Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA (Part 1)

also that national T20 is a bs competition and it isn't an all day Saturday picnic. And there are no international games here to raise the national profile

So basically the issue is that Welnix are not football fans yet they own a football club. They want it to make money rather than just having it as a toy - but it's just not going to make money in the foreseeable future. What we want/need is a really rich person or group of people who have a connection to Wellington/New Zealand, and are interested in football. 

It's a shame Peter Jackson isn't a football fan.

Kim Dotcom anyone?

Gareth needs to get an anonymous Sue de Gnome and run his ideas past the brains trust here before going global with it....! I mean we know what we're doing right? 

I remember the story that the physicist knows how it was possible that Colin Munro put one of the roof of Wellington stadium, but that doesn't mean he is able to do it...

football isn't science it's alchemy 

 Well over the life of the nix, we've average just over 9K. So if the FFA let us keep the money from playoff games, then we're probably not that far away.

[quote=austin10]

What a bunch of moaning pussy's some of you guys are.

Welnix says they will look into playing one possibly two more away games phased in over the next few years and then Gareth suggests that it would be great if the side played a more attacking style of football and all hell breaks lose. 

Lets look at the facts....

-Welnex took the club over when it looked like folding...they admitted they were not football fans but they did it anyway using their OWN money.

-Since then they have completely restructed the club, sorted out the admin, added extra coaching staff and got the whole thing running on a professional basis

-In addition they have set up a proper youth Academy system that will in time reap huge rewards for the club.

-they have allowed the coach to spend the whole salary cap on the players he wanted

-they have funded the team to stay on in Australia to make them more competitive in their away games(Gareth personally wrote out a cheque  himself to fund one stay last season)

-Welnix are committed to turning the club around so it does not lose money every year....admitting that it will probably never make money.

-We have probably one of the best run clubs around....would you rather be a Jets supporter right now? If Welnix can get the club financially viable then it will still be here in 30 or 40 years time.

I find some of the small minded petty vitriol pointed in their direction is just pathetic. Talk of boycotts etc is just so stupid it does not warrant any comment. How do some of you people think business's are run?. If the club makes a loss the owners personally have to make up the difference, how viable is that long term. Businesses that consistently lose money go BUST!  If they can make some extra money by taking another game or two on the road then why shouldn't they?

As for Gareths comments. He is personally entitled to his opinion. The Nix have scored 13 goals from 10 games....3 or 4 of those were from penalties or Brockies free kick. So we all agree that 9 goals from open play in 10 games is unexceptible. We all want the side to play more attacking football. We all want them to score more goals. Gareth is right on the money with his comments....the football this season has been largely dire. 

So instead of some of you bitching and moaning, do what lots of us do...go to the games, get more of your mates along, buy the merchandise and support your team....coz the alternative is no Phoenix. 

As a postscript...the timing of Chairman Morrison saying they might take some more games away was terrible. Not the thing to say in mid season, especially when things are not not going well....

Good post Austin. I agree with much of what you say. In particular, people threatening to stay away from games is totally counter-productive and only increases the likelihood that this will end badly.

At the same time I think Welnix are being incredibly naive at the moment and have actually shown themselves to be a little out of their depth. I am tired of being brow-beaten by our "owners" about the need to "break-even" and have a "sustainable business model". And before anybody jumps in with "it's their money so they get to do what they want", consider this - that's not actually true.

The bulk of the funding for any A-League team actually comes from us, the fans, directly through ticket sales and pay tv subscriptions, and indirectly through sponsors' willingness to pay to market to us. That will never change. The "owners" of franchises simply provide top-up funding. If a franchise is at break-even they aren't actually providing any funding at all. I don't think a traditional profit/loss break-even model applies to a football club very well, and it fails to give appropriate weight to the very important, and distinct, roles that the various stakeholders play - especially the fans.

I think that this whole discussion would benefit if we borrowed the conceptual framework from something likeSocial Accounting or Triple Bottom Line Reporting . These concepts argue that an organisation's responsibility is to stakeholders, not just shareholders. An organisation should be used as a vehicle for coordinating stakeholder interests, not just maximising shareholder profits. If Welnix were looking at what they are doing in these terms I think it could lead to a much more constructive relationship between them and the fans. A relationship where both parties are recognised by the other as being true partners, instead of them simply treating the fans as customers, a concept they are obviously much more familiar with. This is also the kind of thinking that underpins the various 'supporters trust' movements around the world.

Agree with what you say terminator-x. Football clubs are a somewhat different "business" to normal. And fans and supporters do have a vested interest in the club both financially and emotionally. I was just a little annoyed that people were slagging off the people who dipped into their own pockets to rescue the club from the Terry troubles. Taking another game away form Wellington is not the end of the world, having an owner question the playing style when the team is playing shark football is not a disaster.....at least it shows they are interested and have a bit of passion. A month ago people were posting that they(owners) were a bunch of boring back room accountants.

These people have been very succesful throughout their lives, they don't run businesses that lose money. They also don't accept mediocrity. I think its great that Gareth has stirred things up. IMO Rickie has been drifting recently, he,s got complacent. He was complacent in the Honiara AW's fiasco. He was complacent when he accepted the Olympic junket as a "technical advisor" and left the Nix preseason to a complete junior assistant. The whole team and the coach needed a kick up the arse!. The owners have signalled that they want an attacking team.....great! The best way for the team to respond is out on the field.....if they do that then Gareth is vindicated.

Yes the stir up needed as results put bums on seats. But it is a percentage game the more away games (out of Wgtn) the less importance on a season pass. So club membership will take over, then pay per game.  Football is not a TV sport as the runs off the ball are as important as with the ball.  

the whole issue I have with the take the nix on the raod idea is we already lose two home games to other centres, in a 10 team league we get a total of 27 games (excluding playoffs) which means either 13/14 home games, take two of those on the road 11/12 at Wellington. Two more next year go to other centres and that means 9/10 at Wellington. Currently we get a home game every second weekend (average) this keeps the nix reasonably relevant and in visible, take four games on tour and it becomes a once a month thing, which will makes us almost invisible, especially given the terrible marketing around game day that is offered. If we go further and take another two on tour then we are down to eight home games which is just wrong IMO. As a season pass holder I expect to see my team play at home. Not everyone can afford the time and money to travel with the team.

Okay, now that the Phoenix are playing attacking football again, I expect to see 15k at the RoF this weekend.

wont happen, half of the city will be taking thier chirstmas holidays, thanks FFA for giving us two home games when Wellington is empty!

KInda not sure where I sit with this one... Certainty the club needs to operate in an effective manner... 

Moving of an an additional match or two .... boarders on fans not being happy... 

That the board set the direction the club wishes to go is actually a good thing... its a bold statement ... we want to play attacking football we what to win the A-League, we need to set up a training academy ...  massive good news to this point...

Then it goes on ... we should play 442....433...451...541....342.... or whatever and the coach needs to do this.... HHHHMMMMMmmmm this is bad coming from a group whose football knowledge is limited... very bad...

That the board set RH or whoever the coach is certain goals being both style titles is excellent... however it is the coach who decides how to achieve the boards requirements... can you imagine Bobby Carlton telling Sir Alex how to coach and what formation to use and broadcast that publicly ... 

SFC's board have do similar things and look were they are... 

In summary ... excellent the board set the broad goals... dump the board tell the coach how to do it.... mixed on the match's being moved...can see both sides ...

Finally out of left park I posted on another thread the cake tin is a poor stadium in terms of being round and having little protection against the weather ... a combined push with the rugby side for a better stadium I think is a must moving forward... 

 They're still paying for the current one, unlikely to support another new one.  Remeber we're talking a city with a similar population to Gosford.  Do you think anyone would justify a second stadium there?

What we need ais a really localised earthquake that destroys an empty Westpac so we can build the rectangular stadium that it should have alway been.  Too much self-interest from a minority of circket obsessed decision makers.

Back when it was built, didn't they need the cricket to make it financially sustainable? This was before a major tenant in the Phoenix came along.

Gareth is replying to the comments on his blog.

Good on him for wanting to improve the performance of the team. He has every right to. not sure if Ricki is the guy to do it, but at elast he's giving him a chance. The more I think about it the less I think it's a bad idea.

To be fair I thought we played a lot better last night. Much better passing game

no, I like having home games but I'm realistic enough to realise that the population of Wellington drops by 50% over christmas as all the government employees go on holiday - which means that there is less of a chance for the casual fan to come watch the game. We'd be better to have these four home games played over late jan/feb - the FFa realise this I'm sure and schedule the games here to make life difficult. If I'm preoved wrong and the welnix crowd have asked for these games then I'm happy to say they are daft too

agreed it's not unique, but most kiwis who live in the city vacate to the beach for a holiday over xmas, the students go home etc, and the 50% figure is a guess - but I'm sure I've read it somewhere in years passed.

I love how this week has been 'Use stats to prove others wrong' week on these forums. Much better than the subjective debate that usually happens.

To be a supporter first you must SUPPORT.

Support?  err...

We should all be commenting on Gareth's blog - it's a genuinely good chance to get our points across.

He used to read this forum.  I assume he still does.

My comment on the Gareth blog

Hi Gareth

I think there is absolutely no doubt that our current tactical approach, no matter what the personnel is, has struggled to beat the best teams each year. Over the past 3 seasons (and half of this one) we have consistently struggled to beat the top 2 teams in the league, and there has been a significant gap, no matter who they are. Without a doubt this indicates that if we are going to challenge for the league we need a change of approach because the results aren't good enough. This should be motivation enough whether or not we are getting good crowds which is an entirely separate issue. 

I think it would be preferable for the focus to move back onto the team on the pitch rather than constantly talking about crowds and finances. I think you need to consider the current PR of the club because good news is being turned into bad because of the way it is released. Why announce in the middle of the season that next year you will take more games on the road? All that does is make the hard core fans in Wgtn feel like this team is not for them which leads to further disengagement (and seems at odds with your motivation in taking over the club in the first place which was a team FOR Wellington). Focus on your core market by putting a team on the pitch this city and the fans can be proud of.

However, I don't agree with your contention that it's not about changing players and coaches. Without a change in the way the team is coached, and the technical level of the players, we are always going to struggle to improve the quality and style of play. You can't just click your fingers and impose an entirely different approach on players who are not technically able to play that way. I think you seriously need to consider the football leadership if you are truly committed to a new approach because no Ricki Herbert team has ever played in the way you are advocating. You need to be realistic about what type of changes he will be able to make.

I think it is also admirable that you want an integrated approach across the club.  However, again this will take significant leadership and vision from the football side of the club. Who is going to be the driving force behind implementing this?  I think you need to consider someone with a track record of imposing this style of football and few people in New Zealand can make the claim to have ever achieved this.

A quick note on the "academy". I think you should be careful with your expectations as this is currently structured. As it stands, we do not have an academy. We have an expanded first team squad that includes some younger players (although not particularly young by international standards - in many leagues 19 year olds are established stars). All we are doing right now is bridging the gap for players produced by the New Zealand domestic system and the A-League. The New Zealand system has for years struggled to produce players of sufficient technical quality to play the type of game you are advocating (although this is slowly changing). If you truly want to start producing a different type of player for the Phoenix you need to get players a lot younger and have them work with specialist youth coaches in your system. Ultimately there is very little you can do to improve players technically if you are only getting to work with them for the first time at 17/18/19 years old.

Finally, I think you're better off looking at modern football tactical approaches rather than looking backwards at the Dutch model of the 1970s. That's just not a method that modern football references now - much of what was admirable about the introduction of total football, a focus on possession, technically gifted players, fluid flexible play marked by off the ball movement, is really just a standard pro-active possession based tactical approach favoured by almost all successful modern football schools of thought. I would be surprised if anyone involved in high - level coaching would actively admit to attempting to play "total football" in 2012. 

With all the respect in the world for your financial commitment to the club, before you continue talking publicly about technical aspects of football coaching and tactics you need to go away and learn a lot more about the game. I think you need to leave the football to the people at the club with football experience and I suggest that you get more football experience at board level.

I endorse this

The advertisment in todays Dom Post is much, much better than anything we have seen so far this season. Looks like it has been designed by the FFA though, but it has much more of a focus on the matches themselves.

Pics or didnt happen

it happened

yip definitely A-league designed. 
If the nix had done that, they wouldnt have shipped without putting a grayscale filter on it first. And would definitely not show the dates of the games or any of our own players

I still don't get why (a) it doesn't have Paul Ifill (our most popular/recognisable player in it) and (b) random other teams A-League players.  Our players are the stars, that's who people go to watch

Isn't the 27th a 2-for-1 promo too?

Have you made a comment on Gareth's blog yet? He's answering most of the posts so get into it...

https://garethsworld.com/blog/wellington-phoenix/phoenix/