(The not-so-temporary quite-official) Gooner Thread

final 2-0.

Yuk.

On the upside that is our first loss since Everton away last season, and our toughest CL group game out the way.

On the downside I'm reading that we were very poor.

Interested to hear how Bellerin went?

Hard to say how Bellerin went in such an overall awful performance. He seriously lacks in strenght though, and if we're to rely on him at any point in the premier league, that will be targeted.

I thought Arteta and Mertesacker were particularly poor. Generally Mert has amazing positioning to counter his lack of pace, but he was all oer the shop. Arteta, well, was Arteta. He was domintated and the commentators didn't stop mentioning how obviously Arsenal need a DMF.

Welbeck did alright, I thought. He got himself in to a couple of great positions to score, which showed great ability, but alas his finishing was well off.

Dortmund were great, we were shite. As easily as it could have been 2-2, it could have (and probably should have) been 4-0.

This is the case for us too, but not all get ESPN 2, just seems strange to put the LIV game as top billing

We were dire and were played off the pitch, can't say much else than that. Welbeck had 3 good chances and again failed to even make the keeper work.

Yeah I watched the first half and was just dire.

He certainly didn't, but did well to get in to those positions with some nice touches. And I thought was good defensively, winning ball back a few times. Certainly the problems were elsewhere with a non existing holding midfielder and indecisive defenders.

god that was as directionless as united have been the last 14months :(

We were worse until last week end.

Exactly, just didn't think it needed to be said. Arsenal fans worldwide cried out for a holding midfielder, and it hasn't taken long to show why we needed on. As for defence, again we all knew we needed one and it's what? not even 3 weeks since the window shut and we're down to 3 fit established defenders.

Interesting

http://www.canterburytimes.co.uk/Arsenal-agree-deal-Barcelona-wonderkid/story-22931958-detail/story.html?

What's your take on these comments?

I kind of think, after not getting one or saying how close / why one wasn't bought, that saying this is pointless and probably just makes the situation a little more silly.

Hopefully the boys bounce back with 3 points this weekend. Wouldn't mind seeing some rotation.

Bit pointless. There aren't many Vieiras around anymore but there are certainly players who could have improved us. Main thing is this formation though. Too many attacking midfielders so we're playing an unsuitable formation to fit as many of them into the lineup as possible. First things first we should go back to the formation that worked last season and get players into their best positions. If there are too many for the same positions then leave someone out and rotate them. There will be plenty of games to go around.

As an aside Hawk, what were the Naenae Nighthawks like this season? Someone from my team is trying to organise a possible post season friendly with them and I see they were in cap 9 (we're cap 8).

Depends on what Naenae Nighthawks show up, judging from some of their results and then two games we have played against them. We had two hard fought games against them, they're a physical team and won a lot of aerial ball. We drew 4-4 with them and won a game 2-1 (I think), and that was luckily too. So yeah, they're decent enough, and good guys. Much better than the Chuggers anyway. Haha.

That's pretty exciting Paul! Very highly rated from the various things I have just now read.

Meh. Hard to get excited about yet another Barcelona youth who will have the DNA and all that if he comes good.

Thanks Hawk. Game probably won't go ahead now anyway as half of our guys are unavailable.

I think this guy's a little further along than the other barca youth products we've signed. He's 19, debuted for Barca (and scored) in their opening La Liga match, and got called up to the Spanish squad for the recent euro qualifiers. 

Reckon Arsene needs to freshen things up this weekend. I'd rest Ramsey and Ozil for starters. Perhaps give Rosicky and Podolski a chance, they'll be champing at the bit. We have depth in midfield and the forwards, lets use it. 

Agree completely Paul. Have thought on several occasions this season a game could be changed or at least improved by Rosicky coming on. He did it last year, no reason why not this year. Slight mix up for Villa, complete rotation for Southampton. 

Chambers Koscielny Mertesacker Gibbs

                       Arteta

Oxlade    Rosicky    Cazorla    Sanchez

                    Welbeck

This would be my preference for Villa, assuming we'll be sticking with 4-1-4-1.

Welbeck to open his account.

Yea wouldnt be surprised if we put out absolute kids in the soton game, we just can't afford not to rotate

In saying that, our depth in some positions means that the midfield and forward line will still be very strong

Just caught up on City & Dortmund games.

City:

1) Debuchy is an unlucky SOB, that looked awful.

2) I like our zonal marking but as Adrian points out in The Breakdown chambers should have pushed forward. Zonal only works if you understand how to push forward.

3) Cities first was a cracker, and genuinely hard to defend, perfect weighted cross just as Ramsey attempted the tackle, met by a perfectly timed run he just snuck in. I do wonder if Szy got caught out moving in too quickly.

4) Nice to see Jack score and claim an assist. He needs Ramsey's season of last year and that was what he looked like. Plus of course the big hit on Nasri =D

5) Welbeck's chip should have been a goal. I applaud the technique and confidence, but had he slotted that bottom corner he would have sent the game down a different path. Unfortunately he now looks like the bell end who missed a 1 v 1.

Dortmund:

1) Their first goal was very lucky. As their striker runs at Koscielny, Kos positions himself to cover the inside and send the man down the line. The man starts heading inside and Kos turns to cover, the attacker awkwardly miskicks the ball attempting to dribble and it springs to the line flat footing Kosc and he finishes well. That goal is a great example of fortune favouring the brave. For me it highlighted the lack of break up play happening further up the field.

2) Their second goal was a cluster f*ck of mistakes. Bellerin should have been in their players face & blocked the pass. When you have his speed you can afford to risk them going past you as you know you'll get them back damn quickly. Secondly Kosc & Per were too far apart, Kosc was trying to cover the man at the back stick, however that's where either Gibbs or Arteta should have been. For me, on a counter, our DMF should be running to slot into the back 4 to cover whoever is out of position. In that case he was sitting about 3 meters in front of Kos/Per with no one near him.

Although in both games this mythical next generation Vieira would have been lovely, the f*ck ups of our back 4 & blind luck of the opposition would still have made their work a lot harder.

Two massive games for the season down, looking forward to the response at Villa & Soton. Oh, and he should be rotating that squad heavily for Soton, which should mean Ospina, Rosicky, Podolski, Diaby, Coquellin, Campbell, Sanogo, Ox, Bellerin, Zelalem, Flamini all get game time. Also a great chance to bring Isaac Hayden into the fold.

it breaks my heart to see fabregas settling so well at chelsea. what might have been

I wouldn't worry. He'll get injured and then down tools from January on as he has done throughout his career.

would that mean he offers more or less value than ozil in your opinion?

Clearly more at present but if we made the change back to the sort of formation that worked last season and get Ozil into his best position and in form then there may not be much between them. Fabregas also has the advantage of a top class striker in front of him in Costa, and backups with strong track records in this league in Drogba and Remy. Ozil has Giroud who is injured for at least half the season, a United reserve who looks like he couldn't hit a barn door at present and a 21 year old who has never scored a goal.

Walcott can't come back soon enough.

I strongly suspect Cesc would currently be in our colours had he been available when we bought Ozil. 

As it stands Cesc is looking like far better value but people are writing Ozil off awfully quickly. Lets not forget he has consistently been the highest provider of goals in europe for a few years now. He will be back. 

When things start to click this Arsenal team is going to be an absolute peach.

Also a thought for those who like to look for positives... we don't even look like losing players like we did in recent years - a notable shift in Arsenal headlines is that we only read about who we might get now, rather than who might leave. So although we spectacularly failed to shore up the defence and get a DM, you would think we'll at least remedy some of that problem in Jan, if not all of it. We had a long shopping list in the recent transfer window - we had to get a RB, a CB, a striker, back-up keeper, we wanted a DM, and we rightly devoted time and funds to Sanchez. Of those 6 things we got 4 - if we got the other two in Jan I'd be pretty ok with that. At the absolute least we MUST get a CB in Jan, and as close to Jan 1 as possible would be nice. 

Have to wait see. We've had a couple of years of not losing our stars now which is a move in the right direction. But if we continue to finish 4th every season with no sign of improvement then I imagine there will come a time when it will be difficult to hold onto people like Koscielny and Ramsey when Real/Bayern/City/Chelsea come for them.

Wenger doesn't tend to do the January window. He'll sign someone on deadline day if 4th is in doubt, but wouldn't expect anything much otherwise.

Agree with your first paragraph... but the last one? Wenger most definitely never makes signings just because the top 4 might be in doubt. 

For me a weakness of his is that he holds out for the exact players he wants and we don't seem to have a plan B if they don't come through. 

That must surely be what happened with our CB situation this season, and our striker situation last season too. 

Finally some good injury news... flamini fine, wilshere fine, chambers back after missing dortmund.

And on debuchy, wenger has said we find out tonight whether or not he requires surgery. If he does, 3 months, if he doesn't, 6 weeks.

Better than expected news on all counts there.

Good news on those three. As well as not having a backup plan, he will not budge from his valuation which is usually not in line with current market rates. So instead of paying a bit more than he'd like and getting what we need, we bank the money and go without. Unfortunately when you're desperate sometimes you just have to pay. 

Just reading that we have cash reserves of 173 million in our latest financial results - pride of london has a very good point in that respect. There is absolutely no financial excuse for not bringing in another defender in the recent transfer window. 

It also begs the question - who is this down to? 

Wenger is commonly blamed but in reality, it surely can't be solely him that refuses to pay a wee bit extra to get a deal over the line - if that was the case you would think the board etc would be making him accountable. Gazidis etc are experienced businessmen, they didn't get to where they are by not getting deals over the line, so who is asking the questions behind the closed doors?

Exactly who in our organisation is responsible for the failure to purchase that defender? I know we don't have a director of football but we do have that guy who has been a negotiator for our recent deals, I forget his name now. What does he do exactly?

I know we pretty much whinge every year about a player we needed and didn't get, but this year's failure to shore up the defence is definitely the worst transfer failure in memory for me. At the very least in the past we've had the squad numbers, just perhaps not the quality - this time we are just completely short at CB, regardless of quality. 

Yea sorry I didnt mean to imply you were writing ozil off ;)

There is a lot of that sort of talk in the media stuff I've been reading though, which is a bit mental. 

I loved Arsene's quote in the presser, something like "scapegoat for what? we've lost one game since April 1"

Kind of puts things in perspective...

Dick Law. I have not been able to find even a photo of him so I'm convinced he doesn't actually exist and is a made up name to take some heat off Wenger and Gazidis.

It's been clear for a long time that Wenger has total control of all football matters. The board will not intervene. He gets the 4th place CL money they ask for and keeps them in profit. Kroenke continues to laugh all the way to the bank. The only way I see things changing is if we do actually miss out on the CL eventually. Heard a great quote on the Tuesday Club last season I think from Ian Stone. The difference between Chelsea and Arsenal is Chelsea have an owner who wants to win the CL and Arsenal have an owner who goes to 2 games a season.

It does sound like a made-up name hahahahaha

But seriously why is that guy not being made accountable along with Wenger and everyone else? 

Wenger's not in charge of all transfer-related business. He will be selecting the players he wants and helping to get them, but he wouldn't have been at the pope match if he was the single person responsible for transfers.

He clearly identified several CB candidates that he wanted, we had the money, so where are they? I very much doubt Wenger would've said 'hmmm that's a little too expensive lets just stick with what we have...'

If he did really do that, then I'm all for him being accountable for that f*ck up, but I really doubt it.

I reckon there was some shouting going behind the scenes after deadline day that we'll never hear about. 

We both want to win the CL, that's not a difference at all.

We don't have an owner, we have a majority shareholder. 

I take pride in the fact that our club is not propped up by someone financing losses year on year. 

Can't see how winning trophies that way would be very satisfying really. 

John Nicholson summarised it quite well;

http://www.football365.com/john-nicholson/9308354/...

some good chats here guys. I agree that there has to be accoutability for more than just Wenger. i have no doubt, when he left for Rome on deadline day he left with identified targets to be bought, I just dont know why it was left til then. but thats a discussion that has been well covered on this thread. 

its fantastic that players arent being rumoured to leave these days, such a welcome change.

great news on the injury front. 3 points tonight.

Oh I agree, of course I wouldn't want to be like Chelsea and win that way. But there's a difference between spending some of your profit on a consistent goal scorer and adequate centre back cover or spending hundreds of millions and making losses. 173 million cash reserves in the bank. We're run like a business to make profits, not a top football club.

BUT, and its an important BUT, those profits are in the Arsenal bank account, not a shareholders bank account, or a sugar daddies bank account. No one knows why we didn't sign a 4th choice CB, but we do know we can do something about in January if we have to.

True, and that makes it even more strange as the money is just there to be invested in the team, it's not reliant on anyone putting it in. Let's just hope we're not already out of everything and it's not too late to matter January.

But back onto what matters now, important to get back to winning ways tonight. Got a Villa supporting mate (possibly the only Villa fan in NZ?) who has already been having a go for the last week about them beating us last season. As for a lineup I'd go:

                         Szsezsny

Chambers Koscielny Mertesacker Gibbs

                 Ramsey    Wilshere

Sanchez           Cazorla          Podolski         

                        Welbeck      

Back to the formation that worked last season. Wilshere has been our best player in the last couple of games and would like to see him alongside Ramsey. Cazorla has looked good when coming on and deserves a start in his best position. Ozil needs to earn his place back. Podolski must also be chomping at the bit for a game and the run he made in his brief appearance the other day showed why he is better equipped than anyone else we have to play wide left. Expect Wenger to start the same lineup as the other day with just Chambers in for Bellerin though.

Welbeck needs to start putting away some of these chances.