English (and other British lower league) Football Discussion

Manchester United

4644 replies · 870,800 views
17 Apr 03:35 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
2ndBest wrote:
Law 12: Indirect free kicks.�
<FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light><FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light>�

<FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light><FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light>An indirect free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if, in the opinion of the referee, a player:


� plays in a dangerous manner


� impedes the progress of an opponent


� prevents the goalkeeper from releasing the ball from his hands


� commits any other offence, not previously mentioned in Law 12, for which play is stopped to caution or send off a player.

When combined with�this law for cautions, then clearly diving is�against the laws of the game.�

<FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light><FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light><FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light><FONT size=1 face=FrutigerLTCom-Light>

There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour, e.g. if a player:


- attempts to deceive the referee by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)



Oh, sorry, you must have been offended that I replied to the more erudite poster. I didn't see any material difference in your positions, and further cut-and-paste is no substitute for an argument.

I do, of course, look forward to your campaign to "stamp out" conceding goals!
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17 Apr 03:55 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
So let's summarise.  You just state an opinion without any evidence. I use the LOTG as evidence to prove you are wrong.  You ignore evidence.
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17 Apr 04:04 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
2ndBest wrote:
So let's summarise.� You just state an opinion without any evidence. I use the LOTG as evidence to prove you are wrong.� You ignore evidence.


No, my opinion is that the Laws of the Game state that diving is a part of the game, with definite consequences, just like goal scoring. You then call up the exact text describing this. What can I say, other than - I told you so!
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17 Apr 04:19 · edited 09 Sep 05:00

Err diving isn't part of the game because it results in a free kick.  Just like bobsleding someone.  They are against the laws of the game, therefore you are punished.

Goal scoring, thow ins and corners are completely different.  The LOTG don't say you can't do them.  It merely states how to restart play.
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17 Apr 04:33 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
2ndBest wrote:

Err diving isn't part of the game because it�results in a free kick.� Just like bobsleding someone.� They are against the laws of the game, therefore you are punished.


Goal scoring, thow ins and corners are completely different.� The LOTG don't say you can't do them.� It merely states how to restart play.


If you could find the section in which the LOTG state that a player may not dive, you would have quoted it by now. Just as with goal scoring, and the ball leaving the field, the Laws explain how play is restarted after such a thing occurs.

Compare with:

A player must not use equipment or wear anything that is dangerous to himself or another player (including any kind of jewellery)

This isn't exactly rocket science.
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17 Apr 04:45 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
So doing something that gets a freekick and caution is " not against the laws of the game".
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17 Apr 05:00 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
2ndBest wrote:
So doing something that gets a freekick and caution is " not against the laws of the game".


Yes. I'm glad that you learnt something today!
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17 Apr 05:03 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Yeah I learnt that you don't know what you are talking about.
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17 Apr 05:03 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Stripes wrote:
2ndBest wrote:

Err diving isn't part of the game because it�results in a free kick.� Just like bobsleding someone.� They are against the laws of the game, therefore you are punished.


Goal scoring, thow ins and corners are completely different.� The LOTG don't say you can't do them.� It merely states how to restart play.


If you could find the section in which the LOTG state that a player may not dive, you would have quoted it by now. Just as with goal scoring, and the ball leaving the field, the Laws explain how play is restarted after such a thing occurs.

Compare with:

A player must not use equipment or wear anything that is dangerous to himself or another player (including any kind of jewellery)

This isn't exactly rocket science.

Yeah, diving per se is not illegal in that I can do a swan dive, ala Klinsmann, when I celebrate a goal but deceiving the ref is illegal, in how FIFA want the game to be interpreted, but due to the nature of the game a lot of laws require the ref's, and his assistants, discretion.

I would suppose you can try and make the area more black and white by allowing associations/governing bodies to suspend a player retroactively with the help of video evidence but even then it will come down to the discretion of associations/governing bodies (was there contact, was there intent to deceive...).Bullion2012-04-17 17:04:17
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17 Apr 05:16 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Bullion wrote:
Yeah, diving per se is not illegal in that I can do a swan dive, ala Klinsmann, when I celebrate a goal but deceiving the ref is illegal, in how FIFA want the game to be interpreted, but due to the nature of the game a lot of laws require the ref's, and his assistants, discretion.

I would suppose you can try and make the area more black and white by allowing associations/governing bodies to suspend a player retroactively with the help of video evidence but even then it will come down to the discretion of associations/governing bodies (was there contact, was there intent to deceive...).


Isn't it obvious that what you propose is not stamping out simulation, but raising the standards? I mean, I hate a clumsy dive as much as the next fellow - but are we really going to gain that much by making forwards afraid to practice?

I should add: do you advocate a like measure for dealing with professional fouls? The Laws of the Game treat both in almost the same breath.
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17 Apr 05:19 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Bullion wrote:
Stripes wrote:
2ndBest wrote:

Err diving isn't part of the game because it�results in a free kick.� Just like bobsleding someone.� They are against the laws of the game, therefore you are punished.


Goal scoring, thow ins and corners are completely different.� The LOTG don't say you can't do them.� It merely states how to restart play.


If you could find the section in which the LOTG state that a player may not dive, you would have quoted it by now. Just as with goal scoring, and the ball leaving the field, the Laws explain how play is restarted after such a thing occurs.

Compare with:

A player must not use equipment or wear anything that is dangerous to himself or another player (including any kind of jewellery)

This isn't exactly rocket science.

Yeah, diving per se is not illegal in that I can do a swan dive, ala Klinsmann, when I celebrate a goal but deceiving the ref is illegal, in how FIFA want the game to be interpreted, but due to the nature of the game a lot of laws require the ref's, and his assistants, discretion.

I would suppose you can try and make the area more black and white by allowing associations/governing bodies to suspend a player retroactively with the help of video evidence but even then it will come down to the discretion of associations/governing bodies (was there contact, was there intent to deceive...).


The problem you can have with a video is depending on the direction it is shot from. The video of Young shown on this thread, taken from behind looks a really bad dive. I have seen another taken from in front and you would swear that is was a definate penalty.Leggy2012-04-17 17:20:37

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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17 Apr 05:44 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Stripes wrote:
Bullion wrote:
Yeah, diving per se is not illegal in that I can do a swan dive, ala Klinsmann, when I celebrate a goal but deceiving the ref is illegal, in how FIFA want the game to be interpreted, but due to the nature of the game a lot of laws require the ref's, and his assistants, discretion.

I would suppose you can try and make the area more black and white by allowing associations/governing bodies to suspend a player retroactively with the help of video evidence but even then it will come down to the discretion of associations/governing bodies (was there contact, was there intent to deceive...).[/QUOTE]

Isn't it obvious that what you propose is not stamping out simulation, but raising the standards? I mean, I hate a clumsy dive as much as the next fellow - but are we really going to gain that much by making forwards afraid to practice?

I would say the standard is already set, in how the LOTG should be interpreted, however the ability to discern whether deception has taken place will be raised hopefully to the point where the risk of being caught for deceiving a ref is greater than it is now so that players rather not take that risk.

Conversely I could imagine ref's might not police or look out for these instances in a game relying on post game analysis applying the law, thus maybe missing acts of deception in crucial games where players might accept that the rewards outweigh the risks.

[QUOTE=Stripes]I should add: do you advocate a like measure for dealing with professional fouls? The Laws of the Game treat both in almost the same breath.

In essence yes. IIRC there are provisions that allow for measures like this to be taken post game if the ref has missed the instance or the player has been red carded, it wouldn't be much more to allow for instances where the ref has acknowledged an offence.

Anyway, 4 more games to go. Two Uniteds in the top 4?
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17 Apr 05:53 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Interesting piece by Gary Neville

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2126567/Gary-Neville-Andy-Carrolls-dive-laugh--zero-tolerance-wont-ground.html
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17 Apr 06:42 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
ChopperNZ wrote:
Interesting piece by Gary Nevillehttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2126567/Gary-Neville-Andy-Carrolls-dive-laugh--zero-tolerance-wont-ground.html



Cheers Chopper, very interesting.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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17 Apr 09:38 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
el grapadura wrote:
More from Garry Neville on this - couldn't agree with more.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq65vw_gary-neville-tells-it-like-it-is-on-diving_sport?from_fb_popup=1&code=AQBcoT1wvV8hHvpxDhAU050dZqg6kc50F9DdSmehFnm6Ga3YXbL4tZtWjWp7DUZ-vlUTd11CWW3qrFsSO_XjKNU9z14SBZGbo_h2rIkbrj_FYuF-vvrSruxVm14jZClCH8r_tgBlZ9VEnAk0_SEnWPNL5yiANqaQj4ldeL32LLrnoYT85jGoy57uE9nMsCE-bE0#_=_


Very interesting that.

One thing I do hate, and think could be outlawed, was mentioned. When a player feigns injury and holds part of the body that there was no contact with.

Overall though, the whole thing is very hard to deal with and the more you look into it the more complicated it seems to get.

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17 Apr 09:42 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
EG, that was exactly how I felt.
Had a few mates ring me today saying Utd have cheated their was to leading the EPL.Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.
What a bunch of t**sers.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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17 Apr 09:48 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Leggy wrote:
Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.


Playing the game is irrelevant. Pele is one of the best players of all time, yet whenever he talks about football these days he makes himself look completely stupid. Same with Platini.

Three for me, and two for them.

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17 Apr 10:33 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Diving is not considered illegal only if you play for United?

Is that what you are suggesting? Well to be honest you are quite correct.

United have been awarded (And scored)from tow obvious 'dives'. Anyone else would not have. Must be a new FA or Fifa law that protects united from such offences eh? Lonegunmen2012-04-17 22:33:54
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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17 Apr 10:52 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
that neville piece was very good

young is still a disgrace though
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17 Apr 11:09 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Stripes - I admire people who continue their arguement even when they are completely wrong and look like a twat (it is my Modus Operandi), but you have taken this way too far.
 
I only caught bits and peices of G Nev talking last night about diving, but what I saw was wrong.  He was showing examples of Beckham, Gerrard and Lampard dive, and saying "would you call these players cheats?"  Well, yes - you have just shown examples of them cheating.  It seemed that the arguement was that they were English and we like these players, so it is ok.   I love G Nev as a pundit (and a commentator), and Monday Night Football is brilliant now he is on it, but he was completely wrong there.

All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight

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17 Apr 12:27 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Lonegunmen wrote:
Diving is not considered illegal only if you play for United?

Is that what you are suggesting? Well to be honest you are quite correct.

United have been awarded (And scored)from tow obvious 'dives'. Anyone else would not have. Must be a new FA or Fifa law that protects united from such offences eh?


Anyone else would have not? Don't be a knob, plenty of dives have been awarded penaltys this season. If it shocks you that much I bet you I wouldn't have to look hard to find someone from QPR "diving".

It's easier to make up conspiracies than it is to admit inferiority.
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17 Apr 20:52 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Lonegunmen wrote:
Diving is not considered illegal only if you play for United?

Is that what you are suggesting? Well to be honest you are quite correct.

United have been awarded (And scored)from tow obvious 'dives'. Anyone else would not have. Must be a new FA or Fifa law that protects united from such offences eh?
 
Stop embarrasing yourself.
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17 Apr 21:39 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.


Playing the game is irrelevant. Pele is one of the best players of all time, yet whenever he talks about football these days he makes himself look completely stupid. Same with Platini.


What a load of crap.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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17 Apr 21:48 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Leggy wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.


Playing the game is irrelevant. Pele is one of the best players of all time, yet whenever he talks about football these days he makes himself look completely stupid. Same with Platini.


What a load of crap.


I suggest you read some of the drivel Pele has come out with over the years then

Three for me, and two for them.

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17 Apr 21:50 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Leggy wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.


Playing the game is irrelevant. Pele is one of the best players of all time, yet whenever he talks about football these days he makes himself look completely stupid. Same with Platini.


What a load of crap.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/1863/world-cup-2010/2010/06/07/1963293/top-10-wrong-pele-predictions

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. You can't trust people.

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17 Apr 22:09 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.


Playing the game is irrelevant. Pele is one of the best players of all time, yet whenever he talks about football these days he makes himself look completely stupid. Same with Platini.


What a load of crap.


I suggest you read some of the drivel Pele has come out with over the years then

 
Didn't Pele come out the other day saying the Neymar was better than Messi?

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17 Apr 22:35 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
and that Nicky Butt was the best player in the world in 2002
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17 Apr 23:37 · edited 09 Sep 05:00

Lads - we better listen to Leggy. He is a former AW so must know what he is talking about.  Just like Billy Harris and Sam Malcolmson.

2ndBest2012-04-18 11:48:13
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17 Apr 23:55 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
BarryZuckerkorn wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.


Playing the game is irrelevant. Pele is one of the best players of all time, yet whenever he talks about football these days he makes himself look completely stupid. Same with Platini.


What a load of crap.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/1863/world-cup-2010/2010/06/07/1963293/top-10-wrong-pele-predictions
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/7809801/pele-cult-celebrity
Fruglo on 15.01.2013 wrote:

Fuck this stupid game

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18 Apr 01:55 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Err, right I've thoroughly had my fill of this platform diving discussion and it's been lovely having you all on this thread, but if you want to continue 'diving' into it, may i suggest you start another thread? Mind the ladder and you can discuss double-pikes with a twist to your hearts' content.

Right, Man U have Everton coming up. Surely the Toffees have nothing much to play for and will be a bit down after the Cup loss. What do we think? And I see a report Fabio is potentially to be loaned out. What do we think of that? Some good recent experience - Welbeck and Cleverley.Stretford End2012-04-18 13:57:01

Kotahitanga. We are one.

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18 Apr 02:01 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
I like the idea of Fabio going out on loan. The rumours are Fabio (loan), Bebe, Macheda, and 20-odd million to Benfica for Nicholas Gaitan.
 
I must say I've been impressed with Gaitan with what I've seen. And a chance to clear out some of the deadwood, and give Fabio experience... I like that idea.
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18 Apr 02:30 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
BarryZuckerkorn wrote:

Leggy wrote:
Buffon II wrote:
Leggy wrote:
Thats because they have never played the game and have no idea.


Playing the game is irrelevant. Pele is one of the best players of all time, yet whenever he talks about football these days he makes himself look completely stupid. Same with Platini.


What a load of crap.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1863/world-cup-2010/2010/06/07/1963293/top-10-wrong-pele-predictions



Thats a fair point, but he is making predictions there, that hardley the same thing.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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18 Apr 02:33 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
2ndBest wrote:

Lads - we better listen to Leggy. He is a former AW so must know what he is talking about.� Just like Billy Harris and Sam Malcolmson.



Dale, were you born like that or have you had to do some studying.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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18 Apr 05:08 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Paulinho wrote:
I like the idea of Fabio going out on loan. The rumours are Fabio (loan), Bebe, Macheda, and 20-odd million�to Benfica for Nicholas Gaitan.
�

I must say I've been impressed with Gaitan with what I've seen. And a chance to clear out some of the deadwood, and give Fabio experience... I like that idea.


Concerned on a couple of fronts: if Fabio is to be loaned I'd prefer to see him at somewhere like Norwich or Swansea (ie EPL); not playing in the Portugese 1st division, as the reason for loaning him out is surely to learn more about playing in the EPL. Playing him in Portugal hints at a different long term strategy; ie sell to La Liga or Serie A club.

Also, where is our cover at left back for Evra - Raphael?

Surely Evans, Smalling, Jones are medium term replacements for Vidic and Rio; but none of those 3 look to be left back cover; and only just right back cover (but I'm not yet convinced against true trickery and pace).

Then there is Gaitan himself. Not sure he has the pedigree to hit the ground running as a goal scoring midfielder and he is too old to be considered a 'development' opportunity. I'd prefer to see on-going development of Cleverley, Anderson, Pogba and us going for a heavy hitter.

Kotahitanga. We are one.

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18 Apr 08:57 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Stretford End wrote:
Paulinho wrote:
I like the idea of Fabio going out on loan. The rumours are Fabio (loan), Bebe, Macheda, and 20-odd million�to Benfica for Nicholas Gaitan.
�

I must say I've been impressed with Gaitan with what I've seen. And a chance to clear out some of the deadwood, and give Fabio experience... I like that idea.


Concerned on a couple of fronts: if Fabio is to be loaned I'd prefer to see him at somewhere like Norwich or Swansea (ie EPL); not playing in the Portugese 1st division, as the reason for loaning him out is surely to learn more about playing in the EPL. Playing him in Portugal hints at a different long term strategy; ie sell to La Liga or Serie A club.

Also, where is our cover at left back for Evra - Raphael?

Surely Evans, Smalling, Jones are medium term replacements for Vidic and Rio; but none of those 3 look to be left back cover; and only just right back cover (but I'm not yet convinced against true trickery and pace).

Then there is Gaitan himself. Not sure he has the pedigree to hit the ground running as a goal scoring midfielder and he is too old to be considered a 'development' opportunity. I'd prefer to see on-going development of Cleverley, Anderson, Pogba and us going for a heavy hitter.


I can understand your comment re the cover for the fullback comment, but the fact is that he has had a few injuries and has not been playing. It does not really matter if he is playing in the EPL or somewhere else, as long as he is playing 1st team football every week.Portugal is as good as anywhere and that is his native language will be a plus.

If you are old and wise you were probably young and stupid

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18 Apr 12:05 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Evans has played as left back cover (think a few games end of last season?) I would also assume there would be a recall clause inserted into the deal Reading132012-04-19 00:05:16
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18 Apr 21:11 · edited 09 Sep 05:00
Leggy wrote:
Stretford End wrote:
Paulinho wrote:
I like the idea of Fabio going out on loan. The rumours are Fabio (loan), Bebe, Macheda, and 20-odd million to Benfica for Nicholas Gaitan.
 

I must say I've been impressed with Gaitan with what I've seen. And a chance to clear out some of the deadwood, and give Fabio experience... I like that idea.


Concerned on a couple of fronts: if Fabio is to be loaned I'd prefer to see him at somewhere like Norwich or Swansea (ie EPL); not playing in the Portugese 1st division, as the reason for loaning him out is surely to learn more about playing in the EPL. Playing him in Portugal hints at a different long term strategy; ie sell to La Liga or Serie A club.

Also, where is our cover at left back for Evra - Raphael?

Surely Evans, Smalling, Jones are medium term replacements for Vidic and Rio; but none of those 3 look to be left back cover; and only just right back cover (but I'm not yet convinced against true trickery and pace).

Then there is Gaitan himself. Not sure he has the pedigree to hit the ground running as a goal scoring midfielder and he is too old to be considered a 'development' opportunity. I'd prefer to see on-going development of Cleverley, Anderson, Pogba and us going for a heavy hitter.


I can understand your comment re the cover for the fullback comment, but the fact is that he has had a few injuries and has not been playing. It does not really matter if he is playing in the EPL or somewhere else, as long as he is playing 1st team football every week.Portugal is as good as anywhere and that is his native language will be a plus.
 
Well Evra is a machine and just seems to keep going. Having said that. there have been a couple of cheap options mentioned that could come in as understudy for Evra... the Copenhagen fullback Bryan Oveido is one...
 
 
That story mentions Anderson might be used in the Gaitan deal... that concerns me a little.
 
 
 
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