Yes I'm sure there were plenty of Germans in 1945 who were keen to tell the good guys, they never supported the Nazis. Like so many White South Africans of course never believed in apartheid after Mandela was let out.
An agrument over whether Germany was liberated or conquered? Does beat bickering as to whether Domey should resign.
I guess what Number 8 was saying is that most Germans preferred surrendering to the Western Alllies rather than the vengeful Cossacks. Hence a big internal migration of Germans heading east in the final few weeks when the end was nigh.
Without poring over the maps of May 1945, sounds like all the Allies had grabbed a slice of German land by then. Didn't the Americans allow de Gaulle's Free French to basically take all of Alsace-Lorraine?
Germany was slammer punch defeated, not 'liberated'. What the Allies wanted to avoid was a 1918 Treaty of Versailles type armstice, after which many aggrieved Hun like Hitler felt they weren't truly defeated, but betrayed by their cowardly politicians. And so lots of burning anger & resentment to fuel the Nazis as they came to power in the 1920s-30s. By basically destroying Germany in 1945, and showing their people they were well and truly defeated, they avoided a repeat or National Socialism rebirth.
Monuments Men is a kind of fun movie, given its setting.
Is WWII still relevant?
Probably not to China right?
Though apparently the North Korean thing is apt. Until very recently their leaders were the same as during that time period. They built their city underground because of the bombing then. We had leaders from the 80s. They had leaders in their 80s from the 40s. There was plenty of misunderstandings of purpose. Dunno what the current lot are up to.
There’s also a great NZ documentary somewhere about a block of flats in East Berlin where the residents are opposed to the cabaret in its basement. The old East ex-communist Berliners remind me of old Brits and kiwis drinking tea and cake!
The events of the Holocaust will always remain relevant.
And definitely some parallels between Japan's (a country with very minimal natural resources) conquests through Asia in the 1930s-40s in a bid to obtain oil, iron, rubber etc, and what China would like to do if they could.
The Axis of Upheaval are catching up in Bejing this week. A Putin, Kim and Xi lovefest seems not a million miles unlike a Hitler, Mussolini & Tojo meet and greet.
Don’t forget Helen Clark and John Key are also there.coochiee
The events of the Holocaust will always remain relevant.
And definitely some parallels between Japan's (a country with very minimal natural resources) conquests through Asia in the 1930s-40s in a bid to obtain oil, iron, rubber etc, and what China would like to do if they could.
The Axis of Upheaval are catching up in Bejing this week. A Putin, Kim and Xi lovefest seems not a million miles unlike a Hitler, Mussolini & Tojo meet and greet.
Don’t forget Helen Clark and John Key are also there.coochiee
The events of the Holocaust will always remain relevant.
And definitely some parallels between Japan's (a country with very minimal natural resources) conquests through Asia in the 1930s-40s in a bid to obtain oil, iron, rubber etc, and what China would like to do if they could.
The Axis of Upheaval are catching up in Bejing this week. A Putin, Kim and Xi lovefest seems not a million miles unlike a Hitler, Mussolini & Tojo meet and greet.
Someone has to fill the role of 'peace in our time' Neville Chamberlain. Johnny Key has been seduced by the Chinese for years.
The events of the Holocaust will always remain relevant.
And definitely some parallels between Japan's (a country with very minimal natural resources) conquests through Asia in the 1930s-40s in a bid to obtain oil, iron, rubber etc, and what China would like to do if they could.
The Axis of Upheaval are catching up in Bejing this week. A Putin, Kim and Xi lovefest seems not a million miles unlike a Hitler, Mussolini & Tojo meet and greet.
Yes. Sobering.
And the war in Asia, well it almost starts as Japan increases its sphere of influence in Korea in the 1880s/90s. And not leaving out the British forcibly importing opium into China and the great power games there besides Japan.
I think it’s important to be careful when comparing the two. There was an ideology of superiority, but it is important to remember this harsh world applied to everyone. Injured troops were killed rather than evacuated. They were told to do suicide charges rather than surrender. Sacrificing individual freedom for your community’s success is preached in many places. The culture of honour was both true and enforced.
But Japan had a strong hopeful internationalist movement too, that was undercut by the West. Racial equality clauses were blocked in the treaty of Versailles and in a later navy treaty that attempted to stop the build up in armaments by setting ratios on ships. If trade deals with the US could have been done, that would have helped the internationalists to reel in the army. As it was the army could fairly claim that the West would never accept us and could not be trusted.
We’re talking about a world where India wasn’t independent of Britain and when many badly behaved colonial empires existed and limped on around the globe.
I think it’s better to look at Japan’s rise as the European empires retreated or reformed or in comparison to other empires. It was something nationalistic, and while hated for its brutality and war crimes, it was not driven by a philosophy of extermination or historic prejudices as much. The army in a way was similar to the East India Company in that it had a mind of its own and often got agreement rather than permission. And profit featured as a key motive for many.
How much US debt does China hold? How many US companies and others are dependent on their Chinese manufacturing and supply chains? It’s certainly not simple equation.
Of course - they still say they were liberated; otherwise they would be complicit. And the (old) East Germans right up to 1989 were all anti-fascist partisans all along, not a single old Nazi there ever either.
Did David Dome go to the Chinese military parade today or something?
Should he have? Would it have helped get us in the OFC pro league? Why haven’t we capitalised on our John Key in Nix colours photo of a younger happier PM?
Did David Dome go to the Chinese military parade today or something?
Should he have? Would it have helped get us in the OFC pro league? Why haven’t we capitalised on our John Key in Nix colours photo of a younger happier PM?
Did David Dome go to the Chinese military parade today or something?
Should he have? Would it have helped get us in the OFC pro league? Why haven’t we capitalised on our John Key in Nix colours photo of a younger happier PM?
It's fun to reminisce about historical fascism, but let's be very happy that the NZ government didn't let in a bunch of Balkan war criminals in 1946 for anticommunist reasons, leading to the current mess in certain Croatian clubs over the ditch
Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009 This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads
Saw a fascinating little doco in Aussie last year about a number of Balkan fascists, post the war who had a mysterious trend in Sydney especially, of meeting an untimely unexplained death.
The doco traced it all back to a Melbourne Jewish watchmaker who had a well known shop on Swan St in Richmond, for any who know that part of Melbs. Not far from AAMI, MCG etc. He was a holocaust survivor and apparently on the ship over from Europe with his brother, some of these Croat or whoever fascists had been on the same boat! Crazy scheduling by whoever. There were fights on board and someone may even have been murdered??
The watchmaker is long since dead, but he used to make regular trips up to NSW for years. Lots of rumours that he & some Jewish mates had knocked off a list of Nazis around Sydney. Some small slice of payback. Secret meetings at the watchshop and all sorts of stuff. The doco was the guy's son and cousins trying to prove the rumours were true. Tricky because many of the fascists came to Aussie with new identities, so tricky today to say whether they were really Nazi camp guards etc or not.
But there was beyond doubt a secretive underground network of Holocaust survivors in Aussie building intel on any Nazis who had got themselves downunder.
I used to work for a catering company in Wellington and we did food at funerals i liked to listen the eulogies and look at the photos. Have heard some amazing stories of refugees and how they survived the concentration camps and came to NZ. One particular day did a small service for a guy and his son gets up and starts talking part way through he stops and says in German his fathers real name and they then displayed a heap of photos of his father in Gestapo Uniform at concentration camps. The funeral director was mortified they hadnt said a word to him. Seems the father had lived a very quiet life here and was surrounded by like minded people if those that attended the funeral were anything to go by. Was actually quite chilling over hearing some of what they spoke about.
It's fun to reminisce about historical fascism, but let's be very happy that the NZ government didn't let in a bunch of Balkan war criminals in 1946 for anticommunist reasons, leading to the current mess in certain Croatian clubs over the ditch
I used to work for a catering company in Wellington and we did food at funerals i liked to listen the eulogies and look at the photos. Have heard some amazing stories of refugees and how they survived the concentration camps and came to NZ. One particular day did a small service for a guy and his son gets up and starts talking part way through he stops and says in German his fathers real name and they then displayed a heap of photos of his father in Gestapo Uniform at concentration camps. The funeral director was mortified they hadnt said a word to him. Seems the father had lived a very quiet life here and was surrounded by like minded people if those that attended the funeral were anything to go by. Was actually quite chilling over hearing some of what they spoke about.
Wow that is an incredible yarn. For the son to do that, it sounds like sadly the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Once as a Massey uni student in Palmy, I did some gardening for an elderly couple who I think told me they originally came from a Baltic state. I remember seeing a number tattoed on the arm of the old guy. I was too young and dumb to think of what that really meant.
A very common story from the workers on the Snowy Mountians Scheme (where most were European migrants / refugees / displaced persons) was to see people with a tattoed number on the arm. A less common but reported story was to find people with a tattoo on their arm beating up (badly) in the showers a guy with a tattoo in his armpit. There was a lot of security Aussie people who were posted there precisely to prevent people being killed. "You are all Australians now" was a common fix-it-all order.
An agrument over whether Germany was liberated or conquered? Does beat bickering as to whether Domey should resign.
I guess what Number 8 was saying is that most Germans preferred surrendering to the Western Alllies rather than the vengeful Cossacks. Hence a big internal migration of Germans heading east in the final few weeks when the end was nigh.
Without poring over the maps of May 1945, sounds like all the Allies had grabbed a slice of German land by then. Didn't the Americans allow de Gaulle's Free French to basically take all of Alsace-Lorraine?
Germany was slammer punch defeated, not 'liberated'. What the Allies wanted to avoid was a 1918 Treaty of Versailles type armstice, after which many aggrieved Hun like Hitler felt they weren't truly defeated, but betrayed by their cowardly politicians. And so lots of burning anger & resentment to fuel the Nazis as they came to power in the 1920s-30s. By basically destroying Germany in 1945, and showing their people they were well and truly defeated, they avoided a repeat or National Socialism rebirth.
Putin is a great example of an "interwar leader", seething with resentment at the calamity of losing a perfectly well functioning empire and dreaming of revenge on those who robbed him.
A very common story from the workers on the Snowy Mountians Scheme (where most were European migrants / refugees / displaced persons) was to see people with a tattoed number on the arm. A less common but reported story was to find people with a tattoo on their arm beating up (badly) in the showers a guy with a tattoo in his armpit. There was a lot of security Aussie people who were posted there precisely to prevent people being killed. "You are all Australians now" was a common fix-it-all order.
15 years ago living in Melbs, my regular barber was a tiny (55 kegs max) Hungarian geriatic, cutting hair on Smith St, Collingwood. The haircut was pretty ordinary but the story telling great.
Every couple of mins he'd slip away from my scalp to the corner of his shop for a few drags of his little rolled up durry, plus a few sips of strong black coffee. That seemed to be his calorie intake for a 8 hour stretch cutting hair, a combination of nicotine and caffeine.
He'd worked on that Snowy Mountains scheme in the 1950s-1960s. In the dead of the night sometime post the 1956 anti Soviet uprising, he just soft shoed walked over into Austria, past the border guards. Then got his passage to the Lucky Country. He never saw his parents again. By the time he finally returned to Hungary in the late 90s or whenever they were dead. I also remember for some reason he supported the Western Bulldogs AFL team. Black and white newspaper clippings everywhere.
I have a very close friend from Palmy, from the age of 17 in fact. His Dad was Dutch Jewish and he had the number tattooed on his arm. Worked later with another guy who’s dad was Lithuanian and was a camp guard. We used to rib him that he was the son of a war criminal. About 3 years ago I was having dinner with him and his older brother and they reckoned the same and told a story about how one of their Dad’s friends (also in NZ) made some cryptic comment about their joined past and their Dad went off at him and shut him down quick. I bet therevare a lot of stories like that. But we digress….coochiee
ballane
I used to work for a catering company in Wellington and we did food at funerals i liked to listen the eulogies and look at the photos. Have heard some amazing stories of refugees and how they survived the concentration camps and came to NZ. One particular day did a small service for a guy and his son gets up and starts talking part way through he stops and says in German his fathers real name and they then displayed a heap of photos of his father in Gestapo Uniform at concentration camps. The funeral director was mortified they hadnt said a word to him. Seems the father had lived a very quiet life here and was surrounded by like minded people if those that attended the funeral were anything to go by. Was actually quite chilling over hearing some of what they spoke about.
Wow that is an incredible yarn. For the son to do that, it sounds like sadly the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Once as a Massey uni student in Palmy, I did some gardening for an elderly couple who I think told me they originally came from a Baltic state. I remember seeing a number tattoed on the arm of the old guy. I was too young and dumb to think of what that really meant.
I bet there were some interesting and tragic stories to be told in the old Hungaria clubrooms back in the day. I used to love watching them playing atbthe Basin, the Polyanskis, Kiss etc.
See we’ve got back to Wellington football, just took a bit of time…coochiee
Mainland FC
A very common story from the workers on the Snowy Mountians Scheme (where most were European migrants / refugees / displaced persons) was to see people with a tattoed number on the arm. A less common but reported story was to find people with a tattoo on their arm beating up (badly) in the showers a guy with a tattoo in his armpit. There was a lot of security Aussie people who were posted there precisely to prevent people being killed. "You are all Australians now" was a common fix-it-all order.
15 years ago living in Melbs, my regular barber was a tiny (55 kegs max) Hungarian geriatic, cutting hair on Smith St, Collingwood. The haircut was pretty ordinary but the story telling great.
Every couple of mins he'd slip away from my scalp to the corner of his shop for a few drags of his little rolled up durry, plus a few sips of strong black coffee. That seemed to be his calorie intake for a 8 hour stretch cutting hair, a combination of nicotine and caffeine.
He'd worked on that Snowy Mountains scheme in the 1950s-1960s. In the dead of the night sometime post the 1956 anti Soviet uprising, he just soft shoed walked over into Austria, past the border guards. Then got his passage to the Lucky Country. He never saw his parents again. By the time he finally returned to Hungary in the late 90s or whenever they were dead. I also remember for some reason he supported the Western Bulldogs AFL team. Black and white newspaper clippings everywhere.
This thread has the serious potential to become "Legendary" on the Internet. Similar to the "Sarah from Boots" on a Watford Message Board 20 or so years ago.
The jist of it was her boyfriend "Brian" went to Greece for a Holiday with his mate and came with with an STD present for Sarah.
Helen Clarke was also know as Red Helen, so her attendance was no surprise. That Dohn Key showed up, well I guess any chance for a photo opportunity.
Domey would be impressed with such an interesting yet digressing thread. You are all awesome for making this happen. Especially, Domey, who hasn't said a thing.
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!
It's fun to reminisce about historical fascism, but let's be very happy that the NZ government didn't let in a bunch of Balkan war criminals in 1946 for anticommunist reasons, leading to the current mess in certain Croatian clubs over the ditch
Dont be so sure some got here.
I mean, they don't have photos of Pavelić up at the Central United clubrooms
Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009 This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads
As to what coochieewas saying, I'd heard about Australian Croatian fascists meeting sticky ends, but I hadn't heard that was Jewish vigilantes, I heard it was Yugoslav spooks. I suppose it could have been both.
Ramming liberal dribble down your throat since 2009 This forum needs less angst and more Kate Bush threads
As to what coochieewas saying, I'd heard about Australian Croatian fascists meeting sticky ends, but I hadn't heard that was Jewish vigilantes, I heard it was Yugoslav spooks. I suppose it could have been both.
This article says the watch shop was in East Melbourne, I thought I remembered it was Richmond.
But yeah the guy was a Jewish partisan in Lithuania during the war, so he obviously had some useful experience in killing Nazis, that he may well then have utilised in Australia's leafy burbs. I would like to think he did.
"It wasn't like Nazis came here without the Government knowing. Like, from the outset, you know, Holocaust survivors were literally on boats leaving Europe ... and there would be Nazis on the boats. Nazis who would taunt them... They would go into migrant hostels to restablish or start their new lives as Australians, there would be Nazis there that would be openly vilify and taunt them and persecute them as Jews."
Some Holocaust survivors report coming face-to-face with their loved ones' killers, who were living freely in Australia.
It's fun to reminisce about historical fascism, but let's be very happy that the NZ government didn't let in a bunch of Balkan war criminals in 1946 for anticommunist reasons, leading to the current mess in certain Croatian clubs over the ditch
Dont be so sure some got here.
I mean, they don't have photos of Pavelić up at the Central United clubrooms
The irony of Juan Perón, protecting a bunch of ex Nazi murderers in Argentina.
Apparently though pop culture over-eggs the postwar flight by a narrow band of Germanic people, to the detriment of very real culture throughout the Americas.
I knew Texas had its own dialect of German and we hear a lot of New York stories about the Italians, Irish and Jewish settlers, but Scandinavians and German farmers moved more into the MidWest, and so appear less in movies!
In the Southern Americas too I heard there’s a Germanic dialect native to Brazil which is in danger of being lost and that there was a lot of 19th century immigration there to and to various places in the rest of ‘Latin’ America.
So there is truth to those pop culture stories, but there’re other stories too.
“Angel of Death” Joseph Mengele fled BA when the Mossad captured Eichman. Mengele drowned years later hiding out in Brazil. He was an evil sick bastard. Klaus Barbie the Butcher of Lyon, hid in plain sight in Bolivia for years. Finally the French managed to get him extradited. The great mime a young Marcel Marceau secreted Jews into Switzerland was one of Barbie’s targets
General Austin Pinochet in Chile had some ex Nazi running his main prison torture camp in a rural secretive area
I like Simon Reeve’s travel shows. One of the stranger places he went to was a large old German community in Paraguay. They have Amish type beliefs of no or limited technology, use horse buggies, marry young etc. They speak Old German with Spanish as their 2nd language
But they have also accumulated great wealth through beef farming and owning the whole supply chain with large abbatoirs, trucking fleets, export companies etc. Their best and brightest getting a US or European Uni education before coming back to be the execs
All a bit strange
Then in Argentina there is a town of German descendants of sailors from the Graf Spree battleship which was scuttled in the Rio Grande off Montevideo. Many of them stayed and settled in Argy. HMSNZ Achilles helped cripple the GS in 1939. They got a tikka tape parade in Auckland when they returned to NZ.
I visited a cemetery in Montevideo where there are a couple of NZ sailors buried from the sea battle. Long way from home
I would say about Levy though, it’s interesting. Maybe he’s been forced out or perhaps he set himself some targets, achieved them and left.
Spurs have great matchday revenue. They have a good squad and a respected manager. They have new facilities which they own. And they’ve finally won a trophy to open their recent times account.
And Levy was also playing with his own coin, having his own money invested in the club too. That makes it a little more real than simply a salaried role.
Perhaps he had done what he set out to do and now wants to enjoy it? I’d be surprised, but it’s possible. I don’t know much about his replacement.
Succession planning has been a Brighton trademark, but they’re high turnover. A failure at Manchester Red, but their owners have remained and only now is there a DoF and some heft to that area of the club. And Arne Slot is currently seen as a great succession achievement. We’ll have to wait on Salah’s retirement and post Trent life to be sure, but it’s been so far so good.
And there’s a bit of worry at YF too. Rob was worried about the young Fever Elite…it’s Simon right from this forum? He’s been getting to meetings and things? What’s the next iteration of the pod? Are the kids all right?
The Phoenix it’s fair to say at the moment aren’t confident looking 5 years ahead, as the NKotB in Auckland arrives and now this unforeseen FIFA benevolence. Turbulence in Aussie has been easier to manage than at home.
I wonder what Domey is confident of achieving in those 5 years. I’m hoping the women’s scudetto this season! They’ve had a big window. But beyond that I wonder what the picture is? Harder to see with the broadcast deals and the like of course. Any way.
“Angel of Death” Joseph Mengele fled BA when the Mossad captured Eichman. Mengele drowned years later hiding out in Brazil. He was an evil sick bastard. Klaus Barbie the Butcher of Lyon, hid in plain sight in Bolivia for years. Finally the French managed to get him extradited. The great mime a young Marcel Marceau secreted Jews into Switzerland was one of Barbie’s targets
General Austin Pinochet in Chile had some ex Nazi running his main prison torture camp in a rural secretive area
I like Simon Reeve’s travel shows. One of the stranger places he went to was a large old German community in Paraguay. They have Amish type beliefs of no or limited technology, use horse buggies, marry young etc. They speak Old German with Spanish as their 2nd language
But they have also accumulated great wealth through beef farming and owning the whole supply chain with large abbatoirs, trucking fleets, export companies etc. Their best and brightest getting a US or European Uni education before coming back to be the execs
All a bit strange
Then in Argentina there is a town of German descendants of sailors from the Graf Spree battleship which was scuttled in the Rio Grande off Montevideo. Many of them stayed and settled in Argy. HMSNZ Achilles helped cripple the GS in 1939. They got a tikka tape parade in Auckland when they returned to NZ.
I visited a cemetery in Montevideo where there are a couple of NZ sailors buried from the sea battle. Long way from home
The long-time dictator of Paraguay, Alfredo Stroessner, was a son of an immigrant from Bavaria. There were also lots of Swiss and German migrants in both Uruguay and Chile, long before WWII. The tiny, tidy, Colonia Suisa (Nueva Helvecia), set up in mid-XIX century, in the west of Uruguay was well known for making the best cheese in the country, when I was there in the early eighties. Uruguay was one of the few places in South America with good soil and climate where the Swiss migrants were allowed to buy land. And for Polish flavour, no other South American city can beat Curitiba in Brazil.
I visited a cemetery in Montevideo where there are a couple of NZ sailors buried from the sea battle. Long way from home
I knew about Achilles but I didn’t realise there are kiwi sailors buried there. If my crazy dream of making it to Brazil for the WWC somehow comes to fruition then I plan to see a bit more of the continent while I’m there, so stopping by to pay my respects is now on my ever-expanding list.
And there’s a bit of worry at YF too. Rob was worried about the young Fever Elite…it’s Simon right from this forum? He’s been getting to meetings and things? What’s the next iteration of the pod? Are the kids all right?
I just lurk around the periphery and try to be helpful where I can, so any concerns Rob has are news to me. All I can say from my own observations is that the Fever Hui seemed pretty positive (even if the promised notes haven’t surfaced yet), and Sam P who posts here sometimes did a great job of liaising with the club and the stadium to ensure a visible YF presence at yesterday’s KSC final.
I know it’s a separate entity from the Fever (as much as we’re an “entity”), but I hear the Fan Representative Group is still a thing - so that’s another channel for the club and supporters to pass concerns or ideas back and forth.
As for the topic of this thread, I personally feel the negativity towards Domey is getting a bit out of hand. I know I’m a relatively new supporter so maybe if I’d ridden the roller coaster for 18 years I’d feel differently, and just like with Chiefy I’m probably biased based on the short but very positive personal interactions I’ve had with Dome - I get that people want results, not warm fuzzies, but I have no doubts at all about his passion and commitment to the club.
Some might argue that just like with the OFCPL bid that’s nice but irrelevant. Fair enough, the forum would be pretty dull if we all shared the same opinion, but there’s a line between being a frustrated supporter who wants the club to do better and being a detractor who has nothing positive to say about it.
+9
