Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA

Well said 2B.

 Never happened Cosimo

 OK, so back to my earlier argument - do the Breakers attract more publicity (radio, TV news etc) because they are more successful, or perhaps because they are seen as an Auckland team (therefore more newsworthy)? Same with Warriors? Apart from the core fan groups (i.e. the season ticket holders) i think New Zealand sporting public tends to be fickle, so the strategy of creating a greater media coverage makes people think the team must be "really popular" which in turn attracts even more publicity.

Are the owners of the Breakers or the Warriors more media-savvy than WelNix?

Or, is there something to do with more media coverage because the above two teams both have "New Zealand" prefix in their names? 

 3) They have a media despartment that get Breakers stories out there.

Although for me 2) is the clincher.

1) was even discussed on CGW the other week, Mark asking why they hadn't got any stories about the Highlanders Pre-season and it was pretty much "Do you know how much it costs to send a reporter down there"

If you watched 3 News in early January you would've thought that only the Blues were in pre-season training, they were the only Super Rugby team that got any coverage at all, and that's in "our national game."

 Would it stand as an argument then that a potential franchise in Auckland would now be more successful (in terms of publicity) than the Kingz or Knights used to be because there is a precedent of Breakers/Warriors in place? I am not counting here the factors like access to the Eden Park or cost of the tickets. And  I know that there is no money for a second franchise in NZ. I am just puzzled about low publicity for The Nix on the telly.

low publicity = its football/soccer not bball, rugby, netball blah blah, the population in auckland isn't interested in Soccer, which is half the population of the country.

Auckland is the powerhouse of "coal-face" football, particularly for women. ACFC vs Y-Tak got 3000. What are the numbers like for ASBPrem in Wellington? True, Auckland wasn't interested in the Knights, and I don't blame 'em.

ok, so where were the auckland fopotball fans against Perth???

There were about 10,000 of them at Eden Park. Also, it could be that Auckland isn't interested in the Phoenix. And really, could you blame then right now?

 Crowd : 1876

My mistake, News, I was believing what alireggae said on this forum, which was retarded of me at best. :) But my point stands - almost 2,000 to see an amateur game. What numbers do you get in Welly?

We counted 200 at the last game. You and Smithy are right, Auckland is where it's at.

As I say, especially in the women's game, because there's pressure on all the good young players to move to AKL if they want to be considered for the Football Ferns / high level coaching. And, let's face it, if I had stayed in Wellington I don't think I could have ever gotten motivated to get up on a Sunday morning in winter...

But anyway, this is precisely why we must remain the Wellington Phoenix. So much of the current fanbase are motivated by Wellington having its own Trans-Tasman team, while the Warriors and Breakers are in Auckland. If the relationship with Wellington is severed then all that goes down the tubes. A NZ team which just happens to play at the RoF will simply not have that "screw the JAFAs" appeal to the Welly masses.

 thing is even Aucklanders think Aucklanders are a bunch of dicks. That's why we like to support the Phoenix. 

I can't see any story as compelling as Terry and the 'Nix coming out of Auckland. Eden Park is an ok venue, but a really busy one. Great location wise, but not great competing with Super 12, cricket etc. And bludy expensive I should think.

I'm not so necessarily sure that Auckland is where its at with regards to the amateur game. Let me give you a different thought:

Auckland teams with the Premiership. This can also be born out in a saying 'Success breeds success'

Why do players move to Auckland? Cause they want to win. Why do they want to win? Cause the teams they are at do not. If Team Wellington had won 4 of the 8 seasons, would the crowds be at 200? Probably not. Would players move to Wellington to play for them? More than likely. Why do players follow Wayne Bennett? Because his teams invariably win. If a different team for the 1st time in 8 years pinches and O League spot, what do you think will happen to one of the Auckland sides?

The simple answer to all of this is that winning attracts people. 2002 basketball champs, Americas Cup wins, rugby WC, 2010 WC South Africa. Teams that win, attract spectators, followers and people that want to be involved with it.

The Phoenix are not currently successful and thus, not many people are really giving a shit and I'll refer to those as the casual observers that turn up when we are winning and no other time or those at out of town venues that can't be bothered spending cash to watch their teams get @ss raped (or people that live in Auckland and have a team in play in their own backyard)

heart sign

well said, this is where GM's comments about not caring about making the finals series astounds me, the extra exposure the potential to fill a stadium at home - if we get into top four - the excitement next season as we yet again build on another finals appearnce.

I've touched on this before but I feel like getting into it a bit more, so here goes. Apologies for repeating stuff from earlier a bit.

Running a football club as a business is the key thing here. None of these owners are willing to accept long-term losses so the club has to break even eventually at least, or maybe turn a profit. In order to have a profitable business income must be greater than expenditure.Simple stuff! Clearly the way you move from being unprofitable to profitable is through increasing income relative to expenditure.

So, what are the club's income streams? Ticket sales, sponsorship, merchandise sales, TV revenue, selling players. (I'm unsure if food and drink sales on matchdays goes to the club or the stadium, but it can be included in ticket sales anyway for the sake of this argument)

And what are the costs? Wages for both playing and non-playing staff, stadium hire, travel, training ground hire, training ground equipment, signing on fees and transfer fees from buying players, advertising for matches and season tickets. Aside from stadium hire and travel, all these costs should be considered capital in the sense that putting more into them should result in greater ticket sales, greater merchandise sales, and consequently higher sponsorship deals. If you are investing in young players in terms of wages and training then you might also increase income from transfers as well. At least that's the theory.

Is this true though? How much difference in income does a difference in expenditure/investment result in? What drives ticket sales and merchandise sales? Is it purely results? Is it exciting football? Or is it the "brand", which may be partly influenced by results and style of football but also by the way the club in general is perceived by the public?

I reckon it's the brand. It's the ability for the public to feel like they are in some engaged with the club, that the club means something to them.  Obviously everyone on this website feels like the Phoenix means something to them but how many other people do? Even if it's not the brand though, surely there is a need for some seriousness market research by the club about now if they want to treat this operation as a business. Interview people in Wellington who are fans and who aren't and get their impressions of the club. Ask people who go to games why they go. Ask people who don't go what might make them go. Ask people who are going to Phoenix games in Auckland or Dunedin if they would go again or if they only came once for the novelty. Maybe then the club can actually know if it's ticket prices, stadium food, the weather, results, lack of engagement, kickoff times, style of football, or something random which is keeping the crowds down. And once you know, then you can develop a strategy for addressing these issues. Maybe they will find that a high profile marquee might pay for himself with ticket and shirt sales. Who knows?

Some of what Welnix is doing may improve the brand of the club, like bringing in more kiwi players and training up kiwi youngsters. This might make the public feel like it is more "their" team. Other stuff they are doing might not help the brand - uncle Gareth's cat crusade and general lack of grace in the media (whether he's been misrepresented or not, I think we can all agree that he could have chosen a better way to make his point about the club's longterm goals and attitudes of fans). Worryingly, there seems to be no coherent branding strategy from the club. Is it a Wellington team or a New Zealand team? Is gameday at the stadium a fun family environment or a rowdy afternoon out with the lads? 

Aside from all this though, how realistic is it to have a self-sustaining or profitable football team in New Zealand? In 2010-11 only four EPL teams made a profit, and that's in the most high profile league in the world. Manchester United had an income of US$459m in 2010 and still only made a 12million pound profit for the 2010-2011 financial year. Granted, they are heavily indebted due to the way the Glazer's paid for the club, but only 3 other teams turned a profit that year too. Newcastle pretty much only turned a profit because they managed to con Liverpool into paying 35million pounds for Andy Carroll.Yes, wages and transfer fees are much higher in the EPL than the HAL but so are all the income streams as well. 

Effectively, rich guys owning teams and pouring heaps and heaps of money in has made football as an industry exist in a state of perpetual losses. No competition globally is insulated from competition for players from other competitions, and players go where they get paid more (generally). Good players cost clubs more than the money they make through success if the club does well with very few exceptions. A club trying to break even (and in the HAL, not utilising the marquee space in the salary cap system) will be not be able to afford players who are as good as the clubs who are haemorrhaging money can afford. With worse players comes worse results. If the Phoenix came last for a few consecutive seasons, how badly would income suffer? It MIGHT be sustainable to field a team of Fentons, Boyds, and Lindsays, and play games at Newtown Park but for how long would the FFA let the club hang around if it was doing that and losing every week?

So after that ramble, my point is this: while I admit I don't know the details of Welnix's master plan, I have serious doubts that the club can be self-sustaining. And if Welnix honestly expect to be self-sustaining, then they may well be delusional about the business they have got into. And if they are delusional about it where does that leave the future of the club? Constantly cutting costs and losing ground on every other team in the league would be my guess. And I don't want that to happen.

People will leap to the defence of the owners and say things like "if it wasn't for them we wouldn't have a club" - well, that's true insofar as they took over from Terry when no one else seemed like they were willing to. But does that mean we shouldn't question the direction they are taking the club in, or wish for an owner or owners who are passionate about football and therefore understand the industry they are in. I'm a WELLINGTON PHOENIX fan, and I want a club that will win titles. I don't want a club that's giving up on winning for the sake of saving money.  That's what  I fear the endgame of this Welnix master plan is. I really hope I'm proven wrong but I struggle to see how that could be if they continue to talk about breaking even, making a profit, being self-sustaining, etc. Maybe UEFA's financial fairplay thingy will balance out the discrepancy between wage costs and incomes in global football but I really doubt that'll happen either. 

That might be overly pessimistic but it's how I feel. Hopefully we can get a team of talented kiwi kids and seasoned journeymen and get results while making a bit off money turning over youngsters to European clubs but even for kiwi youth you are competing with so many other pathways to pro-football, and as much as training facilities and coaches might make a difference that's really just a lottery that the youngsters you produce will be superior to what the Aussie teams have on their rosters of senior players.

Net result: I want Welnix to change their tune about the clubs goals or at least admit that it's extremely unlikely to have a self-sustaining business model in the football industry, or I want a new owner(s) who is willing to foot the losses. Yes, I'm greedy! But if I had a hundred million dollars or so I'd buy the club and take the losses as I'm sure a lot of you would too - so we just need a fan who's incredibly rich! Quick, everyone start buying tickets in those massive American and European lotteries...

If we are making losses of $1million, the new TV deal that comes into affect next season should cover that or just about all of it.

well said Barry - football clubs do not make money - end of, to buy one and expect it to be profitable, espcially in the a-league, is dumb. If the welnix team want to make money from the nix then they need to increase crowd numbers, or increase the amount of money they get from sponsors - theya re possibly the two easiest and most obvious factors to more income - how do you achieve both - start winning consistantly and win some titles.

This is the last season of the players current CBA, they will be pushing for a higher salary cap I would think. So that will eat away some of the new TV deal.

People and Welnix need to go take a good look at the numbers that have attended our games over the years.In doing so take a few things into consideration forget the 1st season that was as much about the novelty factor.Then ignore the one offs away from Wellington and the finals games.

The numbers attending has never got to 10k on a regular basis,so just why it should be expected to do so with our current situation buggars me.If Welnix think turning it into a travelling circus or removing Wellington from the name is going to be the magical fix im afraid they are in La La land.

Its going to require winning regularly and turning the ROF into the fortress it once was,i doubt that playing the elusive "total football" would do much if its not turned into wins..

Sadly for Welnix to do either of these things is going to require a loosening of the purse strings as if they think they are going to be able to compete with other teams on the cheap then im afraid that Toilet seat wont be residing here any time soon.

At work, at the beach, playing summer sport.

Here I go again ....... play at a stupid time, you get the crowd you deserve no matter how much you waste on marketing.

 Some good points there Barry Z

Especially about the market research which according to Gareth is his way of operating. getting to know a situation well and making decisions out of the resulting knowledge. I wonder if he has done it yet, or done enough. Any one on here been approached for their thoughts (officially) ??