Transfer Conjecture (was Durante + Phillips)

Only thing in our favour is a change in lifestyle for a guy like that. I'm sure his old legs wouldn't mind only playing 20 odd games a year rather than 40 or 50...

Anyway, in other news the SMH is reporting that the Jets are going to break the bank to get Nathan Burns who is off contract at Adelaide.   Thoughts?

HN, I had feverish here for a weekend, that was enough!

Burns has been pretty sh*te this year but he's still a quality player. It's a bit too early for him to go overseas imo so it'll be good if he stays in the A-League.

With regard to the "sister club" idea, it's been tried and it rarely works because if you're a fringe player why would you want to go out of sight out of mind of the manager you're trying to impress to the other side of the world??

Ultimately, the Phoenix want to be as much a part of the wgtn (and NZ) sporting landscape as the hurricanes, the lions or the warriors, developing their own hardcore fan base. There are many fanatical phoenix fans who wouldn't class themselves as fanatical football fans, and that's the success of this year for the club.

Fair play, If I was Philiip's, I'd pay the Phoenix a million pounds to get out of the godforsaken pie eating regions of Smethick and Oldbury and move to Wellington.

Northern Spirit - Rangers, Perth - Leeds United, Kingz - Chelsea, knights - Charlton, now Perth - man City.

Northern Spirit in particular is a dozy considering Rangers pretty much totalled the club (in a similar vain to what Sky did with the Kingz).  Although they did get Ian Ferguson from it, once he was about 102 years old.

There have been others as well, and not one side in this part of the world has got anything out of these arrangements apart from having some prospects stolen (Leeds - Glory).

Axmfc, my point is that it's a great theory but the reality is completely different, rarely does the lower level club get anything out of it (see HN's examples above). And unless it is a top European club then the so called fringe players aren't going to be good nough, remember that the A-League clubs compete with the top J-League clubs in the Asian Champions League and on the whole were pretty competitive considerign tit is in our off season. We have no need for players who can't make a J-League side, plus all of these players are foreigners so we'd unlikely take someone like that on loan.

[quote: axmfc[/] What I envisage for the Phoenix would be a relationship of substance based on a Memorandum of Understanding, carefully managed and nutured, committing the parties to certain actions and performances resulting in a win-win situation. [quote[/]

When you have an inequality of bargaining power you are never going to have this type of arrangement, there just isn't enough in it for the other club. There are two interests, commercial opportunities and player opportunities. Commercially our market is too small for it to be a huge benefit for them, they may pick up a few extra fans but that's it. Players wise we're still a long way off developing players seeing as we have no reserves or academy. There's not enough in it for either party. james dean2008-01-10 13:23:42

Yes 07.  Glasgow Rangers purchased Northern Spirit in the old NSL and then dumped them leaving them with huge debt.  It's how Ferguson first came out here and why he is now coaching in the A-League.

The NSL was the A-League's predecessor.

Interesting

I didn't think clubs were allowed to own other clubs, I thought their were Fifa regulations stopping that sort of thing?

Did the NSL not qualify for some reason under these rules?

I think you can't own two clubs who play in the same competition, but there is no outright prohibition, for example I think Sheffield United own a team in CHina called the Shanghai Blades.

craig moore was once captain of rangers a few seasons ago but got kicked out coz he put country 1st, club 2nd when we had a big champs league qualifier, that was in 2004 and he went to newcastle that year and then over to queensland. he was a brilliant player with rangers, he woulda still been there if it werent for that situation.

Might be a continent thing then, I'm pretty sure you can't own 2 clubs in Europe and South America.

I'm assuming it has to be impossible for them play each other in a Fifa competition such as World Club Championship?

Yes, 2 clubs both being eligible for UEFA competitions would I assume be prohibitive. Theoretically every club (bar thePhoenix) is eligible for the World Club Cup though...but yes, not sure how it would work if they ever had to play eac other.

Back when the NSL existed there was no club World Cup, so probably not a risk.

Incidentally, i'm sure i read somewhere that the Welsh teams in English leagues could not qualify for Europe, therefore can not qualify for the CWC.

Well there you go, you learn something every day.

This is from the China Daily

England's Sheffield United has bought a 90 percent stake in China's Chengdu Five Bull, becoming the first foreign club to acquire a team in the struggling Chinese professional leagues.

No I'm pretty sure they can, only a couple of seasons Liverpool played one in Champions league qualifying, I think it may have been the season they won it? And I think Bangor have played a few times in the UEFA cup?

I'll try to find out

Good old Wikkipedia

European competition

The champions of the Welsh Premiership qualify, along with the champions of every European domestic league, for the UEFA Champions League. The second placed team qualifies for the UEFA Cup with a place in the Intertoto Cup going to the third placed team in the league. A place in the Uefa Cup is also awarded to the winners of the Welsh Cup. If the winners of the Welsh Cup have already qualified for Europe via their league placing (e.g. finishing first and winning the Cup) the third placed team inherits the UEFA Cup spot, and the Intertoto spot passes on to the fourth placed league side.

Results in Europe have been mixed-some notable successes, such as Barry Town's run to the first round proper of the UEFA Cup, drawing 3-3 with Aberdeen F.C. at Jenner Park, and Barry's 3-1 victory over FC Porto in the UEFA Champions League, combined with some heavy defeats, such as TNS' 12-1 aggregate defeat to Amica Wronki of Poland.

The aforementioned Barry Town have been by some way the most successful Welsh side in Europe in the league's 15-year history, winning a total of six games in Europe.

In recent times results in Europe have generally improved vastly, where in the past Welsh sides had been on the wrong end of some heavy scorelines, all Welsh sides now enter Europe with the realistic aim of at least winning their first round tie. In the last two years particularly European results have been good, with Rhyl F.C., Carmarthen Town and Llanelli A.F.C. all enjoying success.

Yeah that's welsh teams playing in wales. HN is meaning welsh teams playing in England like Cardiff

Sorry I should read more carefully.

I'm pretty sure Welsh sides in England can play in Europe, as they are English FA affiliated and regarded as English clubs.

Its not likely that this will ever (or has been) be put to the test though.

You make some good points JD.  And if we look at such a possible arrangement on a player basis only you could be right - there might not be enough of a win-win situation because of the huge ability gap between the UK/Europe and the A-League.  But could the Phoenix also benefit in other ways?  Operating a football club is about much more than just the players directly.  For example, there could be opportunities for Ricki and his coaching team to access / have exposure to the latest coaching methods, fitness/nutrition regimes and playing tactics, from youth level (I really hope we get a team into the proposed A-youth league) and up, as well as new approaches to player rehabilitation following injuries etc.  Another example might be learning how best to market / promote the game as well as other commercial aspects of running a pro football club.  Additionally, to even up the stakes in the arrangement, the sister club could be required to play one or two pre-season games in NZ.  The right club would likely attract good crowds, certainly in Wellington, thus earning important revenue for both clubs as well as generally giving football a higher profile in NZ. Perhaps games could also be arranged in Australia on the way over or back to increase revenues and promotion of the A-League.  Or, maybe a pre-season tournament could be held in Wellington involving the foreign club and a couple of Aussie clubs. 

I'm sure Ricki will visit clubs in the off season, I just don't think in the situation you describe there is anything in it at all for the "big club".

Anyway I agree on the youth league, I think it could be the single most important thing fr the future of New Zealand soccer, not just the Phoenix. Imagine New Zealand's best playing regularly together with the possibility of being elevated to the senior phoenix squad at any time or being picked up by Australian A-League clubs. Funding for that is an absolute must!!

Apologies HN, you are right Welsh sides in the English leagues aren't allowed to play in Europe.

There's a whole thread on the 606 forum with the Welsh moaning about it.

You learn something new every day aye?

i would like to think for the sake of oceania football as there are plenty of talented kids from the solomans and fiji that would also benifit a nix youth side, then you will get that flow on affect back to nzfc clubs and then back to their own nations lifting the overall level in due time

Hmm, would be interesting to see whethr foreigners would be eligible, can't see NZF paying for a team and then stacking it full of Pacific Islanders.

Another important point in regard to the A-youth league is that if the Phoenix weren't allowed to field a team (as the FFA has indicated), this would be a huge disadvantage to the Phoenix in both the short and long terms.  It wouldn't be a level playing field.  The Aussie clubs would effectively carry a squad of probably around 35 players, way more than the Phoenix.  Not only would this be unfair to the Phoenix on a week-to-week basis in the A-League but also in the longer term in regard to the Phoenix's ability to build a solid platform to raise their level of the game.  That is, the Aussie clubs would be in a far better position to develop and progress while the Phoenix would be stranded and probably relatively regress.

works for rugby, if they look good give them a nz youth cap hooked in for the future.
Anyway its about developing the best young talent that you can with  a youth team  thats whats  would be best for the nix,  maybe oceania  could put sum money up if we were developing the region.Will it not be based on the same model as A league is with four foreign players?

on an other point do oceania players count as foreign players for the nix as all kiwis are oceanian players anyway, sorry if this has been covered before
( got my ton )
sloth2008-01-10 16:41:44

I'd imagine so as while all kiwis are Oceanian, not all Oceanians are kiwis, which is the important part of the deal. Both Korea and Australia are Asian, yet Greg Louganis Hyuk-Su Seo counts as a foreign player for Queensland.

If there is a four foreign players rule, maybe we could get a bit of money from Oceania if we commit to using those four spots for OFC nations only, while saving the rest for NZers and maybe one or two Aussies (remembering the NZF have the A-League franchise license as part of the plan to develop NZ talent).

I'd much rather focus on growing NZ talent, Oceania can't last much longer and while i does we want NZ to dominate and qualify for as many tournaments as possible. For purey selfish reasons why would the Phoenix want to help Oceania. They're only interested in getting quality players that could play for them, NZ Soccer the same.

the Phoenix should be interested in geting the best players they can regardless of nationality, football nz is a different story.

I want a youth league team so theres more football to watch

Yes but if Pacific players are going to beclassed as foreigners, and we can only have 4 in the squad, there's not much of an incentive for the Phoenix to spend time and money developing them.

I agree with Chocnut, get a youth team in there (somehow) so they can play curtain raisers for the Phoenix, more football!

(Man that'll make it a long session, BB's for a few, youth game, phoenix game, back to BB's then on to Four Kings)

the number your allowed isn't important the quality they might bring is. if theres only one good kid from tahiti get him here a youth team is all about developing players for your club let NZF worry about the rest