Was - Phoenix Transfer Speculation

Aaargh. Payne WAS on the radar for the Nix this season, and then the Blackburn gig came up. Would you really want the Nix to prevent young players from getting opportunities with good clubs in Europe?

This is the peril of "groupthink". When people have an idea in their head which seems to solve their problems (in this case, "the Nix are performing under-average because Ricki won't hire Kiwi youth") they stick to it despite all the times it is proved wrong by experience and logic.

It's a magical-thinking idea because every objection you make to it, they change their tune. Eg. "Ricki signed Marco and Kosta" is countered with "'Yeah? But they LEFT". As if - for example, Cory Chettleburgh or Luke Rowe wouldn't jump at an offer from the Tards or Invincible Roarcelona if they were offered one.

...and when the Phoenix signed Tsatallios Rowe was with Birmingham so wasn't available as an option.

Your elbow is ineffectual ...

Luke Rowes contract would have ended at the end of June and I suggest he would have known it wasn`t going to be extended well before that.

Or maybe he just isn't that good.

remember that ricki did mention luke rowe earlier in preseason, at the time he hadnt been officially released, but perhaps his return to wellington is under the suggestion of Ricki?

Was he good enough to start/make regular appearances off the bench for the Phoenix as a 16y/old in a professional competition? If not, is he better off on the bench, not playing for the Phoenix, or playing regular football elsewhere?

Until we have a youth side, this really is a debatable point.

I'm sorry Normo but that's rubbish. The Phoenix should ring every kiwi around the world and just see if they are bored with the deal they have?

If I was at the Phoenix I'd not for a second think of ringing a kid on the books of a Championship side to see if he fancied packing in his UK gig.

Sounds like you are talking about Real Madrid not the Nix. There are 10-14 preseason games each year. Sure that is enough time so even my grandma would be able so whether the kid is talent or not. How many times big clubs take a gamble with young players who potentially could become football stars?
If you let them play in ASB until 23-24, you can also say they are to old to start playing pro football (Clapham?).

P.S. Naymar is only 19 and physically not strong enough, do you think RM should wait for him another few years?

We must be talking at cross-purposes here because I don't understand what you are getting at [edit: I'm responding to HN's point].  How else do you get players to sign for you other than by contacting them to see if they are interested?

james dean2011-11-25 23:14:42

We don't know that at all.  For all we know Rowe was contracted until the week he came back here whereas Lindsay might have been told weeks before he had no gig and contacted the Phoenix.

It's not like we employ 20 coaches and 40 scouts is it?

I don't understand how this argument keeps going in circles when one side is clearly wrong. Probably because people like Danny Hay perpetuate it and stir the pot every few weeks I guess.

It isn't a good look if a premiership club offers a contract to a kiwi before the Phoenix whilst you are busy filling the majority of your youth spots with below par ockers

AucklandPhoenix2011-11-25 23:53:38

So this is back to Payne is it? The same Payne the Phoenix clearly stated they wanted to sign if he wasn't signed by Blackburn?

He did play for the Phoenix last season in the ASB Challenge and was a bit part player for Waitakere at 16. This season the Phoenix wanted to sign him but a Premier League club came in first.

What else was the club meant to have done?

You give a 16YO a chance in an Academy set-up and if you like the look you sign him if some bigger club doesn't come in first. A bigger club DID come in first.

Myth.

As for the Rowe thing, his disclosed form is one NZFC game against a side so week the Fever would have given them a compertitive game yet the Phoenix are condemned for not signing him? We have no idea when he became available, we have no idea how he looks and we have no youth or reserves in which to try him out.

Remember the list of ex-Premiership youth who have proven to be well below A-League quality is much longer than those that have proven to be above. Yet we're meant to hold a spot for an unavailable player with no disclosed form?

Based on a huge pile of assumptions the club gets slagged. Good to see the Hay mentality is strong in the NZ game.

How about we just pin some hope that he's better then most fo the Under-20 side, tears up the ASb Prem and next year when there is a chance to sign him we do so.Hard News2011-11-26 00:30:14

I'm just going to make 2 more points and leave this where it is:

Could have made a few pingers out of him too. 

If we are going to waste spots on questionable Aussies, why not use them on questionable kiwis?

AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH

But we have established Payne was playing for the amateur 'Nix reserves. Perhaps he was looking at US colleges too? which a pro contract would have ruled him out from?

We can't speculate, but I think lad training and playing with the Phoenix, goes to U20(17?) WC and then gets signed with a prmeiership club.

Surely that is win? An example of the 'Nix helping NZ football?

Agreed. I suggested Chad Coombes as a player questioned by most on this forum and no one wanted a bar. I think he'd probably be better than Niko, and possibly better than Downey. Haven't been watching the ASBP recently so not sure what is going on with players there.

This academy can't come quickly enough to get kiwis through.

OMG Chad Coombes? He is not good enough for ACFC and the only reason why he is playing is because one of the board members is very impressed with his 120% effort in every game. In conclusion: Can he run marathon? Yes. Can he play football, NO .

The point is, Payne wasn't the only player playing for the Nix A team, who else was recognised as talent?

Why always European clubs need to invite young NZ talents for trial, to draw attention of the people from the Nix?

HN why such a defensive mode.I thought the discussion is how to assist the Nix improving their recruitment of young NZs or it needs to be a separate topic?

I was kind of sh*t stirring. You ask for questionable kiwis, I give you...

btw isn't he can run, but can't play ball the criticism of Downey? and Downey didn't score a goal at the CWC, and the Herald has never liked him enough to give him a full page interview.

Come on JD, you're just being churlish now. Payne is 17 right now - are you really suggesting that the Phoenix should signing 15/16-year olds to the first team squad in the hope they can develop into a good professional player?

The reality is that without an academy/reserve team set-up, this is simply not feasible for the Phoenix at the moment, and you should be well aware of that.

Ummm!

Why not.The number of kids in youth schemes overseas that make it into the big time is tiny. Why not have a register of kiwis overseas and flic them an occasional email just to see how its going.

IMO this is a nation wide problem that stretches right up to the top of NZ football.  The ultimate example of this is pre world cup when it takes a TV3 reporter to make contact with Winson Reid and facilitate his hooking up with Rickie. It was great TV but you have to admit it was very amateurish.

I guess we are all wanting the same thing but in reality the sooner the Welnix Phoenix youth development program kicks off the better. By the start of next  season more than half the current senior Nix side will be 30 and over. With the foreign player quota going down we will be forced to look locally.

we signed Kosta on 14 May 2007 - 2 months after his 17th birthday

...and at that age Kosta was starting for Team Wellington and had two years NZFC experience. Payne was an occassional bench player for Waitakere.

Also if we signed Payne at that age it would pretty much have been the end of last season, so space and cap room would have made no difference. By the time recruiting for this season got underway the Blackburn thing was on the radar and we were second choice.



The reason I get wound up about it is because people ignore the facts before them to beat the Phoenix and support spurious arguments. It pisses me off.

Hard News2011-11-26 23:58:07

Who cares if he was a waitakere bench player, 12 mths after we could have signed him payne is now judged good enough for blackburn's reserve side. We snoozed and by the time we got round to offering him a contract someone bigger picked him up - i don't understand how you can consider the club blameless in thisjames dean2011-11-27 03:51:24

havent seen anyone counter this point adequately enough, and without doing so the tim payne criticism has absolutely no basis

paulm2011-11-27 05:44:42

Of course, if he'd signed a 16-year old last season who was a bench player at NZFC and couldn't get into a match day squad, you'd be saying why did we waste a squad place on a kid who's not ready, we should have left him to get more experience at lower level and then sign him the following season.

But then again, everyone knew that Blackburn were going to come knocking and pick-up a reserve ASB Prem player for their development squad the following season. I mean, it happens, what, like 10-12 times every season, how could we have not been prepared for it? Especially considering the great off-season we had, where a couple of months before the season no-one knew there would even still be a club around...come on JD, you can't really be serious about this.

So, what do we do? Since every single suggestion gets shot down in flames in this thread. Just wait for some young player to prove himself, then reject a bigger club's offer just for the sake of it and hopefully joins the Phoenix? Our recruitment is not working very well - does anyone have any ideas that even HN couldn't shoot down? Does HN have any ideas?

Or are people arguing our recruitment is working well? Do we just concede that other A-League clubs have advantages over us and give up?

These are genuine questions.

Well, they do. But what do you mean "give up"?

Not recruit the players required to make us a better team than we are at present.

Basically, are there any players that you or HN think the Nix should be targeting? Because if every player is either too crap or too expensive (in inverted commas) we're going to keep middling along, while the other teams keep recruiting players that are either too crap or too expensive (in inverted commas) and keep outplaying us.

I mean, it's a given that Ricki is our only option as coach (in inverted commas), so we obviously need better players, right? Cosimo2011-11-27 15:34:53

Pay for a reserve team by signing a shirt sponsorship deal with Krispy Kreme.

The academy concept needs to have the permission of all the franchises to ignore the fact that they are a professional Australian football club.

Are you going to get Rex and Ivan to agree to that? I'd say suspect and if NZF forced it, it only needs to be leaked to the media about the arrangment.

I don't know the solution but I do know we need that academy side. Again I hark back to the Warriors model and that production line.

JD I see your point of view but if we had signed Payne at the end of last year, and we agree he is good enough for the Blackburn then he would have ended up there anyway without kicking a ball for us. I don't know why thats a point worth crying for because the outcome is the same - he is at Blackburn. There is no shame in that he didn't come through us or could possible have come through us but didn't. The kid is at Blackburn and if the Phoenix are serious about developing NZ talent then objectively, they have to realise that the kids that have talent, if they get a better opportunity (i.e. Blackburn) then they should be there. I get your passion and what your angle is but unless these kids that should have been signed have been in a good system in NZ, how is anyone going to know whom to sign at a young age? I couldn't tell you who has a good scheme but I would suggest Wynton would be one place to start and as we can tell at Waikato, Declan is running his own Barcelona so I (speculate) don't think he would be keen to offer his kids to the Phoenix because there is no glory in it for him. How many other clubs, schemes, programmes have kids that are good enough, coaches that have their ego first or kids that are good enough but no avenue? Who knows.