Way to early after only 2 games and limited pre season to be trying to guess who is going to be playing where. Would think once Chief has his full squad assembled there could be some surprises on what he is going to do. Wouldnt be surprised at all to see more responsibility put on those young guys who have been with the team for a while. Some are at the same stage as Paulsen,Surman and Old were in their last season with us. No reason at all to not expect a couple of them to step up.
I still have my doubts about this year personally in terms of... I'm not sure where the added quality is coming from - at this stage I still feel our replacements are less than what we have lost (Sutton vs Armiento, Kosta vs Eze) and whilst I expect individuals like Hughes/Sheridan etc to have grown as players I don't know if it will be enough to change our fortunes that much.
Against Perth we still only had 35 - 40% possession and relied on counter attacking footy. We were more aggressive defensively with the press, but again we looked weak in attack and isolated. Relying on individual brilliance to create something is not an attacking game plan.
I am however excited to see where the majority of this team is in 2 years time, once the youth are more established and battled hardened, and no offence to our Japanese players, but they have moved on and we have hopefully replaced them with better quality.
This year looks and feels like a rebuild to me still. I hope I'm wrong, but a couple decent shifts in pre season is not enough to convince me otherwise. We had by our standards a very good start last year and look how that panned out.
I think there is too much false hope currently. Our last 2 signings are critical!
We're yet to find the truth but I suspect Armiento will prove better than Sutton and Eze will match or possibly better Kosta. For now I feel like I'd take those two replacements as roughly a par on last year.
We tended to look at Sutton with our biases of what we hoped the local lad might deliver. But he never really kicked on to be consistently top class at A League level. A very good, solid quality A League player, but never took it by the scruff of the neck. I'd think Armiento should match that.
Eze looks very quick and with a combo of Old's deceptive, player beating and rapid ball running, together with something near Kostas nose for a goal, and better physicality. There will be aspects of what Kosta delivered last year that Eze won't match but he will bring things Kosta wouldn't match as well, I think.
Hopefully I'm not over reading his highlights package.
With the little time we had from Rojas and Chico when they were fit last year, and once we got over the large range of other injuries and illnesses, we looked top 4 level. Maybe better.
That's where I still want to see us add - that quality playmaker who can create and score. Rojas or Chico level, but actually playing for us. And I think we can do enough at the back to be solid with what we have and what we can add locally (Aus/NZ).
The young players have all improved mentally, physically and technically. The next batch look promising. Hughes looks like he can be a boss at the back.
It's enough for me to be hopeful of good things IF we sign that extra Marco/Chico level import.
I think, with respect for what he did bring for us and how our young players learnt from him, Wooton was actually slowing us down last year and Surman helped him look good the year before. I think we'll do surprisingly well without him.
Wow for me thats seriously understating what Wooton did for the team both last year and the year before. Yep Surman was good but they worked as a team and very wrong to suggest it was Surman that made him look good. Dont really get why Wooton gets so much grief when he was pretty good for us through out his time here.
Wow for me thats seriously understating what Wooton did for the team both last year and the year before. Yep Surman was good but they worked as a team and very wrong to suggest it was Surman that made him look good. Dont really get why Wooton gets so much grief when he was pretty good for us through out his time here.
Wootton was generally excellent in his tenure with us, but took a step back last season.
I was lucky enough to speak with one of the Wrexham training staff at the NCIS and he said the facilities were outstanding and that the concencis amongst the staff and players was one that they would've preferred to have had 2 weeks at the NCIS, rather than the games in Australia. They were genuinely taken back by the facilities and the way the Wellington football public treated them.
I don't think he was saying to keep us locals happy. They loved the time at the NCIS.
Maybe we can do a deal with European teams. Come use our facilities for an overseas training camp and throw in a game with the Nix.
I was critical of Wooten last year, not so much in his defensive duties but more when were in possession.
I think he was too limited in his passing range and meant we couldn't play through a press as effectively as Chief would have liked. I also think technically he had some flaws which slowed his ball rotation, for example, he often didn't recieve the ball on his back foot to allow him to open out quicker, to his left foot not being that great.
I think he will be good at Perth in part because I think they will play more direct which will hide those deficiencies. Him and Kaltak could make a great team, his reading of the game and Kaltak athleticism etc.
Hughes will benefit from having a ball playing CB next to him IMO - and so will the NIX.
Nonsense. Wootton was ultra composed on the ball and always played sensible, progressive passes for a CB, never needlessly backwards. He was doing his job. Our problem was not that Wootton wasnt a good enough playmaker, it was that our midfield and frontline (apart from Kosta) were all terrible, even Rufer for a lot of the time he was playing.
Wootton also got a lot of criticism before he partnered up with with Surman because a lot of people were too dumb to notice that the problem was he was paired with Laws & Payne who were much worse than Surman (and Wootton himself). We will be incredibly lucky to get a better replacement, I am certainly not expecting it.
Rubbish... there is a difference between being composed and only able to hit a pass side ways, which was pretty much all he did. He either fed it to Payne or back to Hughes otherwise it was a simple pass to a dropping DM.
Wooten is a solid defender, good reader of the game and a good talker, but he was very limited with the ball.
We've had a worse midfield in the last two games than we did last year, but seem more capable of beating a press. Why... no Wooten!
I like him as a player. He just doesn't suit Chiefs tactics IMO.
Hmm. He was a calm presence with a low error rate. I rate Hughes and Payne as CBs, but I can think of several daft things they’ve done which have lead to goals.
With Wootton I can’t remember any.
I remember him making blocks, headers and tidying up. Being something of a threat at set pieces.
I just remember him being calm. Not fighting anyone or bollocking anyone or disagreeing with the ref. Just getting the ball and either shifting it or getting it out of trouble. And more than often being in the right place.
That is different to any other CB I’ve watched or met tbh! Pallister, Bruce, Ferdinand and Vidic, Staam, Durante, Stephen Taylor, John Terry, Nelsen and Winston Reid…there was always a kind of menace exuded towards attackers. Karl Dodd kicking out. Siggie! Crunch. Bring the ball here at your own risk. Wootton wasn’t that kind of strong ego on the field.
Rubbish... there is a difference between being composed and only able to hit a pass side ways, which was pretty much all he did. He either fed it to Payne or back to Hughes otherwise it was a simple pass to a dropping DM.
Wooten is a solid defender, good reader of the game and a good talker, but he was very limited with the ball.
We've had a worse midfield in the last two games than we did last year, but seem more capable of beating a press. Why... no Wooten!
I like him as a player. He just doesn't suit Chiefs tactics IMO.
Our passing out from the back was great in the game vs WSW at home - game where Chico scored.
What was the difference? Payne and Sheridan started.
I agree that last season Wootton played behind a worse midfield than the season before, which I think often caused him to hesitate before passing it forward to a DM. We were much better with Pennington and Kraev too, covering for any transitional weaknesses from the DMs.
Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days
I think Wooton won't be missed as much as people fear. That's all. And that presumes we will be able to pick up an experienced kiwi or aussie to mostly start alongside Hughes.
That doesn't mean Wooton wasn't calm and largely error free ( though I'd not say completely so). But Hughes has improved a lot. Wooton has had younger guys doing almost all the under pressure, faster reacting, closing, sometimes desparate stuff around him while he got to be calm. And organising/talking. I'd say we will miss Wooton if we can't get that experienced Aus/Kiwi. But I don't think a visa ex Premier League level guy is required alongside Hughes.
If we ship a few more goals without Wooton but score more with a visa attacking playmaker, that's what we've all been demanding, right?
Some centre back pairings are balanced. In other cases one buzzes and covers more while the other holds and is likely stronger. If we can find a solid enough guy to play alongside Hughes we may not be as tight as with Wooton (though we were not all that good with him in the last year). But we can be good enough.
So, as I said with respect to what Wooton brought for us, the thing is to find the right balance in the squad given what we otherwise have locked in. I'd rather have the visa mid and manage without Wooton. Presuming we can get a pretty decent next tier Aussie/Kiwi. And if that dude can score a few from corners, which Wooton rarely did, all the better.
Just thoughts chaps. I'm not going to die defending those thoughts. But hopefully that explains where I'm coming from.
I liked Wooten but his sideways passing for too often was frustrating, then it was usually the long ball straight to their goalkeeper or defence. It may well have been the tactics or lack of midefield to offer him an option but Rufer when playing was always dropping back offering him and option. And yes, he did backwards pass a lot, especially to Paulsen. This game last Sunday, despite being pre season he looked a little slower, slow to turn. Even though through experience he read the game to position himself. His danger at corners was still there to see though. I wish Scott well, but now is the time for our current defenders to step up and be counted. I saw 3 errors on Sunday night but they got away with 2 or them and the 3rd got Perth their goal.
Proud to have attended the first 175 Consecutive "Home" Wellington Phoenix "A League" Games !!
I liked Wooten but his sideways passing for too often was frustrating, then it was usually the long ball straight to their goalkeeper or defence. It may well have been the tactics or lack of midefield to offer him an option but Rufer when playing was always dropping back offering him and option. And yes, he did backwards pass a lot, especially to Paulsen. This game last Sunday, despite being pre season he looked a little slower, slow to turn. Even though through experience he read the game to position himself. His danger at corners was still there to see though. I wish Scott well, but now is the time for our current defenders to step up and be counted. I saw 3 errors on Sunday night but they got away with 2 or them and the 3rd got Perth their goal.
Agreed on the "three errors" and the fact they got away with two and only one goal against, was that Perth genuinely only had Taggart as a serious threat, and that was late. it would be a different story against WSW let alone Victory. so our proposed central defence / midfield for this season may need another look.
Actually, getting outplayed quite a bit these days
I liked Wooten but his sideways passing for too often was frustrating, then it was usually the long ball straight to their goalkeeper or defence. It may well have been the tactics or lack of midefield to offer him an option but Rufer when playing was always dropping back offering him and option. And yes, he did backwards pass a lot, especially to Paulsen. This game last Sunday, despite being pre season he looked a little slower, slow to turn. Even though through experience he read the game to position himself. His danger at corners was still there to see though. I wish Scott well, but now is the time for our current defenders to step up and be counted. I saw 3 errors on Sunday night but they got away with 2 or them and the 3rd got Perth their goal.
Agreed on the "three errors" and the fact they got away with two and only one goal against, was that Perth genuinely only had Taggart as a serious threat, and that was late. it would be a different story against WSW let alone Victory. so our proposed central defence / midfield for this season may need another look.
One more Aussie/kiwi experienced CB to come, plus Rufer. Payne and Armiento if a back four.
Plus a bit of steady time together for a consistent starting grouping.
I'm definitely keeping my rose tinteds on and hankering for that visa attacking mid :)
Our backline is incredibly young... outside Payne and Piper no one is over 22.
I like the adage, if your good enough, your old enough, but we have taken that to the extreme this year.
Do wonder if Chief is backing a couple of the young guys to have Surman like seasons as they are at the same stage he was when he had his breakout season.
I think Surman is a special case. Which will come to light as his career progresses. Young backline gets alarm bells ringing for me especially when we don't know where our goals are coming from.
Would there also be some players who are in the ressies who’ve had some experience who might be on the radar? Or second or third choice in a squad?
Few looked promising in the Wrexham game and were also in the squad for Perth Australia cup game - Cassidy, Gillion, Lee, Munro, Candy, McCarron.
Oh - I didn’t word that comment well. I was wondering if there was an experienced CB sitting on bench in another A league squad who might want to play the Tommy Smith role for us…in addition to the free agents.
If I've read between the lines on Chief's comments correctly I am pretty sure he is wanting to add a more senior Aus/Kiwi centre back. And landing that is holding up using the visa for the attacking mid.
If he can't land the Aus/Kiwi experienced CB he will use the visa there. Which presumably would mean no visa attacking mid.
My fingers crossed for him signing Laws or similar, then we can add quality to the attack.
I'm being a broken record on this, but I think landing the CB is holding up finalising the squad. He is taking his time trying to land the decent local CB.
Gross. Just like Scott Kuggeleijn, the threshold doesn't need to be 'was he convicted of a crime'. Sexual assault conviction rates are significantly lower than for many other crimes.
Gross. Just like Scott Kuggeleijn, the threshold doesn't need to be 'was he convicted of a crime'. Sexual assault conviction rates are significantly lower than for many other crimes.
whatever happened to innocnet until proven guilty? not saying the aforementioned Kuggeleijn or Tongyik werent engaged in a beahviour where consent was questionaly given but if they are taken to court and a jury of their peers says not guilty then that has to be the end of their persecution.
I agree, sexual assault cases are tough to prove as it is often he said she said, but there have been cases where the accusation is false or at best regret driven, and no team can afford to be ignoring talent because someone accused them of something.
Gross. Just like Scott Kuggeleijn, the threshold doesn't need to be 'was he convicted of a crime'. Sexual assault conviction rates are significantly lower than for many other crimes.
whatever happened to innocnet until proven guilty? not saying the aforementioned Kuggeleijn or Tongyik werent engaged in a beahviour where consent was questionaly given but if they are taken to court and a jury of their peers says not guilty then that has to be the end of their persecution.
I agree, sexual assault cases are tough to prove as it is often he said she said, but there have been cases where the accusation is false or at best regret driven, and no team can afford to be ignoring talent because someone accused them of something.
People aren’t innocent until proven guilty.
They’re considered innocent until proven guilty. There’s a difference…
Gross. Just like Scott Kuggeleijn, the threshold doesn't need to be 'was he convicted of a crime'. Sexual assault conviction rates are significantly lower than for many other crimes.
whatever happened to innocnet until proven guilty? not saying the aforementioned Kuggeleijn or Tongyik werent engaged in a beahviour where consent was questionaly given but if they are taken to court and a jury of their peers says not guilty then that has to be the end of their persecution.
I agree, sexual assault cases are tough to prove as it is often he said she said, but there have been cases where the accusation is false or at best regret driven, and no team can afford to be ignoring talent because someone accused them of something.
People aren’t innocent until proven guilty.
They’re considered innocent until proven guilty. There’s a difference…
Sure, but for the purpose of the two named accused, neither is probably 100% onnocent or guilt free, but they were givcen not guilty verdicts in a court of law so that should be the end of an accusations, barring appeals etc.
That logic works until you think about Mason Greenwood and get sick to your stomach that he's never been found guilty of anything. I hope you aren't seriously saying he should still have a pro career and that you'd welcome him here with open arms, should that ever occur.
Personally I don't think a not guilty verdict removes all stigma from someone who has been accused of sex crimes especially (due to their usually private nature and difficulty to prove). I wouldn't want Greenwood, Tongyik or anyone else who has had credible accusations against them to play for us, regardless of what a court found.
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