues and translates into professional football careers for many of its players.
 
Nelsen is right that the focus on developing the under-17s, 20s and 23s should take precedence over spending huge amounts of scarce money and other resources on teh All Whites.  It's beyond the All Whites to popularise football in this country.  In any case, football is already the greatest participation sport in NZ at the junior level (and it's certainly not due to the All Whites).  Therefore, NZF (hopefully with the support of SPARC) needs to put in place a very long-term plan to develop football at the grassroots at all levels (juniors, coaches, facilities, etc.).   It means investing in highly qualified coaches and trainers to coach and prepare athletically the kids and youth who will then progress to the Phoenix, other A-League clubs or further afield.  It will take many years for the fruits to appear, but the end result will be far superior to concentrating on a tried and failed 'top-down' approach, unrealistically dreaming that the All Whites can provide us with instant glory and gratification.
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Pacwarior wrote:
What did Tony P say on radio, for those of us who missed it?
 
switch sarcasm radars on.... (as noted he was actually very professional and persuasive)
 
 
In a Wryan witty response  he opened with a quick "Who are Ya?", moved on to ask "what the f**king, what the f**king, what the f**king hell was that?", before concluding with a heartfelt chorus of "3 nil, 3 nil , 3 nil , 3 nil" .
 
which seems a pretty accurate record of the score at this stage
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Very long post by axmfc, but I agree with about 98% of it.el grapadura2008-08-09 16:27:26
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago

Setting aside Nelsen's comments for a moment the underlying issue is the role of the Nix vis a vis the development of NZ football. A subset of that issue is the conflict of interest in the Nix coach also being the All Whites coach.

The first priority for the Nix has to be survival as a professional football franchise. We have got off to an amazing start both on and off the field but it has reputedly cost Terry $5m. Terry has also alluded to the Nix maybe not quite breaking even this season. I recall he has also said he was never in it to make money but the Nix will need to pay its own way after the investment phase i.e. at least breakeven.
 
How does the Nix at least breakeven ? It captures the hearts and minds of Wellingtonians (big tick in that box) and it delivers results on the field (box yet to be ticked). Results on the field will translate into $ revenue - ticket sales, merchandise sales and TV rights and sponsorship revenue.
 
It is in the long term interest of the Nix to develop NZ football talent because the Nix will be the logical first step for talented young NZers wanted a professional football career and, unlike all other A-league clubs, they do not count as imports (how long we can get away with exclusive non import status for NZers will be interesting). This, and I'm sure a genuine desire to develop football in NZ, is behind the plans to establish a youth team.
 
But we have to walk before we run - I think we have to focus single mindedly on securing the future of the Nix by putting the best possible team on the park week after week and getting the results that will ultimately generate the income to secure the club financially which is why I agreed with the decision not to release players for the Olympics and disagreed with the Lochhead decision. It is also why I have a concern over the coaching conflict of interest.
 
I think, in the views expressed on the Nix's responsibility, or otherwise, for developing NZ football, we are already starting to take the Nix for granted - let's just worry about on field performance - the rest will logically follow - in time.
 
Head hurts - time for drink.
He dribbles a lot and the opposition dont like it - you can see it all over their faces. (Ron Atkinson)
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over 17 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
ok, so what did Tony P actually say
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