Wellington Phoenix Men

AFC Announcement on future of Phoenix

288 replies · 2,373 views
over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
RedGed wrote:

The possible consequence of this treatment of NZ footballers by the AFC is consignment of football in NZ to the slag heap of sporting mediocrity, at a critical time of positive constructive development of the game in NZ.

It ignores the benefits possible for football in the Oceania region and NZ specifically and ultimately the World of Football in general , and indicates a poverty of spirit that is selfish in intent and myopic and lacking in vision.

 
Redged, not too sure about the rest of your suggestions (good innovatve thinking though!) But this is the key bit.  This is the message that needs to go to FIFA

Normo's coming home

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
At the same time, there has been a bit of discussion over the possibility of an "island team" entering the A League in the nearish future - they would clearly be facing the same issues as us.

As cultured as Che Bunce's left foot and as profilic as John Lammers

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
An angry Arab is a dangerous Arab IMHO.  Mohammed, Saladin, Osama bin Laden etc etc etc.  Not surprisingly, this vengeful Biin Hammam seems intent on destruction.  Who will be our Richard the Lionheart?  That is the question.
 
 
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Tis truly a sad day, when our beautiful game takes a back seat to "politics". And there has been alot of sad days these days.   

Wellington Phoenix          
           R.I.P   
     2007 - 2012Nestling2009-12-18 02:19:58
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Stevo wrote:
An angry Arab is a dangerous Arab IMHO.  Mohammed, Saladin, Osama bin Laden etc etc etc.  Not surprisingly, this vengeful Biin Hammam seems intent on destruction.  Who will be our Richard the Lionheart?  That is the question.


Saladin was Kurdish.  Please try harder.

Regarding the actual topic: the sky is not falling.  FFA has a vested commercial interest in promoting the A-League brand throughout Oceania (it's the most obvious external market).  Expect to see some kind of loopy 4+4 system adopted and for more All Whites to ply their trade in the Lucky Country, but nothing more serious.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Still plenty of time to come to a workable agreement. Keep the faith.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
sanday wrote:
Still plenty of time to come to a workable agreement. Keep the faith.


Even if we were to run out of time, Tony Lochhead could just run around the world so fast that time goes in reverse.  Seriously, all of our problems ended when Lochy was signed, why do people keep worrying about stuff?
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Phoenix just need to win the the A-league this year and so on and so on. Do your talking on the field Phoenix
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I don't really see that as being the answer though.  The FFA now have a stark choice, we shape up off the park or their clubs don't compete in the ACL (not an option).  On-field performance can't change anything, even if we win the competition the same issues will still be there.  The AFC don't care how strong we are, this release is even more clear now, these are the rules, you must play by them. 

Normo's coming home

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Wow.
What absolute bullsh*t this whole thing is.

"It's Politics. Because of a Pissant AFC. This club will never get anywhere.

Its a disgrace, and you know it. Because you are involved in it as well.

It is politics, nothing else, wether you were involved directly or indirectly."
Stefan2009-12-18 06:38:32
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
in the light of day, and in some of the posts there do seem to be some possible work arounds - and options to influence FIFA
 
whudda thunk we'd be harking back to the days of the Great Abstainer?
 
 
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
She'll be right 
E + R + O

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
One critical thing we need to do is perform on the park. Another year with a mediocre finish will not help our cause at all. It will make it a lot harder to dump a team that finishes in the top four rather than a team that consistently has finished at or near the bottom... A win tonight would be a good start!....Come on you nix!
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I think winning more games and making it into the Champions league would atleast help our cause and create a bigger profile. Come on nix! We can catch up to Sydney


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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
There's a simple solution for all this - let's become the 7th Australian state...

Failing that...Phoenix til it dies!
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This stinks entirely of sour grapes by the sulking Arabs. Someone kicked their sandcastle, now they're crying.

Easiest solution is FFA change regulations on number of foreign players allowed in the A-League, register an Australian company for the Phoenix, and play under 3+1 for the ACL if we ever make it.

I don't see the 3+1 for the ACL being an issue, I'd rather concentrate on ensuring the Phoenix continue in the A-League.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Had a think about this this morning and it does leave a lot of wiggle room for the FFA:
 
1: we have to comply with the A league rules on overseas players, the FFA just need to change the rules and count NZ players as locals (this probably means they actually come into line with the law i.e. NZ workers allowed the right to work in aus & vice versa).
 
2: follow the AFC rules if we get into the ACL
 
3: with now being registered in Aus and having nothing to do with NZ football does this mean that the FFA now will have to finance a youth team?
 
It's not all doom and gloom (yet) and we can still go to Fifa.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
It's not good news, it's terrible news. But I'm keeping the faith that something can be worked out.  I'd prefer the Kiwi's in the Nix, but if it came down to no Phoenix or the Kiwi imports Phoenix I'd take the latter option.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Ard Righ wrote:

.......
Easiest solution is FFA change regulations on number of foreign players allowed in the A-League, register an Australian company for the Phoenix, and play under 3+1 for the ACL if we ever make it.

I don't see the 3+1 for the ACL being an issue, I'd rather concentrate on ensuring the Phoenix continue in the A-League.



Being pragmatic about it, this is probably what the Nix would have to do . Agree with you, Ard Righ, we want to keep the Nix  in the A League it is then only an issue when we qualify for AFC.

 Any potential Oceania A-League expansion team would really come up against it if they ultimately qualified however.

anyone for 3 a-side?

  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
What about dual citizenship?
Look at Shane Smeltz,now playing as an australian for the Gold Coast and also for the All Whites.
Just a thought.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Teza wrote:
Had a think about this this morning and it does leave a lot of wiggle room for the FFA:
 
1: we have to comply with the A league rules on overseas players, the FFA just need to change the rules and count NZ players as locals (this probably means they actually come into line with the law i.e. NZ workers allowed the right to work in aus & vice versa).
 
2: follow the AFC rules if we get into the ACL
 
3: with now being registered in Aus and having nothing to do with NZ football does this mean that the FFA now will have to finance a youth team?
 
It's not all doom and gloom (yet) and we can still go to Fifa.


I think if, as suggested above, the FFA changed their local rules to include NZers as locals and we were allowed to include a youth team in the A- League Youth competition, this may pose an interesting question.
Perhaps NZ Football would come to an agreement with the FFA and the Nix re costs over a season to subsidise any NZ youth players, recognising the significant development investment the FFA would be putting into NZ youth players?

The more likely scenario though is a Nix Youth team will be allowed to compete in the NZF and thus avoid that particular can of worms altogether!
RedGed2009-12-18 09:17:52

  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
kiwikev wrote:
What about dual citizenship?
Look at Shane Smeltz,now playing as an australian for the Gold Coast and also for the All Whites.
Just a thought.


If he played for us then that'd be fine... can you name any others? If you're residing in NZ you can't get, or become eligible for, dual citizenship - even if you work for an Aussie business (as the Nix would be).

But if there were 10-12-15-20 people with dual citizenship all willing, capable, and able (subject to agreeing contracts) to play for us then that would be a brilliant idea.
E + R + O

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Is Moss a dual citizen ?
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SurgeQld wrote:
kiwikev wrote:
What about dual citizenship?
Look at Shane Smeltz,now playing as an australian for the Gold Coast and also for the All Whites.
Just a thought.


If he played for us then that'd be fine... can you name any others? If you're residing in NZ you can't get, or become eligible for, dual citizenship - even if you work for an Aussie business (as the Nix would be).

But if there were 10-12-15-20 people with dual citizenship all willing, capable, and able (subject to agreeing contracts) to play for us then that would be a brilliant idea.
 
I think the interesting point is that NZers and Aussies have the automatic right to work in each others country without a visa (unless they have certain criminal convictions), by asking the FFA to restrict the amount of NZers in teams are they actually asking them to break the law of the land?
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
The AFC were the ones who made FFA drop the previous regulations that had Kiwis as domestic players for all teams.  They won't allow the change to be made (even only in their domestic comp) and still let Aussie teams in the ACL.  It is their means of control.  I'm finding it hard to see a workaround without FIFA getting involved - e.g. wasn't one of the conditions of Aussies joining AFC was their continuing support of the OFC? aitkenmike2009-12-18 09:27:04
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
good point this Mike^

  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
It's the AFC that control/dictate the rules of their competition/s. Just as UEFA do, just as any other confederation does. If the FFA do not acquiesce then their teams will not be allowed into the ACL - is that not clear?

The rights of Kiwis to work in Aussie and vice versa is irrelevant. The right of Kiwi's (or anybody else) to work there is not being hindered at all.

The AFC is stating that any players that aren't Australian will be counted as imports in their competitions. And, if the FFA choose to allow NZ'ers not to count as imports for the Nix, then the AFC will choose not to allow them entry into their competition.

Their competition, they make the rules. Others choose whether or not they want to play by them, knowing what the consequences and outcomes are.
E + R + O

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I'm viewing this as a glass closer to half full (the door is ajar) than it was a little while ago (when they'd slammed it in our faces).
 
If anyone would like me to work a third metaphor into this I probably can, just ask.

Incredible stamina. No shame. Yellow Fever.

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
...And ultimately its FIFA who decide whether this AFC ruling is fostering the development of Football in the region..... or protectionist shananigans and sour grapes.

  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
SurgeQld wrote:
It's the AFC that control/dictate the rules of their competition/s. Just as UEFA do, just as any other confederation does. If the FFA do not acquiesce then their teams will not be allowed into the ACL - is that not clear?

The rights of Kiwis to work in Aussie and vice versa is irrelevant. The right of Kiwi's (or anybody else) to work there is not being hindered at all.

The AFC is stating that any players that aren't Australian will be counted as imports in their competitions. And, if the FFA choose to allow NZ'ers not to count as imports for the Nix, then the AFC will choose not to allow them entry into their competition.

Their competition, they make the rules. Others choose whether or not they want to play by them, knowing what the consequences and outcomes are.
 
I am only talking about the A League here  not the ACL and yes they are asking the FFA to hinder the right of NZers to work in Aus if they insist on NZers being counted as visa players & place restrictions on the amount in the A League.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Smithy wrote:
I'm viewing this as a glass closer to half full (the door is ajar) than it was a little while ago (when they'd slammed it in our faces).
 
If anyone would like me to work a third metaphor into this I probably can, just ask.



Ha!
The first one that leapt into my mind was...

"Empty vessels make the most sound"

I'll shut up now.

  Improving,,on the up, a work in progress from Italiano and the Nix. Bring on the bathroom bling in '24! COYN!

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Interestingly the article has disappeared from the OFC website.

TBF, it looked pretty Mickey mouse with 'Welling Phoenix' and the contrdiction on NZ players for the ACL vs Aus players for the A-League.

Any money they screwed it up and it will re-appear without the third line and with the English improved ?

How's my driving? - Whine here

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Teza wrote:
 
I am only talking about the A League here  not the ACL and yes they are asking the FFA to hinder the right of NZers to work in Aus if they insist on NZers being counted as visa players & place restrictions on the amount in the A League.


I'm not disputing what they're doing - I'm pointing out that it's their comp so they can do what they like. The FFA and then us have the choice of what to do (or not).

Hopefully the big FIFA/Lowy/Terry stick will get waved and save the day for us - and it may well do... but I don't expect it'll be sorted until later next year or 2011 so not point getting the moobies in a tangle quite yet.

There's plenty of World Cups (well, one) and a shed load of water (plus probably some tears lol) to flow under the bridge yet.
E + R + O

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
I agree with Teza, I've had this in the back of my mind since the import rules were changed to count kiwis as imports. I wonder if FFA could run by AFC using a separate quota of kiwis. ie 4 imports + 1 or 2 kiwis or something. Would help a smidgen.
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Interestingly the article has disappeared from the OFC website.

TBF, it looked pretty Mickey mouse with 'Welling Phoenix' and the contrdiction on NZ players for the ACL vs Aus players for the A-League.

Any money they screwed it up and it will re-appear without the third line and with the English improved ?


Noted that... maybe it was a webby's bad dream?
E + R + O

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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Hard News wrote:
Interestingly the article has disappeared from the OFC website.

TBF, it looked pretty Mickey mouse with 'Welling Phoenix' and the contrdiction on NZ players for the ACL vs Aus players for the A-League.

Any money they screwed it up and it will re-appear without the third line and with the English improved ?
 
 
 
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
NZPA have got hold of the story and turned it into, Wellington Phoenix may face FFA axe by 1012.

edit- 2012 timmymadden2009-12-18 10:01:20
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
This is in line with the theme that has emerged consistently to date.  The Asian authoreities dont want Wellington in the Australian competition at all.  All these types of decision are intended to make it untenable to continue.
 
There is no way FFA will give up access to ACL
 
Pessimism suggests the Wellington Phoenix ""experiment"" is going to be squeezed out of existance.
 
Optimism suggests that FIFA will come to the rescue and that Terry and Tony are smart enough to get us out of this!
 
Time also for John Key and the Government to come on side and start lobbying.....
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
They have at least allowed the team to remain, even if it only was allowed to field five New Zealand players. Just grab that. They could I would imagine, have 11 NZers on the books and only play five of them.
If not. There are a hundred ways around this.
The Phoenix could shift lock stock and barrel to Sydney. All the players move there. They then fly back and play their games in Wellington. All the Kiwi players would become Australian citizens after three years. The Phoenix could then base an academy team in Canberra, have all their youngsters go through their for three years. They would all gain Australian citizenship after three years, and would automatically all qualify. Other Kiwis could go and play for Australian clubs for three years.
Etc. Etc Etc.
The great news for me is that they're now talking seriously about a second division, in which NZ clubs could play. Bring it on, that is perfect for my Auckland City team, who are Fifth in the world.
We could play there, as could Waitakere, that would give three serious pathways for NZ football.
 
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over 16 years ago · edited over 13 years ago
Can't see what John Key has to do with anything.

There is also no reason why Wellington Phoenix FC couldn't become an Australian based company. The Nix are not lost, stop being so negative. Sure it'll be a shame that we have to drop a few kiwis but they'll get picked up by other clubs.
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