Wellington Phoenix Men

R8 vs WSW, Sunday 1 Dec, 5 pm

523 replies · 31,829 views
over 12 years ago
Marius Lacatus wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
f.barisi wrote:

I dont think I'm going to offer anything new this long running debate Pat.  However, I'm previously on record as saying I dont expect DMs to pass like Micheal Laudrap - Much of Lia's critcisms seem to focus on this aspect of his game.  I think he's unable to play the full 95.  I think around 10mins into second half he fades badly, and his ability to fullfill the basic DM role is compromised.  He get's caught far to high up the pitch.  I dont think he screens, slows transitions well at all.  In last weeks game, at around the 55 min mark, there was a moment which highlights this:  Sydney in the middle third looking to play in a wide left player, Lia arrives late to his area, sees but fails to screen a simple pass to his man on the inside.  Just watch him tracking back like some ole lumoxy pack horse... etc.

You don't add anything to the long running debate by simply insulting him. You actually touched on an aspect of his play that I hadn't considered at all, I had only seen people moaning about him giving the ball away. I guess having Manny next to him hides the fact that he doesn't screen well, perhaps?

I have a high level of tolerance for Lia-bagging, because he sits at the heart of our limitations as a fluid and incisive team and has done for numerous seasons, because his continued presence is a blight on the club and it's failure to recruit, and because his selection says we have a coach repeatedly and stubbornly prepared to select the mediocrity he knows, rather than try something else. he wouldnt pick up a contract with anyone else, and shouldn't be good enough for us. And what's more, there is no potential left in him to uncover. He has played countless matches, with performances ranging from awful to average. He has nothing more to offer we haven't seen, and there is demonstrably nothing to lose in dropping him ... yet week after week ...


Yes, he will have the odd avg match, and we will even win some despite his presence, but that won't justify his selection.



Even playing his best game on the weekend for a long time he still came up with no goals, no assists, and still gets a nosebleed if he gets in the final third.  Someone said further back that his pass competion of 75% is ok.  It definitely is not ok considering how many balls he plays square or back.  He tries hard, there's no question of commitment, he's just not good enough

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago

Poor Vinnie. I wonder if he reads these forums.

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over 12 years ago

Doubt it. He'd be long gone by now if he did! 


Allegedly

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over 12 years ago

It's quite strange reading comments like "He wouldn't pick up a contract anywhere else" and "He's just not good enough". Hell, have you guys been watching the A League recently? It's chock full of aging journeymen, underachieving imports, once-promising-now-fading juniors and all manner of mediocrities. They are the life blood of the league!




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over 12 years ago
Outpost wrote:

(...)  Hell, have you guys been watching the A League recently? It's chock full of aging journeymen, underachieving imports, once-promising-now-fading juniors and all manner of mediocrities. They are the life blood of the league!

True, I have not watched Melbourne Heart recently, where all the above applies.

Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days

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over 12 years ago

Yep in a salary cap league, you're always going to have guys like that in a team. 


Allegedly

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over 12 years ago
Tegal wrote:

Yep in a salary cap league, you're always going to have guys like that in a team. 


The issue is that after 7 years you'd think someone might have noticed he wasn't up to it and moved him on

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago

That might just happen if Reira can pinch his spot. 


Allegedly

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over 12 years ago
james dean wrote:
Tegal wrote:

Yep in a salary cap league, you're always going to have guys like that in a team. 


The issue is that after 7 years you'd think someone might have noticed he wasn't up to it and moved him on

Ricki wanted to pick him for the All Whites, that shows what he thought of the NZ options to replace him.

Lia isn't a top class player, that is why he is still in the A-League but he does a solid job for the team. He is far from the worst player we have ever had on our books. I do agree that for what he probably earns, we should expect better but that isn't his fault for accepting Terry money.

Lia is the last foundation player at the club, and possibly last person in the organisation (Russell Gray maybe?). He deserves a little more respect than some people on here give him.
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over 12 years ago
Ryan's Rovers wrote:
james dean wrote:
Tegal wrote:

Yep in a salary cap league, you're always going to have guys like that in a team. 


The issue is that after 7 years you'd think someone might have noticed he wasn't up to it and moved him on

Ricki wanted to pick him for the All Whites, that shows what he thought of the NZ options to replace him.

Lia isn't a top class player, that is why he is still in the A-League but he does a solid job for the team. He is far from the worst player we have ever had on our books. I do agree that for what he probably earns, we should expect better but that isn't his fault for accepting Terry money.

Lia is the last foundation player at the club, and possibly last person in the organisation (Russell Gray maybe?). He deserves a little more respect than some people on here give him.

He's only still in the A-League because we continue to pay him to be there!!  I think he's a top man but the reason we are where we are (coming off finishing last and without a win this season - i.e. quite bad) is that we haven't gone through the regular squad rejuvenation that other sides have.   
This isn't about what Riki thought of him vs the AWs, he included ASBP players and unattached players in the All Whites and it's not about what he's being paid vs what he delivering.  If we want better results we need better players and we've seen over 7 seasons that he's ok, but we're not going to go to the next level with players of his level starting every week.  In the end, you have to start trying other options if you're going to improve

Normo's coming home

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over 12 years ago

I blame Ricki for everything, football related or not!


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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
f.barisi wrote:

Jeff, (and we know we can't call you sonny right:)) am I right it saying you and I both absolutely agree that by Lia's personal standards he has been less substandard than usual?  The only reason he starts seems to be because Ernie wont change too many in the starting line up at once which is exasperating but probably correct.  I'm also assuming you and I both know that Lia wouldn't make any other A league side, and many State sides for that matter.

Shininury? Ohno!!! was nice.

How do I feel about Lia as a player?

At the start of the season, I was adamant that what we had in Manny and Lia would get exposed. We then signed Riera whom to me, doesn't give anything that Manny or Lia do not and then Hicks whom is not really a DM.
My opinion has changed a little I think. The first 3 games in, I thought Lia was decidedly average. It was then pointed out about some things Lia was doing and in Game 4, I decided to pay particular attention to him e.g, what kind of pass he received and how many opponents were on him and that was actually an interesting exercise. I think in games 4, 5, and 6, he has been better than the 1st 3 and also at any stage of last season. His form doesn't make me go 'Our DM spot is solved' but I see more from him than I anticipated. On the basis that the guy is performing, I don't see why there is calls to drop him when the alternative (Riera) does not bring anything different than Lia. Riera passes sideways or backwards and doesn't really like a tackle ala Manny. So on that basis, I am happy for Lia to stay in there in part because he is 'performing' and the alternatives are not any better. I do think the club needs to keep searching for upgrades because we wont go up a level with him still there.

I think Lia may start in a couple of other sides but you are really only talking the likes of the teams that play similar to us (e.g. not CCM, Roar, WSW, Victory) 

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
james dean wrote:
He's only still in the A-League because we continue to pay him to be there!!  I think he's a top man but the reason we are where we are (coming off finishing last and without a win this season - i.e. quite bad) is that we haven't gone through the regular squad rejuvenation that other sides have.   

This isn't about what Riki thought of him vs the AWs, he included ASBP players and unattached players in the All Whites and it's not about what he's being paid vs what he delivering.  If we want better results we need better players and we've seen over 7 seasons that he's ok, but we're not going to go to the next level with players of his level starting every week.  In the end, you have to start trying other options if you're going to improve

He still has a contract because Ricki couldn't sign anyone better. Whether he has a contract next year depends on if Ernie thinks he can find better. Until then he is our best option for the role he is playing.

Do we need better? Yes. Do we have better? No

We have 3 very different DM's in Manny, Riera and Lia. Dropping Lia for Riera completely changes the way the midfield will operate, as both Manny and Riera tend to get nose bleeds when they cross the half way line. If we had Tim Brown or Chris James on our books, then Lia would be back to being the squad filler people want but last I checked we have neither.
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over 12 years ago
ballane wrote:
patrick478 wrote:
f.barisi wrote:

...and just a reminder, to Mr Vader, et al, who think Lia is now scaling new heights of personal performance:  Lia is mindbogglingly minging. 

Care to back that up with some explanation, as per rule #4?  http://www.yellowfever.co.nz/categories/wellington-phoenix-discussion/topics/forum-rules-and-regulations


FFS just as leggy says.Great to see your all still being selective.Im guessing its okay for you to post what you want then just remove it later.

Seems rule 4 is applied very liberally or more to the point selectively,some of the crap thats been posted about some All Whites players with little all no sanction.Then again seems to have become a case of whos dick you suck the last couple of years.

.   

If you see something that you think is in violation of the rules, use the report button that is now available on all posts. It's there for a reason.

Yellow Fever - Misery loves company

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over 12 years ago
Ryan's Rovers wrote:
james dean wrote:
He's only still in the A-League because we continue to pay him to be there!!  I think he's a top man but the reason we are where we are (coming off finishing last and without a win this season - i.e. quite bad) is that we haven't gone through the regular squad rejuvenation that other sides have.   

This isn't about what Riki thought of him vs the AWs, he included ASBP players and unattached players in the All Whites and it's not about what he's being paid vs what he delivering.  If we want better results we need better players and we've seen over 7 seasons that he's ok, but we're not going to go to the next level with players of his level starting every week.  In the end, you have to start trying other options if you're going to improve

He still has a contract because Ricki couldn't sign anyone better. Whether he has a contract next year depends on if Ernie thinks he can find better. Until then he is our best option for the role he is playing.

Do we need better? Yes. Do we have better? No

We have 3 very different DM's in Manny, Riera and Lia. Dropping Lia for Riera completely changes the way the midfield will operate, as both Manny and Riera tend to get nose bleeds when they cross the half way line. If we had Tim Brown or Chris James on our books, then Lia would be back to being the squad filler people want but last I checked we have neither.
This.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago

This x 2

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History

If only we could have a player that wins the ball get can create stuff. 

I like tautologies because I like them.
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over 12 years ago

x3


Yellow Fever - Misery loves company

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over 12 years ago

Funny how Tim Brown was so invisible..... His goals and his work in the middle of the field. I would love to meet one person who would not want that back right about now (or at any point in time last year as well)

 

The reality is, for all the 'shitness' people say Tim Brown was, no one has been able to replace him.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago

I wouldn't want him back.

I like tautologies because I like them.
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over 12 years ago

I wouldn't want him back either.

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over 12 years ago

Could Boxall play in a DM role.. as a CB he'd probably be more defensively minded, but i guess the issue would be whether he could play with the game behind him as well as in front of him.

Yellow Whever Whanganui

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over 12 years ago

Ernie made that reference in preseason if I recall correctly (which invariably I don't).

E + R + O

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over 12 years ago
Marius Lacatus wrote:
(Lia's) selection says we have a coach repeatedly and stubbornly prepared to select the mediocrity he knows

Refreshing to see I'm not the only one Ernie-bashing!

Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009
This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads



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over 12 years ago

I miss browny and we miss his goals

I have an amazing ability to find my way out of mazes. I'm pathological. 
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over 12 years ago

Wouldn't want Brown back either.

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over 12 years ago

I miss Greenie.

#greenacrecoopsifillsandwich

"Phoenix till they lose"

Posting 97% bollox, 8% lies and 3.658% genuine opinion. 

Genuine opinion: FTFFA

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
Jeff Vader wrote:

Funny how Tim Brown was so invisible..... His goals and his work in the middle of the field. I would love to meet one person who would not want that back right about now (or at any point in time last year as well)

 

The reality is, for all the 'shitness' people say Tim Brown was, no one has been able to replace him.

I've said this before, our midfield was just as rubbish with him in it. 

Though he did hit some great form toward the end of his time here. 


Allegedly

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over 12 years ago
Tegal wrote:
Jeff Vader wrote:

Funny how Tim Brown was so invisible..... His goals and his work in the middle of the field. I would love to meet one person who would not want that back right about now (or at any point in time last year as well)

 

The reality is, for all the 'shitness' people say Tim Brown was, no one has been able to replace him.

I've said this before, our midfield was just as rubbish with him in it. 

Though he did hit some great form toward the end of his time here. 


yeah, against worst opposition. 
I like tautologies because I like them.
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over 12 years ago

Picking Ernie will go with the same line up again

                Moss

Fenton Dura Siggy Caira

     Hicks   Manny   Lia

                Carlos

         Brockie    Waffles


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over 12 years ago

I'd rather Kenny in there, if he's fully fit.

I like tautologies because I like them.
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over 12 years ago
Ryan's Rovers wrote:

Picking Ernie will go with the same line up again

                Moss

Fenton Dura Siggy Caira

     Hicks   Manny   Lia

                Carlos

         Brockie    Waffles

One thing I hate about that formation (with Lia and Hicks switched) is how we pressed against Perth with it. In the first half they just ran Carlos around at the back sapping his energy. I didn't notice the same thing from Sydney but they don't really play it around at the back as much or I guess we might have fixed it. I think Lia or Hicks have to push up more when we don't have the ball.

Personally I think Cunningham should be given another chance at starting after last weeks effort and Brockie benched. I wouldn't mind going back to a 4-2-3-1
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over 12 years ago

Brockie doubtful with a Hamstring injury

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History

I think you are more inclined to see Kenny in for Stein than Brockie with what you had Ryan. I think he needs to test this pace thing out because as we have established, Brockie and Stein do not work together.

Just saw your post SJ. Maybe it will be Brockie that sits.

Grumpy old bastard alert

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over 12 years ago
Jeff Vader wrote:

I think you are more inclined to see Kenny in for Stein than Brockie with what you had Ryan. I think he needs to test this pace thing out because as we have established, Brockie and Stein do not work together.

Just saw your post SJ. Maybe it will be Brockie that sits.


We may see Ifill come in for Stein in the second half.

Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days

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over 12 years ago
Junior82 wrote:

I miss Greenie.

#greenacrecoopsifillsandwich


*sadface*

"Ive just re-visited this and once again realised that C-Diddy is a genius - a drunk, Newcastle bred disgrace - but a genius." - Hard News, 11:39am 4th June 2009

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
Ryan's Rovers wrote:
james dean wrote:
He's only still in the A-League because we continue to pay him to be there!!  I think he's a top man but the reason we are where we are (coming off finishing last and without a win this season - i.e. quite bad) is that we haven't gone through the regular squad rejuvenation that other sides have.   

This isn't about what Riki thought of him vs the AWs, he included ASBP players and unattached players in the All Whites and it's not about what he's being paid vs what he delivering.  If we want better results we need better players and we've seen over 7 seasons that he's ok, but we're not going to go to the next level with players of his level starting every week.  In the end, you have to start trying other options if you're going to improve

He still has a contract because Ricki couldn't sign anyone better. Whether he has a contract next year depends on if Ernie thinks he can find better. Until then he is our best option for the role he is playing.

Do we need better? Yes. Do we have better? No

We have 3 very different DM's in Manny, Riera and Lia. Dropping Lia for Riera completely changes the way the midfield will operate, as both Manny and Riera tend to get nose bleeds when they cross the half way line. If we had Tim Brown or Chris James on our books, then Lia would be back to being the squad filler people want but last I checked we have neither.


agree completely in that we have 3 different DM's neither of them really offering much more than the other - this for mine is why Vinne gets the lifeline he does in regards to starting. I'm prepared to soften my 'get rid of him approach' given some of the reasoned discussion lately that has at least pointed out the good things he has done (although I still feel when his contract comes up he won't be here long). It irks me that after two years of apparently searching for a better midfielder to replace brown we have found noone. Whilst a lot of you were horribly anti brown for the fact he went missing in most games he did offer a box to box midfielder who created chances and scored goals which this current group of midfielder's are not doing. Reira is not the answer for mine as mentioned above he isn't an aggressive tackler and his passes are often backwards or across field. Lia gets caught with the ball, which is down to him receiving the ball when someone else might have been more open, he also loses th ball in critical places. Manny hasn't been at his best since he switched from DM to RB and back again. What's answer? only the coach knows but right now the three guys we have are not doing the job we need to them to do in order to provide the free flowing passing from the back football we are being lead to believe is the "way we play".

Queenslander 3x a year.

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over 12 years ago · edited over 12 years ago · History
ConanTroutman wrote:

I'll admit when I first suggested a lineup without Lia in it for this game I didn't clearly state why I thought he shouldn't play. But when I went back and did provide an argument (that I don't think he plays well against high-tempo pressing teams like WSW, and that he was clearly targeted as a weak link by them last time we played) the Lia defenders didn't respond or engage with the argument. Fine if you disagree with me but don't just gloss over an argument against him playing as "scapegoatism" because you disagree with it. 

Also, I agree that a lot of people on here do just say Lia sucks without really saying why they think that, as well as ignoring when he does do alright.


 

Agreed.  Any press and pace in the midfield tends to show Vinnie's weaknesses on the ball and chasing shadows.  But I tend to agree with those saying we still have no-one definitely better in the squad, and that he has played as well as I have seen him in the last couple of games.  The later is probably as much a complement to Ernie for getting more out of him.


I may be barking up the wrong tree, because I've only seen him play once, for just a half, against lower quality opposition, but if Alex Rufer can develop his ability to do a defensive shift alongside Manny we may get a home grown replacement for Lia by the end of the season.  In the pre-season at Kapiti I thought Rufer showed enough pace, did enough work tracking back, close marking and breaking up play in midfield to say he might be able to do the job as a good Vinnie upgrade.  Plus, clutching at straws a bit, Ernie is on record as saying Rufer could press for a starting spot this season.  With Carlos in the side I can't see anywhere else you'd fit Rufer in.  Any thoughts on that?  Might have to harden up a bit, but ...

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over 12 years ago

Hmm, playin the Wanderers....

There's a wanderer, there's wanderer, they just roam around, around, around





Masters Grade aint no run in the park on a Saturday...

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over 12 years ago

Good idea with rufer. But which weaker opposition? We've already drawn to perth n newcaslte and lost to bling.

I have an amazing ability to find my way out of mazes. I'm pathological. 
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