What's really wrong with the Wellington Phoenix?

Wasn't just at you Reg.  Just a general warning.  My second for the day.  Yay.

#napoleancomplex

I prefer Stalin.  Napolean less dictatory.  Needs more oppression. But thanks for noticing.

Point stands.

Should have mutually terminated half the squad in January.

I love it when News gets Banny!

Ok guys, Stalin, please explain to me if you can.

Why did we take a gamble on a guy with a dodgy track record, and pair him with a guy he didn't get on with who, apparently, had a bit of a reputation of his own for being difficult?

Why did Ernie fail here but has been, and is, successful elsewhere?

If Kalezic and Ernie were funded well, as people like Hard News Stalin seem to be telling us, what caused Ernie to fail here?

Dome's "we don't always get these things right" seems lame at best.

Who's "we". And why isn't he answering the questions above?

Now there is a whole thread moving onto discussing new coach possibilities. Like they might be the messiah. But surely the real rot seems elsewhere.

I've stopped going to games because we just aren't worth watching and there are better things to do. Sitting in a concrete jungle with a beer and a few friends is fine enough, but I can do that elsewhere and enjoy the experience without the Nix fouling up my day. Kudos to those who are "real" fans. But I am the sort of guy the club needs to keep and to add to.  

Have a shot at convincing me the club's got this.  'Cause I'm not seeing it.

At this stage I'm very likely to drop our Foundation memberships. Not because we are shark, but because I don't see anybody giving any rational explanation for what's really wrong at this club or having any real plan to deal with it.

I know that answering those questions isn't anybody here's job or responsibility.  Kudos to all those involved with Yellow Fever.  But give it a shot if you can answer the above, for a disillusioned former fan.  Because the conversation seems to be going all around those questions.

http://yellowfever.co.nz/posts/1230385

I've read the thread.  I've read most of the threads around this sort of stuff for ten years.  

Dome seems to get a free pass.  We have zero idea how the football committee works and why/if they took this apparent Darije gamble.  We have contradictory, apparently somewhat insider comments about the club having sufficient funding but the staff being under resourced and over worked.  There's no discussion on why Ernie couldn't deliver and whether structural club issues had something to do with that.

I'm struggling to see any insights to what's really the issue at the club.  That's fine, but I thought I'd ask those specific questions.

What are you talking about? Dome gets personally scapegoated more than Vinnie Lia ever did.

Mixed on the thread I'd say.  There are comments about the club being a "model" club.  When Dome is criticised there are some of the more "senior" (as I'd interpret that) YF posters, who I presume have some more inside knowledge than most, who appear to defend him. 

I got bollocked on the protest thread for suggesting Dome had let them think it was all Welnix's and Hauwei's fault and wasn't taking any accountability himself, for the late home-away change, and smoothed it all over with some smooth words and a drink.  

With many he does seem to get a free pass.  

I don't get any clear steer on Dome from those I would guess are in a better position to actually have some insights.

Maybe I misread it, but that was what I took from the threads.

No problem.  We managed to sign Darije and Rado and got a mess, we managed to make one of the otherwise more successful A League coaches fail.  I'm not hearing that the club, or those more closely associated with the club have any clear idea why that is. 

We have some people saying we are well funded and some people saying we're not.

And if you aren't identifying the problem you aren't likely to fix it.

Personally I do not think Greenie and Buckingham are better coaches (as a tandem) than Ernie Merrick.  Yet we did not play much worse under their leadership after Ernie left, than under Ernie's leadership (in the "late Ernie period").  This does not mean Des and Green are just as good as Ernie and that they would win the A-League title with Victory or the Jets.  it simply means the opposite: that the Ernie- (or Herbert- in his final season) -coached WPX simply could not compete with other teams successfully. But we did compete, earlier on.

I have no ready answers. But it could be that prudent fiscal management, and paying our players on time, leaves us with a budget that does not leave room for better players - such as other teams can have right now? I may be completely wrong here, because of the capped salaries.  

What is the financial situation of other teams, are they buying better performance on the field with borrowed / fake / money?

the rules do permit significant expenditure outside the salary cap via marquees and other exemption players. some clubs max this out and some just stick to the cap

Some of this is fair but there are so many bad decisions you can point to over the past 2-3 years regarding players, coaching etc I am just not willing to give the club the benefit of the doubt t here. You say they did dd, what dd did they do and why is Liam Hyslop hinting that other previous clubs of DK would not have recommended him? Why was he not appointed mid way through last year when he was available? 

Whose idea was the DK/Rado combination, club, DK or an agent because that was a total fudge up.  If we have a better youth setup than Aussie clubs why doesn't it produce any players? 

If we're not the lowest payers why is our team so shark? A women's team is great but a completely separate issue. Italiano as number 1 can't have been based on his form or ability so what was it? Too say there was clamour from people who hadn't seen him play, surely the Phoenix had seen him play in the ASBP so I really don't get that as an excuse for signing him! 

You say Rossi and Finkler gave up, we'll isn't it the coaches job to get the best out of his players - as far as I know that's literally what they are hired to do... Yes there is loads of uninformed comment regarding the nix but they are making consistently bad decisions regarding the on field and off field staff and need to hire or involve someone to make those decisions better. 

I'd be surprised if any team other than the. Mariners are paying cap minimum.

Rebrandings seem to be the trigger.  Why did we rebrand this season?  It only seems to have brought bad karma to the club.

We did not need it and all it seems to have heralded is a crazy season that even the Knights did not even suffer from.  They were dog sharke but did not have the silly fiascos that we've had.  The only similar situation I've seen was the season that the Kingz signed those Aussie boys who no-showed.

Re back-office culture and staff turnover. I've worked for two places, both of them professional sports organisations. They are different to the Phoenix but my read is that cultures in sports organisations are very similar regardless of size/finances.

If the flagship team is losing, they're hard places to work. Coming to the office on a Monday is grim and people are generally down. You know that a losing team and falling attendances mean that jobs are on the line. It's made worse by the fact that there will be people in the back office who don't feel like they have any influence over what goes on on the pitch and will be hearing about half of the developments through the media. That is a really hard feeling. 

In saying all of that,having a stable and positive back office undoubtedly helps the team succeed on the pitch. It's a vicious cycle.

When the Warriors looked like they had turned themselves into a semi-decent sports organisation in the early 00's a lot of the credit was given to Mick Watson and the front office culture he had built and that allowed success on the pitch. Given what happened subsequently, hard to know if that was true but in 01/02/03 it seemed the case.

Cultures in organisations are top down and are usually driven in a sports context by the flagship team. Constant changes in management of the team will mean that the relationship with the team is constantly changing and thus the office culture is changing. In the last two years, the culture of where I am at the moment has changed completely because the head coach has changed. The whole dynamic of the office is different because the coach is different. If that is being played out in the Phoenix offices it will be incredibly destabilising for the back office team and I can completely understand why they have high turnover.

when's the next game?? Should make them play twice a week next year to drown out off the field issues and one of those should be easy beats. 

Next saturday vs Western Sydney away.

I watched last night the jets vs sydney -best game of the year.

10 man jets bets sydney - Jets fought, never gave up, kept attacking -great game.

Coach same coach phoenix had for 3 and half years.

Different players.

Last phoenix game was the worse ive watched for a long time. it wasnt the losing, but it seemed like they didnt want to fight, that they just gave up. Yes the coach may be an issue for the players, but why do our players not fight to the end, why do they seem to quit.

you can have all the wonderful culture and management and back office/front office you like, but if the players arent prepared to go stuff it, in spite of it all and fight and show guts and determination we will never be a top 4 team. 

Sorry, but whats wrong with the phoenix is the players themselves. 

I defended the team for a while, try to see the positives for the last few seasons. Seems players have their own agenda and to be honest I start to don’t care about their ‘feelings’ or ‘struggle’. We, as fans, are their clients, we pay the bills, and if the Phoenix where my mechanics, builder or restaurant I would never go or hire them a second time. They would get no retweet, no +1, a single star nothing for this season. Most casual fans do exactly this, they think as them as a bunch of loosers. Only us tragic still care and support the bigger idea of the Nix but not the actual shark game we watch. We show up for games, watch them on TV in the hope we see better team than last week. But the fanbase is bleeding out, and no new fans can be aquired with the quality of football they show.

That makes no sense, in the 14-15 season the Pheonix were the best team in the competition for large stretches of it and really should have won the whole thing and even when the wheels fell off they were still a top 4 team. That was under Merrick.

The second half of last season the Phoenix were also a top four team, if Des and Greenacre were in charge from the start of the season and the team had the same form that they did throughout their stint at the top then they would have been top four.

And if we won more games this season we would be top 4 as well. Far to many ifs and what could have beens. Way past time for all the bloody excuses handed down fact is the team seems incapable of showing the same passion some of their fans show.

Really dont see people assumption that if Des and Greenie had been in charge all season we would have been top 4

What rubbish. IF I had got 2 more numbers in lotto last night I would have won a few bucks. 

Too many fans just can't see the wood for the trees.

Oh,  so fact is rubbish? Fact is that under Des and Greenie the team was out scoring the bulk of teams in the competition and came into this season with momentum.

And, at this point in the 14-15 season the Phoenix were sitting in the number one position in the comp and had been for a few weeks.

The team has problems but I don't think the problems that we're seeing this year are the problems that Merrick faced.

So we might have been top for a very short while, but we were never good enough to win it. That is my point.

Maybe, although injuries probably played their part. But that's not the point, I was replying to Cantrun7 who said we'll never be a top four team and I pointed out that just a couple of years ago we were top four and fighting for the toilet seat. And even last year after a change in management the team was outscoring most of the teams. So clearly the team has it in them to be top four.

If you want to understand a point that's being made you should read what the point was replying to rather than blanketly calling something rubbish.

Ryan is right that the Phoenix were a top 4 team in 14/15.

Perhaps i havent put it very well, but whether some of the players are the same now as back then, there does not seem to be the hunger or committment at present. That comes down to each individual player. 

Even the skippers post the other day with the picture back to previous times when the Phoenix may have been less talented but fought harder suggests he views it that way also.

In summary its the players.

Sure, the problem has been recruitment for the last three seasons. But the coaches have a lot of say in recruitment. Ernie made some baffling recruitment decisions.

If I think it is rubbish then that is my opinion.Don't try and give me this PC bull.

The other thing is all those players that are coming off contract and the club is not going to rehire, and who are not visa players, should be replaced with NZers, even if that means going around the handyprem and picking out the best players from there.

Whilst we may be weaker for a while, perhaps, it would more identify as a team of NZers based in Wellington representing professional soccer in an Australian league, and would garner more support/interest from around the country youd think. 

The squad be all NZers plus 5 visa players. That would help reconnect the phoenix to football communities round the country.

Oh little snowflake got offended? Seriously there was nothing pc in my comment.

We had one good season under Ernie, but didn't adapt when they got wise to our tactics.

yeah, the tactics became predictable

i'm going to jump on the des and greenie bandwagon here and say the team that they put together, out of very little, played excellent and very watchable football. statistically, their form was top 3 or 4 material

Ha ha, I thought that claiming that your opinions and feelings are more important than facts was the definition of PC.  Seriously - PC is nothing, it's just a swearword used by conservative people to smear anything they don't like.

chill guys you both know what Leggy was saying- even though we were good and played the best we have for years he thinks we weren't good enough, no excuses, no apologies. 

If you think you got a rough serve there, have a read of the Man United thread and realise you are in the company of Phil Jones, Chris Smalling and much of the Arsenal fan base.