Wellington Phoenix Men

Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA (Part 2)

3353 replies · 782,129 views Locked
almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Bullion wrote:
james dean wrote:

Repeating my comment from the pod thread:

The only way the club succeeds in the long-term is by building the fanbase in Wellington. I think Greenie makes a fair point about what has not been discussed - what is the long-term strategy in taking more games to Aussie.

It clearly has an impact on home interest because it breaks up the season, it has a sporting impact because it's more games being taken away and are we really going to have no games in Auckland (when we have always been told that we need games in Auckland because the sponsors demand it). 

Again, this is being floated as something that the club "has to explore". Well does it? The WELLINGTON PHOENIX playing HOME games in SYDNEY sounds absolutely fudgeing mickey mouse to me.

What about appointing a coach, giving them control over signing players, backing young kiwis, making players and management available to the media so fans (not just hardcore) know what's going on, recruiting a CEO who has some idea about football and giving it a proper go in Wellington rather than trying to deals around the country (and now in Australia) a strategy which to date HAS PATENTLY NOT WORKED!

What's the point of a long term strategy?

What I am saying is that the current strategy has been a failure and I do not understand on what planet playing home games in Australia is a good idea.

When the Phoenix were a success they were a team that Wellington was proud of.  We are a long way from that right now  

Normo's coming home

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
james dean wrote:
Bullion wrote:
james dean wrote:

Repeating my comment from the pod thread:

The only way the club succeeds in the long-term is by building the fanbase in Wellington. I think Greenie makes a fair point about what has not been discussed - what is the long-term strategy in taking more games to Aussie.

It clearly has an impact on home interest because it breaks up the season, it has a sporting impact because it's more games being taken away and are we really going to have no games in Auckland (when we have always been told that we need games in Auckland because the sponsors demand it). 

Again, this is being floated as something that the club "has to explore". Well does it? The WELLINGTON PHOENIX playing HOME games in SYDNEY sounds absolutely fudgeing mickey mouse to me.

What about appointing a coach, giving them control over signing players, backing young kiwis, making players and management available to the media so fans (not just hardcore) know what's going on, recruiting a CEO who has some idea about football and giving it a proper go in Wellington rather than trying to deals around the country (and now in Australia) a strategy which to date HAS PATENTLY NOT WORKED!

What's the point of a long term strategy?

What I am saying is that the current strategy has been a failure and I do not understand on what planet playing home games in Australia is a good idea.

When the Phoenix were a success they were a team that Wellington was proud of.  We are a long way from that right now  

It is on planet licence expires in 2 years. 

Where the people paying the bills are sharkting themselves thinking all that money and investment for the future of the club is for nought if they don't jump through hopes put there by the FFA. 

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
james dean wrote:
Bullion wrote:
james dean wrote:

Repeating my comment from the pod thread:

The only way the club succeeds in the long-term is by building the fanbase in Wellington. I think Greenie makes a fair point about what has not been discussed - what is the long-term strategy in taking more games to Aussie.

It clearly has an impact on home interest because it breaks up the season, it has a sporting impact because it's more games being taken away and are we really going to have no games in Auckland (when we have always been told that we need games in Auckland because the sponsors demand it). 

Again, this is being floated as something that the club "has to explore". Well does it? The WELLINGTON PHOENIX playing HOME games in SYDNEY sounds absolutely fudgeing mickey mouse to me.

What about appointing a coach, giving them control over signing players, backing young kiwis, making players and management available to the media so fans (not just hardcore) know what's going on, recruiting a CEO who has some idea about football and giving it a proper go in Wellington rather than trying to deals around the country (and now in Australia) a strategy which to date HAS PATENTLY NOT WORKED!

What's the point of a long term strategy?

What I am saying is that the current strategy has been a failure and I do not understand on what planet playing home games in Australia is a good idea.

When the Phoenix were a success they were a team that Wellington was proud of.  We are a long way from that right now  

Really need that unendorse button!!

That period where the Nix were successful, was also when they were owned by a guy who is now a bankrupt.

The long term strategy of taking some games to Aussie has been well explained. A cash injection and attempt to boost crowd metrics.

It isn’t an original cuckoo idea. Various NRL clubs bring home games to NZ. St Kilda of course tried AFL games in Wellington. Which flopped. However South West Sydney is a football stronghold, whilst AFL in NZ is more of a gimmick. FYI - AFL last year took a game to China.

NFL play games in London.

Anyway Welnix explored the idea but didn’t agree to SWS’s terms. Time to move on.

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

Move to where?

Wellington maybe?


Auckland will rise once more

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

So some of you are happy taking an under performing team to Sydney to help meet the metrics. Anyone want to enlighten us as just how that's going to friggen help when no one turns up. Fudge me


GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

I'm sad we haven't had one good season for many years, and the crowd figures show it. Having one good season, making playoffs comfortably etc would boost the attendances hugely, and has flow on effects the next year. 

It just hasn't happened for us for a whole season unfortunately for a long time. One awesome half season! Can't blame the owners, or a particular manager I don't think, just sport sometimes works that way.

Sport is frustrating.

It's frustrating how the FFA don't seem to see our side of the story... They don't seem to recognise what we have done for Australian players. Nathan Burns being a classic example and it helped their national team. Even Rojas/Barba, ended up exciting players for their league and would they have if we didn't exist? Who knows what their path may have been otherwise. Heck, we even took Pavlovic off their hands for a while, I would've thought that would equal a 20 year license straight off the bat.

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.


GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

It's not happening, but you would schedule games against Sydney teams just that the 'away' support will vastly outnumber the 'home' support.
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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

Over 11,000 replies... impressive!!

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

Disclaimer: this is not my opinion, just a philosophical argument:

The FFA are on our side as fans. Our club is shark. And that pisses us off. And the FFA are calling them on it, and trying to make our club no longer shark. Therefore, the FFA are awesome. Thanks FFA ;-)

360footballnews.com

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

Yellow Fever - Misery loves company

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

I am sure if we were to play say Sydney city at WSW's stadium because it is our home game not theirs and why give them (city) the gate takings, that WSW fans would pour in to support us, especially if they were playing at ccm for example. But I cannot see them coming to watch us play Perth. Sorry but taking our home games to Aussie is just plain wrong. Get a winning team together and fans here will show. Be warned Aussie refs will try hard to ensure that doesn't happen. 

Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!

The Ruf, The Ruf, The Ruf is on Fire!!

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
patrick478 wrote:

ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

Yeah and that's gone well with attendance figures. Bit sad when you would be relying on the away fans to make up the numbers. Think it was pretty obvious I was referring to the Phoenix fans not the  away fans. Hopefully looks like it's not going to happen so we may never find out.

GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

One thing Aussies always point out about the Phoenix is that it totally fails to get Kiwis living in Oz to turn up to away games.


Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Doloras wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

One thing Aussies always point out about the Phoenix is that it totally fails to get Kiwis living in Oz to turn up to away games.

When you take into account the AUS Govt hardline deportations of NZers from Oz, and the proliferation of face-recognition software used by various agencies (and supermarkets), you kinda have to accept some of our potential AUS-based fans do not turn up at games :-)

Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Mainland FC wrote:
Doloras wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

One thing Aussies always point out about the Phoenix is that it totally fails to get Kiwis living in Oz to turn up to away games.

When you take into account the AUS Govt hardline deportations of NZers from Oz, and the proliferation of face-recognition software used by various agencies (and supermarkets), you kinda have to accept some of our potential AUS-based fans do not turn up at games :-)

It's kinda like trying to get Central Coast fans to turn up to any games!

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Doloras wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

One thing Aussies always point out about the Phoenix is that it totally fails to get Kiwis living in Oz to turn up to away games.

The away bay at Phoenix home games isn’t exactly full of Australians


Allegedly

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Doloras wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

One thing Aussies always point out about the Phoenix is that it totally fails to get Kiwis living in Oz to turn up to away games.

That's such a shark argument when probably a greater proportion of Australians are not turning up to home games.
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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Tegal wrote:
Doloras wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

One thing Aussies always point out about the Phoenix is that it totally fails to get Kiwis living in Oz to turn up to away games.

The away bay at Phoenix home games isn’t exactly full of Australians

I guess a difference is we do represent a whole country (and half of NSW soon)

Founder

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Doloras wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
ballane wrote:

One other point seriously do some of you think Aussies will turn up in Sydney to watch a Kiwi based team. Not going to happen I'm afraid. Can't say expats will because they havnt turned up in great numbers so far.

Aussies turn up to watch a Kiwi team play football every second weeks already.

One thing Aussies always point out about the Phoenix is that it totally fails to get Kiwis living in Oz to turn up to away games.

Well PM Muldoon dryly stated once, that Kiwis moving to Australia, improved the IQ of both countries. 

The Warriors and all the Super Rugby teams get a huge amount of support, from expat Kiwis living there.

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

can't believe that people are actually arguing the merits of this


Auckland will rise once more

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

can't believe that people are actually arguing the merits of this

*people on here

Founder

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

I love the Off Season!

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

can't believe that people are actually arguing the merits of this

It's not like we can argue the merits or otherwise of the new coach and his new signings.

Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

Is SKY Sports going to pay more for the A-League rights this up coming season to help meet the metrics? I read somewhere on 442 that its probably unlikely due to the FFA unable to off load the FTA rights and channel 10 got them for free. The TV deal is a big part of the metrics so did Rob or Welnix say anything about it lately??. $250k is pretty low for TV rights compared to what NRL Warriors bring in.

Mr Positive

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Royz wrote:

Is SKY Sports going to pay more for the A-League rights this up coming season to help meet the metrics? I read somewhere on 442 that its probably unlikely due to the FFA unable to off load the FTA rights and channel 10 got them for free. The TV deal is a big part of the metrics so did Rob or Welnix say anything about it lately??. $250k is pretty low for TV rights compared to what NRL Warriors bring in.

The better question is how little do fox pay NZ Rugby (sky) for the NZ super games. is their a cross subsidy? Also add on to Sky's 300K they pay Fox, the production cost of the Nix home games. (And VAR cameras)

  Supporter For Ever - Keep The Faith - Foundation Member - Never Lets FAX Get In The Way Of A Good Yarn

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

Interesting article on financiers for Gold Coast's proposed bid.

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/us-investors-behin...

I note a number of the have expansion bidders, are proposing funding opportunities from overseas (Hong Kong, China, USA etc). 

Some of the existing Australian A League clubs have/did have foreign owners.

Why is it that NZ football struggles for overseas investment (Mr Handa excepted). Too small a market?

Surely it makes more sense for the Phoenix Rising backers to sponsor Wellington Phoenix rather than GC United!

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
coochiee wrote:

Interesting article on financiers for Gold Coast's proposed bid.

https://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/us-investors-behin...

I note a number of the have expansion bidders, are proposing funding opportunities from overseas (Hong Kong, China, USA etc). 

Some of the existing Australian A League clubs have/did have foreign owners.

Why is it that NZ football struggles for overseas investment (Mr Handa excepted). Too small a market?

Surely it makes more sense for the Phoenix Rising backers to sponsor Wellington Phoenix rather than GC United!

I think small countries struggle in that aspect in general, if the sponsorship is not tied to some other tangible deals.

Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Colvinator wrote:

I'm sad we haven't had one good season for many years, and the crowd figures show it. Having one good season, making playoffs comfortably etc would boost the attendances hugely, and has flow on effects the next year. 

It just hasn't happened for us for a whole season unfortunately for a long time. One awesome half season! Can't blame the owners, or a particular manager I don't think, just sport sometimes works that way.

Sport is frustrating.

To substantiate this point, according to an article I read this morning the Hurricanes have boosted their average attendance by almost 7000 people after they started playing well consistently. If the Nix can have a couple of consistent seasons results wise, the 10k metric shouldn't be too far off by the end of it.

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
ballane wrote:

So some of you are happy taking an under performing team to Sydney to help meet the metrics. Anyone want to enlighten us as just how that's going to friggen help when no one turns up. Fudge me

Sure.  

Play a home WSW or Sydney FC game in Sydney.  Get all of their home supporters turning up and 20 YF stalwarts.

Metrics win.  

Either do a deal with WSW/FC on match receipts share or arrange our own ground and take all receipts.  .  

Financial win.

Tell the team that when they start to fudging win and can start to pull a half decent crowd at home they can come back to NZ. 

Motivational win.

Edit - answering Doloras' point below:

Do this for the Auckland games that most of us would miss anyway and no-one in Auckland would turn up for anyway.

(All half in jest)

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

By the above logic, we should play all our games at QBE until they start to fudging win

I for one endorse this plan!


Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Doloras wrote:

By the above logic, we should play all our games at QBE until they start to fudging win

I for one endorse this plan!

As good an incentive as any to win matches!

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
djtim3000 wrote:
Colvinator wrote:

I'm sad we haven't had one good season for many years, and the crowd figures show it. Having one good season, making playoffs comfortably etc would boost the attendances hugely, and has flow on effects the next year. 

It just hasn't happened for us for a whole season unfortunately for a long time. One awesome half season! Can't blame the owners, or a particular manager I don't think, just sport sometimes works that way.

Sport is frustrating.

To substantiate this point, according to an article I read this morning the Hurricanes have boosted their average attendance by almost 7000 people after they started playing well consistently. If the Nix can have a couple of consistent seasons results wise, the 10k metric shouldn't be too far off by the end of it.

  That's the Hurricanes really don't see how after a couple if consistant seasons you expect us to be averaging 10000. Think its going to take a bit more than that saday.

GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
ballane wrote:
djtim3000 wrote:
Colvinator wrote:

I'm sad we haven't had one good season for many years, and the crowd figures show it. Having one good season, making playoffs comfortably etc would boost the attendances hugely, and has flow on effects the next year. 

It just hasn't happened for us for a whole season unfortunately for a long time. One awesome half season! Can't blame the owners, or a particular manager I don't think, just sport sometimes works that way.

Sport is frustrating.

To substantiate this point, according to an article I read this morning the Hurricanes have boosted their average attendance by almost 7000 people after they started playing well consistently. If the Nix can have a couple of consistent seasons results wise, the 10k metric shouldn't be too far off by the end of it.

  That's the Hurricanes really don't see how after a couple if consistant seasons you expect us to be averaging 10000. Think its going to take a bit more than that saday.

I think you underestimate NZ sports fans and the power of the bandwagon. It's not a coincidence that outside of the first season, the next three seasons with the highest average attendances are those the Nix finished 4th. At one point in 2014/15 the Nix had won 6 home games in a row, with the 6th game at Westpac having over 10,000 in attendance, things would have probably kicked on from there if the team hadn't moved to the Hutt for the next three games. There's no reason to think that two seasons of decent results wouldn't get the crowds back.

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
ballane wrote:
djtim3000 wrote:
Colvinator wrote:

I'm sad we haven't had one good season for many years, and the crowd figures show it. Having one good season, making playoffs comfortably etc would boost the attendances hugely, and has flow on effects the next year. 

It just hasn't happened for us for a whole season unfortunately for a long time. One awesome half season! Can't blame the owners, or a particular manager I don't think, just sport sometimes works that way.

Sport is frustrating.

To substantiate this point, according to an article I read this morning the Hurricanes have boosted their average attendance by almost 7000 people after they started playing well consistently. If the Nix can have a couple of consistent seasons results wise, the 10k metric shouldn't be too far off by the end of it.

  That's the Hurricanes really don't see how after a couple if consistant seasons you expect us to be averaging 10000. Think its going to take a bit more than that saday.

Yep - to get anywhere near that 10,000 level of average crowd then somehow, greater levels of interest in attending live football matches have to be generated in the Wellington population. Not only that, to get near the 10,000, those greater levels have to be higher than those currently generated in pretty much any of the other centres hosting A-League teams. Wellington will have to have a cultural shift to get way more football mad than pretty much anywhere else in Australasia. 

So its going to take a bunch of some fairly special things happening that go beyond just the nix winning more games. That just appears to be the way it is with live sport these days. Crowds are hard. 

But if somehow if more of the very big grass roots interest in football - as evidenced by the its dominantly high and growing participation rates in junior sport (including both boys and girls) - could be somehow activated into more attendance - then maybe we might start getting somewhere serious. This does mean more thinking about families and kids. Like it or not they are where the biggest football-related numbers are. Some more strategies to get to adults through their kids might be a good start. Here's a couple of thoughts.....

While it might seem to short-term thinking bean counters that the ticket revenues might dip a little at first, how about all kids free for all games for a start? Long term it may be a net winner. Westpac and Welnix must already know this. I know they've tried a few different things for making Westpac more fun for kids like bouncy castles etc, but that one high-profile cost-reduction focused thing as a standard setting would seem to cut out one big attendance barrier straight away and also send a strong signal to the community (and better PR perhaps - maybe that is wishful thinking but you never know). Hell why not start trying stuff like this seriously.

How about a nix kindy-type setup at the stadium so the really little ones can be covered and their paying parents freed up? Who knows what might work. If we want to try getting towards  a 10,000 average in 2 years we need a lot of innovation.

That is just a couple of ideas and there are probably hassles with them, and we'd need a lot of new and different things to be happening so why not try? What else could we add to a basket of things to get more people through the gates? Any bright ideas? It would take a lot of different angles all probably only achieving small individual gains, but when they start adding up who knows? 

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

Don't think I'm under estimating them at all. Even given those good seasons we couldn't average 10000. Yes we might be able to get there but it's going to take more than just a couple of consistant seasons. Don't think you can blame the move to Hutt Rec as the reason for not getting the numbers either. Seem to recall some pretty mediocre performances being put on around that time.


GET YOUR SHIRTS OFF FOR THE BOYS

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History

What about every school in the area receives $2 from the Nix for each of their kids that goes to games.

If the schools see a potential financial benefit for them , they may be keen to organise large groups of kids to attend, which will also bring their parents along. The increased gates help pay the outlay to the schools. Ie its a school fundraiser to go support the Nix.

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Cantrun7 wrote:

What about every school in the area receives $2 from the Nix for each of their kids that goes to games.

If the schools see a potential financial benefit for them , they may be keen to organise large groups of kids to attend, which will also bring their parents along. The increased gates help pay the outlay to the schools. Ie its a school fundraiser to go support the Nix.

Good idea. Schools (and pre-schools) are great at fundraising and will try anything. Lets hope this is the start of a few more good ideas. You never know - one or a few of them together might kick on. 

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almost 8 years ago · edited about 5 years ago · History
Gordinho wrote:
Cantrun7 wrote:

What about every school in the area receives $2 from the Nix for each of their kids that goes to games.

If the schools see a potential financial benefit for them , they may be keen to organise large groups of kids to attend, which will also bring their parents along. The increased gates help pay the outlay to the schools. Ie its a school fundraiser to go support the Nix.

Good idea. Schools (and pre-schools) are great at fundraising and will try anything. Lets hope this is the start of a few more good ideas. You never know - one or a few of them together might kick on. 

Wouldn't a single home semi-final, following a successful season, fill the cake tin? Didn't our playoffs game in Wgton a few seasons back almost fill it? Seems to me that a bumper crowd like that would really up the averages and do wonders for the metrics. 

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