Correct. But theres an increasing chance your obsession with seeing them relegated might not happen either.
i would only love to see them relegated cause they blatently cheat (within the laws of course)
bobboltontawa22008-07-30 13:23:30
johnny the leagues over mate.and ur rite the mar wont be dropping players down to CP perhaps coz they have ambitions of going through the league unbeaten?
I guess we will find out in three weeks when they play each other...
Edit : fixing tags - HN
Hard News2008-07-30 14:17:47Edit : fixing tags - HN
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Frankie you are missing the point -it is not about being about to use the rules to your advantage (ie pretty much cheating which I fully endorse and will not hesitate to do 
) - but why the dispensation to play on Sunday was given which gives obvious advantages?
) - but why the dispensation to play on Sunday was given which gives obvious advantages?
Does this mean that Karori can ask for its four Div 11 teams to play at 12.00 on Sunday and the second team at 2pm Sunday - therefore allowing (through manipulation) the ability to field the same team for first and seconds. If so I will put in my request now (I might use Matt Calcott Consulation Services Ltd to do it)
Feverish2008-07-30 14:14:22Founder
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How many players have played Central League for Wests this year? I'm sure that due to Team Wellington, the NZ U23s, injuries and players going overseas, Wests will of fielded more players at this level, than any other club in the league by a long stretch. Just because a player has played a few games for them because of this, doesn't really make them a "1st team player" or a week in and week out Central League player. Players from the 2nd team have had to have been brought up to the 1st team to help plug the gaps, but no offense to them, they are not "1st team players" or would never have been regarded as 1st team players before the start of the season. It has been the situation that Matt has found himself in. How many times has he actually been able to play the same starting XI from the week before and at the start of the season how many of the "9" would you have classed as genuine CL starters for Wests given the players who they have had this year. Good on them for using the rule to their advantage. Its not cheating if its in the rules and like it was stated earlier, Wests make sure everything is above board before they do anything. I'm sure other teams have used it to their advantage before, will continue to do so or if not already, will look at doing it now. Some people just get on their high horse because its Wests. What if Tawa, Karori or Wellington United were doing it, would there be so much debate and conspiracy theory talk being thrown about? I wonder!
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How many players have played Central League for Wests this year? I'm sure that due to Team Wellington, the NZ U23s, injuries and players going overseas, Wests will of fielded more players at this level, than any other club in the league by a long stretch. Just because a player has played a few games for them because of this, doesn't really make them a "1st team player" or a week in and week out Central League player. Players from the 2nd team have had to have been brought up to the 1st team to help plug the gaps, but no offense to them, they are not "1st team players" or would never have been regarded as 1st team players before the start of the season. It has been the situation that Matt has found himself in. How many times has he actually been able to play the same starting XI from the week before and at the start of the season how many of the "9" would you have classed as genuine CL starters for Wests given the players who they have had this year. Good on them for using the rule to their advantage. Its not cheating if its in the rules and like it was stated earlier, Wests make sure everything is above board before they do anything. I'm sure other teams have used it to their advantage before, will continue to do so or if not already, will look at doing it now. Some people just get on their high horse because its Wests. What if Tawa, Karori or Wellington United were doing it, would there be so much debate and conspiracy theory talk being thrown about? I wonder!
I certainly put in my 2 cents worth last year when a similar incident occured....
I would never have called players such as Rupert Ryan and Jon Harahap (the first 2 that spring to mind) second teams players, yet they have been making their presence felt in Capital Premier.
Equally (and I'm willing to stand corrected if I'm wrong) but I believe Wests were the ones who chose to bring in the NZ U23 players when they got opportunity. They knew they would only have their services for a limited time, but chose to select them to strengthen their team for that period. You could argue they were doing it for the good of NZ football, but I can't believe its the only reason.
And every team has injuries for which they have to fill in.
And yes its in the rules...though possibly not in the "spirit of the game" (if one exists). Its largely an arguement about whether the rules are fair and correct.
Tawa, Karori cant drop anyone to the premier league as they have no higher teams, Wgtn Utd dont have a team in CPL, I dont if those teams are dropping players to other grades, but yes, I would have an issue if they were dropping 6 or 9 players to a lower team.
wulfsteam2008-07-30 15:28:58
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Equally (and I'm willing to stand corrected if I'm wrong) but I believe
Wests were the ones who chose to bring in the NZ U23 players when they got opportunity. They knew they would only
have their services for a limited time, but chose to select them to
strengthen their team for that period. You could argue they were doing
it for the good of NZ football, but I can't believe its the only reason.
Stop Out, Lower Hutt and Miramar...
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Tawa, Karori cant drop anyone to the premier league as they have no higher teams, Wgtn Utd dont have a team in CPL, I dont if those teams are dropping players to other grades, but yes, I would have an issue if they were dropping 6 or 9 players to a lower team.
Sorry, I know they can't due to their position at the moment, but what I meant was, IF they were in West's position and were doing this, would there be the same debate or is it a case of because its Wests, there must be a conspiracy. Would OTHER clubs be accused of doing the same thing was my point. Jon and Rupert are 2, but what about the other 7?
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How many players have played Central League for Wests this year? I'm sure that due to Team Wellington, the NZ U23s, injuries and players going overseas, Wests will of fielded more players at this level, than any other club in the league by a long stretch. Just because a player has played a few games for them because of this, doesn't really make them a "1st team player" or a week in and week out Central League player. Players from the 2nd team have had to have been brought up to the 1st team to help plug the gaps, but no offense to them, they are not "1st team players" or would never have been regarded as 1st team players before the start of the season. It has been the situation that Matt has found himself in. How many times has he actually been able to play the same starting XI from the week before and at the start of the season how many of the "9" would you have classed as genuine CL starters for Wests given the players who they have had this year. Good on them for using the rule to their advantage. Its not cheating if its in the rules and like it was stated earlier, Wests make sure everything is above board before they do anything. I'm sure other teams have used it to their advantage before, will continue to do so or if not already, will look at doing it now. Some people just get on their high horse because its Wests. What if Tawa, Karori or Wellington United were doing it, would there be so much debate and conspiracy theory talk being thrown about? I wonder!
as pointed above by wulf how can you POSSIBLY call Rupert Ryan and Jon Harahap 2nd team players? and you play for western suburbs so you should know better really.
Tawa, Karori and Wellington United im sure would drop their players down to their2nd teams each week like wests if they had that option - which is what this argument is actually about WHY is western suburbs allowed to play on sundays when clearly they have an advantage over every other team by bringing in 1st players from saturday games. Since capital football couldnt answer that rather simple question maybe you can?
IM not on my high horse because its wests - im on my high horse because its runing the intergrity and fairness of both central league and capital premier.
as for your under 23 players - that was your decision to sign and use them instead of the local talent that has been around in whitby and surrounding suburbs for a number of years - dont blame your desperation on that, because i know for a fact there have been a number of quality players from whitby and such like that western surburbs have turned there back on.
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Bob 1. I don't play for Wests or have any iffiliation with them.
2. I never even applied that YOU were on your high horse, so I don't know where you took that personal statement from, so why are you getting so worked up?
I agree that the rule is somthing that needs to be looked as it is causing so much concern to a number of clubs and particular people, but people blaming Wests is unfair because it is in the rules.
As for your last statement Bob, well that really shows your level of intellegence and maturity.
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Bob 1. I don't play for Wests or have any iffiliation with them.
2. I never even applied that YOU were on your high horse, so I don't know where you took that personal statement from, so why are you getting so worked up?
I agree that the rule is somthing that needs to be looked as it is causing so much concern to a number of clubs and particular people, but people blaming Wests is unfair because it is in the rules.
As for your last statement Bob, well that really shows your level of intellegence and maturity.
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Equally (and I'm willing to stand corrected if I'm wrong) but I believe
Wests were the ones who chose to bring in the NZ U23 players when they got opportunity. They knew they would only
have their services for a limited time, but chose to select them to
strengthen their team for that period. You could argue they were doing
it for the good of NZ football, but I can't believe its the only reason.
Stop Out, Lower Hutt and Miramar...
Sorry, I didn't mean they were the only ones, just that it was their choice to do it and that they knew the players would be leaving mid-season (not that I disagree with the option, I'm sure our club would have if we could)
Maybe I wasn't willing to be corrected
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Rules are rules and will always be manipulated no matter what they are.
Upsets galore last weekend, but what will this weekend have in store? my picks...
- The one hour drive will be too much for marist, KCU will pounce on their tiredness, 4 zip.
- The Mar, though in 6th place, will be desperate for the points (as will wests). The loser of this one will be in serious danger of the drop. One nil to the home team.
- Tawa vs Karori. 11 goals in Karori's game last week, only two will be scored this weekend, both belonging to Tawa at home.
- Island Bay were veitched by Karori last week, but will manage a draw on the sacred wetlands, 1 each.
- Wairarapa comfortably over the L hutt.
A week for the home teams to shine, let's hope the sun does too.
Upsets galore last weekend, but what will this weekend have in store? my picks...
- The one hour drive will be too much for marist, KCU will pounce on their tiredness, 4 zip.
- The Mar, though in 6th place, will be desperate for the points (as will wests). The loser of this one will be in serious danger of the drop. One nil to the home team.
- Tawa vs Karori. 11 goals in Karori's game last week, only two will be scored this weekend, both belonging to Tawa at home.
- Island Bay were veitched by Karori last week, but will manage a draw on the sacred wetlands, 1 each.
- Wairarapa comfortably over the L hutt.
A week for the home teams to shine, let's hope the sun does too.
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OK SO HAS ANYONE FOUND OUT WHY WESTS RESIES ARE ALLOWED TO PLAY AT HOME ON SUNDAY??
You already know why as it was posted here.
A dog with a bone :)
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why was this not an issue for the first 10 weeks of the season?
Or last season? Or the season before? Or etc etc etc
becuase wests played have there games on saturday every season before - and have also been in a position to win central league
everyone else (ie. olympic) who played on a sunday had a resonable explanation
wests and capital football dont have alot.
Short memory you have. Their 2nds used to play Friday night games and before that their 1st played Friday night games.
A dog with a bone :)
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so I think we have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that Wests have always played their second team games on different days to their first team, and the bubbles currently do the same. So can Bob and Feverish answer my two questions:
1) why was this not an issue for the first 10 weeks of the season?
2) Why was this not an issue last season, or the season before?
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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I agree. If players really don't want to have to come up against a "stacked" team then get into a Central League squad and you won't have to play the reserve teams of the big boys, because you will be classed a big boy yourself, and then you can't cry like a little girl anymore.
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so I think we have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that Wests have always played their second team games on different days to their first team, and the bubbles currently do the same. So can Bob and Feverish answer my two questions:
1) why was this not an issue for the first 10 weeks of the season?
2) Why was this not an issue last season, or the season before?
1 ) beacuse I was away in Europe and didnt care
2) Beacuse they played at Porirua Pk under lights - which was pretty cool and innovative - and something not possible on a Saturday due to rugby being played there. Now they play at Endeavour, which they could do on a Saturday.
Founder
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so if Wests played the second team games on a Friday night, it is not a problem??
I think I have worked out why this upsets Greene so much - 1 weekend a year at the moment, he is unable to go out on the piss on a Saturday night.
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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I agree. If players really don't want to have to come up against a "stacked" team then get into a Central League squad and you won't have to play the reserve teams of the big boys, because you will be classed a big boy yourself, and then you can't cry like a little girl anymore.
sorry, that is an attrocious post
Moving on ...
Now, the issue of "stacked" second teams has been around a long time, and it is probably unavoidable to a point, but the problem has probably become accentuated and more glaring in recent seasons as more and more CL teams have managed to get their reserve teams into CPL.
Back in the day, we had the perennial issue of Miramar's second team (when the Mar were in National League) being stacked late in the season to keep their reserve team in the local premier league. I ran into that many times. but, it wasnt such a drama bc it was only one club (and everybody likes Miramar)
Then they introduced the CL system and national league converted to NZFC. First of all, we had Wests work their 2nd team into CPL, then Lower Hutt joined them, the Mar came last year, and now its possible Olympic could find their way up in 08. So, we have three reserve sides in CPL today with possibly four next year.
Now, I cannot fault or criticise the CL clubs for wanting to get and keep their 2nd teams in CPL, but it is beginning to have a quite distortionary effect on the league and its integrity (if you were lucky enough to draw Wests early in the round you ran into a bunch of kids, if you got them recently you ran into national league veterans). Hence, I think lots of people, including the likes of Feverish and Keinzley whose clubs are impacted by what is happening, are not surprisingly starting to ask questions.
I am one of these "little girls" who has never played for a big boy club, so I naturally sympathise with the likes of Wharfies, Marist and even Wairarapa. I am of the school of thought that believes the smaller, "little girl" clubs add to the vitality, colour and competitiveness of CPL and club football generally. If CPL turns into a CL reserve team league that would be a shame and make it a less interesting competition.
plus, its great to see that the little girls have their knickers in a twist about this - they are passionate about their clubs and how they fare
Marius Lacatus2008-07-30 20:54:39
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so if Wests played the second team games on a Friday night, it is not a problem??
I think I have worked out why this upsets Greene so much - 1 weekend a year at the moment, he is unable to go out on the piss on a Saturday night.
it's not a problem because the right to shift from a Saturday was granted on the basis of something constructive ie use of a top ground.
And I was away then so I was on the piss dont worry
Founder
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why was this not an issue for the first 10 weeks of the season?
Or last season? Or the season before? Or etc etc etc
I was banging on about this last year also after we lost to a LH side that was very "strong". My suggestion at the time was that they had to name to separate squads at the start of the year and at any one point only say 4 or 5 of the 1st team squad could be included in a second team squad. Needs more thinking but something along those lines...
It's not a big deal for the first 10 weeks because they don't start dropping players down until they are in trouble.
james dean2008-07-30 21:12:46Normo's coming home
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so I think we have proved beyond all reasonable doubt that Wests have always played their second team games on different days to their first team, and the bubbles currently do the same. So can Bob and Feverish answer my two questions:
1) why was this not an issue for the first 10 weeks of the season?
2) Why was this not an issue last season, or the season before?
Wasn't an issue to me last year (with Wests) because I didnt play them.
Wasn't an issue in the first 10 weeks as at that stage they were playing their normal 2nd team. Now that a number of first teamers are playing for them (artificially strengthening the team) its an issue.
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why was this not an issue for the first 10 weeks of the season?
Or last season? Or the season before? Or etc etc etc
I was banging on about this last year also after we lost to a LH side that was very "strong". My suggestion at the time was that they had to name to separate squads at the start of the year and at any one point only say 4 or 5 of the 1st team squad could be included in a second team squad. Needs more thinking but something along those lines...
It's not a big deal for the first 10 weeks because they don't start dropping players down until they are in trouble.
I find a complaint about stacking the second team with first team players very rich coming from you.......
All I do is make the stuff I would've liked
Reference things I wanna watch, reference girls I wanna bite
Now I'm firefly like a burning kite
And yousa fake fuck like a fleshlight
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I've been resisting that point Frankie.
What will Wharfies do if the Dreamers lose top spot in Cap 2 ?
What will Wharfies do if the Dreamers lose top spot in Cap 2 ?
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wharfies 2nds are goneburger, no matter what tricks greenie pulls. they are reliant on the dreamers now
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why was this not an issue for the first 10 weeks of the season?
Or last season? Or the season before? Or etc etc etc
I was banging on about this last year also after we lost to a LH side that was very "strong". My suggestion at the time was that they had to name to separate squads at the start of the year and at any one point only say 4 or 5 of the 1st team squad could be included in a second team squad. Needs more thinking but something along those lines...
It's not a big deal for the first 10 weeks because they don't start dropping players down until they are in trouble.
I find a complaint about stacking the second team with first team players very rich coming from you.......
Ha, as one of the main beneficiaries you just go and polish your medal!!
I think buckle has made some good points about keeping what is a decent competitiion fair. Not saying that dropping players down will never occur, but maybe just thinking a bit more about the whole 3 a week, each week, which allows teams to end up with loads of players in their reserves.
Is their any appetite for a CL Reserve League? Thats what they do in Auckland isn't it?
james dean2008-07-30 21:24:18Normo's coming home
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Is their any appetite for a CL Reserve League? Thats what they do in Auckland isn't it?
[/QUOTE]
I was not a fan of the old Capital Premier Reserve League. There was no promo/relegation and it lacked competitiveness bc winning semed to be secondary. It kind of sat outside the rest of the league structure, which i didnt think really worked. Also, the difference in depth between the likes of wharfies and BNU compared with Wests and Lower Hutt was too big - which also affected competitiveness of the league. Overall, the standard of football was much lower than the current 2nd tier of club footy. The best youngsters will be better served playing in Cap Prem or Cap 1 for Wests reserves against other first teams I reckon.
I imagine a CL reserve team league would be somewhat different, but have some of these same problems.
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trust News to poke his nose in and go off topic. My peave is not with teams stacking its with the Sunday games - go back to Masters 5 - Dreamers will never lose 
Founder
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Nice save Greenie, you've managed to keep yourself out of the little trap that I fell into just there.
Backroom staff sl*g off say it is...
Normo's coming home
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I thought I was doing ok, biting my tongue and not mentioning the names of any clubs from last year..... LOL
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we could start a whole new thread on Normo vs Marist last year
Founder
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I've left the country, is that not enough for you?!
Normo's coming home
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we could start a whole new thread on Normo vs Marist last year
I thought we had that thread last year? lol
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i got 1 out of 5 last week, this week who knows?
heres my predictions - whats yours?
kapiti v marist - kapiti 1-2
miramar v wests - wests 3+
tawa v karori- tawa 1-2
island bay v upper hutt - upper hutt 1-2
wairarapa v lower hutt - draw
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My only pick, Wests to be coached by HIBS own Harahap, to sub himself on and score a screamer from 30 yards for a 2-1 victory :P
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kapiti v marist - Kapiti 2-1
miramar v wests - Draw
tawa v karori- Tawa 3-1
island bay v upperhutt Draw
wairarapa v lower hutt - Fiji 6-0
Roy Out!
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youl be lucky roy to get a draw - very lucky
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youl be lucky roy to get a draw - very lucky
thats a bit harsh
i just want I Bay and Rapa to win. oh and us
Founder
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youl be lucky roy to get a draw - very lucky
thats a bit harsh
i just want I Bay and Rapa to win. oh and us
lostnomad summed it up really - looks like wests wont be travling to napier - but id like miramar to win.
as for karori winning - i can't see redwood being played on, infact wouldnt be surprised to see karori and tawa travel to onepoto.
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United player stocks plummet for big game
31.07.2008
By Gary Caffell
31.07.2008
By Gary Caffell
Wairarapa United will have just the one reserve on the bench for the match which has been labelled as perhaps the most important in the club's history, their Capital Soccer premier division fixture with Lower Hutt City on Saturday.
The small roster of players with which Wairarapa United have been operating all season has been made even smaller with news that midfielder Anton Ross will be holidaying in the South Island.
And with another of the regulars in Guiseppe Cagliari overseas the situation has been reached where Wairarapa United will have to promote one player from their second team, which is playing a Capital third division game in Wellington on the same day, to give them any reserves at all.
Which is hardly an ideal situation either as the seconds are currently in a battle to avoid relegation and can ill afford to lose any of their better players for even one game at this stage of the season."It's just what happens when even one player calls off," premier division coach Phil Keinzley said. "We don't have the numbers to come and go on that other clubs have, it's just a fact of life for us."
Defeat by a Lower Hutt City side certain to be boosted by the inclusion by many of their third-placed central league squad could severely dent Wairarapa United's chances of winning the premier division title, and with it a shot at competing at central league level themselves next season.
For a Tawa win on the same day would see them draw level with Wairarapa United at the top of the premier division points table with the bonus of having three more games to play while Wairarapa United will have two.
"There probably hasn't been a more important game in the club's history when you consider what the result could mean," Keinzley said. "We have never had a team playing at the highest level possible and this season we have a real chance to do that. A win on Saturday won't guarantee it but it will be a step in the right direction, a loss could have us heading the other way."
Just where Saturday's match will be played won't be finalised until tomorrow but with the weather forecast so poor the prospects are it will have to be transferred from the Pugh Sports Bowl in Masterton because of the bog-like ground conditions there.
Keinzley himself was keen to use another Masterton ground, Hullena Park, should that be the case but he has already been advised by the Masterton club that it won't be available even though no matches are apparently scheduled there for this Saturday. Therefore the most likely venue is Howard Booth Park in Carterton with the Carterton club signifying they will make a ground available should Wairarapa United need to utilise it, a decision which has Keinzley singing their praises.
"Obviously clubs are keen to rest their grounds whenever possible at this time of the year so it's good to know that Carterton will help us out should the need arise," he said. "And, quite honestly, I can't see that being avoided with the weather being the way it is.
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