Alternative Wellington Stadium

Some people..

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The bot underneath Dave's comment somehow made more sense

Am now permanently opposed to a boutique 10k stadium

zonknz

Am now permanently opposed to a boutique 10k stadium

Boutique 15k stadium?

Porrirua park could easily be up graded. Look at Trafalgar Park in Nelson. They have a four thousand “temporary” stand down one side which could be done in PP. Plus in Porrirua there is potential at either end for seating. The issue for the Nix moving there is access, parking and TV quality lighting.
I have fond memories of the Nix in the pop up stadium at Hutt Rec. That was fun. The Hutt council bent over backwards to get the Nix there. Forget any Wellington council initiatives…..they are broke. Dont know where WC are going to find the money when our stadium needs a huge upgrade in 10 to 15 years time. The age of the mega stadium is coming to an end in small countries like NZ.  It’s just too expensive now to build and maintain big stadia for an annual All Black test. Most countries our size have a National stadium where all the big events happen.

Porirua Park only needs one stand added - on the other side of the field. Since my last comment on this subject, the new Stadium Trust Chairman has had a fair chance to change some of the obvious complaints and what have we seen?? NOTHING. Just the same old same old. And again, so long as their Car Parks are free, the Food and the Booze supplied to their Trust Corporate Box, they don't give a shark about anyone else. Take it or leave it. Well, Wellington Rugby have chosen to leave it and I'm glad to see some of the Ladies Phoenix have their games in Porirua.

austin111

Porrirua park could easily be up graded. Look at Trafalgar Park in Nelson. They have a four thousand “temporary” stand down one side which could be done in PP. Plus in Porrirua there is potential at either end for seating. The issue for the Nix moving there is access, parking and TV quality lighting.
I have fond memories of the Nix in the pop up stadium at Hutt Rec. That was fun. The Hutt council bent over backwards to get the Nix there. Forget any Wellington council initiatives…..they are broke. Dont know where WC are going to find the money when our stadium needs a huge upgrade in 10 to 15 years time. The age of the mega stadium is coming to an end in small countries like NZ.  It’s just too expensive now to build and maintain big stadia for an annual All Black test. Most countries our size have a National stadium where all the big events happen.

the water issues are a regional problem, all cities are facing them and all pay for Wellington water. Don't expect much from any council.

The stadium is a bit rank with entry/exit in only one spot and the food lines stretching across the concourse walkway 

Yeah I don't know why they don't invest in some of those cinema rope things so the lines snake back and forth rather than straight out of the outlets.

2ndBest

Yeah I don't know why they don't invest in some of those cinema rope things so the lines snake back and forth rather than straight out of the outlets.

They did for some of the outlets at the WWC iirc?

Hutt Rec got good crouds back in the day.

Jessie Merino

Hutt Rec got good crouds back in the day.

sure did, but they had temporary stands set up to cater for the crowds. The permanant stand only seats a couple of thousand tops. Besides there are no other facilities at the ground, you'd have to build them and the Nimby's would be against that.

Jessie Merino

Hutt Rec got good crouds back in the day.

Yeah, the crouds were good on the big screen but crowds weren't that flash. First game was around 7k, another was around 8k, and another was around 9k. It never sold out and the team was challenging at the top of the table and playing attractive football.

coochiee

Walsall Boy

Doloras

So next season once the 09 becomes "enemy territory", where will the Nix men's team take games when the RoF is unavailable? Will they all be "regional" (Napier/South Island/New Plymouth/Ring of Dirt) or is there an alternative Wellington venue? Jerry Collins seems a bit small for the men's team

A year or two and the new Christchurch stadium will be ready.  I suspect there will be some very enticing offers made to both Phoenix and Auckland to take games there.

Strong Cantab contingent at the Nix currently. Surman & Luke Supyk in the men's squad. And at least 5-6 in the ALW side originally from Canterbury. 

New flash stadium won't be ready until 2027, so it may have to be some games at the Addington scaffolding next season. At least you are close to the action there.

Anywhere is better than Palmy North

What we need is a very localized earthquake under the Wellington stadium and it gets written off. Then get the architect plans for the Forsyth Barr stadium from Dunedin and build it with the insurance money. The economic model for stadia can no longer rely on sport alone. You need a covered  stadium like Dunedin and then multi use it for rock concerts, wine/beer festivals, trade shows, opera in park etc

austin111

What we need is a very localized earthquake under the Wellington stadium and it gets written off. Then get the architect plans for the Forsyth Barr stadium from Dunedin and build it with the insurance money. The economic model for stadia can no longer rely on sport alone. You need a covered  stadium like Dunedin and then multi use it for rock concerts, wine/beer festivals, trade shows, opera in park etc

Be interesting to see how Forsyth Barr goes economically once the new covered ChCh stadium is up & going. At the moment alot of big name music acts for their Sth Island concert go to Dunedin. Lots of ChCh folk travelling down. But yeah ChCh has double the popn of Dunners, so can see them taking some bigger events off Forsyth Barr.

The Southern Island to have the 2 best rectangular stadiums in NZ. 

coochiee

austin111

What we need is a very localized earthquake under the Wellington stadium and it gets written off. Then get the architect plans for the Forsyth Barr stadium from Dunedin and build it with the insurance money. The economic model for stadia can no longer rely on sport alone. You need a covered  stadium like Dunedin and then multi use it for rock concerts, wine/beer festivals, trade shows, opera in park etc

Be interesting to see how Forsyth Barr goes economically once the new covered ChCh stadium is up & going. At the moment alot of big name music acts for their Sth Island concert go to Dunedin. Lots of ChCh folk travelling down. But yeah ChCh has double the popn of Dunners, so can see them taking some bigger events off Forsyth Barr.

The Southern Island to have the 2 best rectangular stadiums in NZ. 

you mean the second and third best? Mt Smart is 🤌 up da wahs

Nelfoos

Doloras

So next season once the 09 becomes "enemy territory", where will the Nix men's team take games when the RoF is unavailable? Will they all be "regional" (Napier/South Island/New Plymouth/Ring of Dirt) or is there an alternative Wellington venue? Jerry Collins seems a bit small for the men's team

No real alternative in Wellington, I expect Christchurch is the favourite but could well go regional as well.

Trust an Aucklander to consider the South Island a "region" lol

We consider Auckland to be a pimple on South Island's butt.

Are its lights up to standard? 

As I’m not a Wellington local I know nothing about these two grounds.
Anyone who knows if either of these ideas are feasible??

Because of domey in that article by AV on stuff saying a 6000-7000 crowd loses up to $30k a game, these smaller grounds could make us money on those crowd numbers??

Based on how little I’ve ever heard on this suggests this would be hard to pull off.

No way the rate payer is going to accept the council paying for a new stadium when rates are apparently going up 15-20% and services are being cut to pay for pipes.

martinb

Are its lights up to standard? 

The lights at Newtown park got a major upgrade due to the American women training their, I dont know if they are up to TV (aleague) requirements but they are the same lights used at the stadium. Only four pillions though, os maybe another two would be needed?

theaucklandphoenixfan

As I’m not a Wellington local I know nothing about these two grounds.
Anyone who knows if either of these ideas are feasible??

Because of domey in that article by AV on stuff saying a 6000-7000 crowd loses up to $30k a game, these smaller grounds could make us money on those crowd numbers??

Based on how little I’ve ever heard on this suggests this would be hard to pull off.

 I doubt there is space at Newtown to do this. Both incredibly hard to get to for those not in the vicinity. 

Wellington is not getting a new stadium of any size. The best hope might be some kind of redevelopment of the Basin when they build a new tunnel.

I would prefer to watch the Phoenix matches in a smaller ground, would make such a difference to the atmosphere.

However as I fly down to all the games Sky is a fantastic location being central and near hotels and food and everything else.

I love our yellow seats too. I assume they were for the hurricanes when the stadium was built?

theaucklandphoenixfan

I would prefer to watch the Phoenix matches in a smaller ground, would make such a difference to the atmosphere.

However as I fly down to all the games Sky is a fantastic location being central and near hotels and food and everything else.

I love our yellow seats too. I assume they were for the hurricanes when the stadium was built?

Yellow is the city's colour (along with black, and most recently, brown).

I'd hate for the Basin to be anything other than a cricket ground and I don't think that'll happen. Best shot is developing something that is existing. Even Newtown athletics stadium adjacent would be good. But personal bias will always be for Porirua. I know neither are happening, so we need to rely on the council to upgrade infrastructure when it can.

Khandallah pool

theaucklandphoenixfan

I would prefer to watch the Phoenix matches in a smaller ground, would make such a difference to the atmosphere.

However as I fly down to all the games Sky is a fantastic location being central and near hotels and food and everything else.

I love our yellow seats too. I assume they were for the hurricanes when the stadium was built?

yellow and black are wellington city colours it's why the hurricanes play in yellow and black and why yellow fever was called the yellow fever before the phoenix even had a name or a colour, people just assumed it would include yellow.

The A League needs to learn from the only other major league like ours: The MLS.

It specifies "soccer specific" stadiums to stop the exact issue we have in Wellington and the Roar have in Brisbane: Oversized stadiums that lose clubs money.

The Nix and even the 'Canes need a decent 15-20k stadium owned by them (Nix), not a Wellington council. 

Buy some underused industrial land near the city and build something simple and improve it over time. Will make the Nix way more financially sound, improve atmosphere and gets rid of that horrid sight of a 3/4 empty stadium on TV. 

Given Foley's vested interest in US sports, he's very likely to be thinking exactly this for Auckland.

Nevermind that average stadium in Dunners, this is how we should be building any new major stadia in NZ:

https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/12923024/sky-sports-future-of-football-what-does-the-future-look-like-for-stadium-development

And Oxford is hoping to build the sort of thing that Auckland and Wellington both need:
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/13071399/oxford-united-unveil-plans-to-build-first-all-electric-stadium-in-uk

Marto

The A League needs to learn from the only other major league like ours: The MLS.

It specifies "soccer specific" stadiums to stop the exact issue we have in Wellington and the Roar have in Brisbane: Oversized stadiums that lose clubs money.

The Nix and even the 'Canes need a decent 15-20k stadium owned by them (Nix), not a Wellington council. 

Buy some underused industrial land near the city and build something simple and improve it over time. Will make the Nix way more financially sound, improve atmosphere and gets rid of that horrid sight of a 3/4 empty stadium on TV. 

Given Foley's vested interest in US sports, he's very likely to be thinking exactly this for Auckland.

 Yes, exactly. Keep it simple, maybe even 12k for starters. Then add to it over time if necessary. Would love it to be a Nix only stadium but maybe a bit Unrealistic? Partnering with the Hurricanes might be the way to go. Surely there must be interest from both clubs? Could have both clubs logos on the stadium, with one lighting up on game days, depending on who's playing. Like the new Sydney stadium 

Proposed-Columbus-Crew-SC-stadium-1024x518.jpg 131.79 KB

Colombus Crew in MLS, exactly what's needed here

InsulinMachine

Proposed-Columbus-Crew-SC-stadium-1024x518.jpg 131.79 KB

Colombus Crew in MLS, exactly what's needed here

that would be amazing

theprof

martinb

Are its lights up to standard? 

The lights at Newtown park got a major upgrade due to the American women training their, I dont know if they are up to TV (aleague) requirements but they are the same lights used at the stadium. Only four pillions though, os maybe another two would be needed?

here's what the lights at Newtown are like now, thanks to FIFA. Apparently the only ones better in Wellington now are the Stadium
It's not the lights that would be the issue - Newtown Park (and Martin Luckie) are both on town belt land so building anything extra than whats already there is quite difficult and thats before you look at the access and parking around the area....

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InsulinMachine

Marto

The A League needs to learn from the only other major league like ours: The MLS.

It specifies "soccer specific" stadiums to stop the exact issue we have in Wellington and the Roar have in Brisbane: Oversized stadiums that lose clubs money.

The Nix and even the 'Canes need a decent 15-20k stadium owned by them (Nix), not a Wellington council. 

Buy some underused industrial land near the city and build something simple and improve it over time. Will make the Nix way more financially sound, improve atmosphere and gets rid of that horrid sight of a 3/4 empty stadium on TV. 

Given Foley's vested interest in US sports, he's very likely to be thinking exactly this for Auckland.

 Yes, exactly. Keep it simple, maybe even 12k for starters. Then add to it over time if necessary. Would love it to be a Nix only stadium but maybe a bit Unrealistic? Partnering with the Hurricanes might be the way to go. Surely there must be interest from both clubs? Could have both clubs logos on the stadium, with one lighting up on game days, depending on who's playing. Like the new Sydney stadium 

The whole idea is Unrealistic, even if the Hurriaces were partnered in.
That new Columbus Crew stadium above cost $USD314M or $NZD509M.
It seats 20,000. Lets say a 12,000 seater stadium costs two thirds that, so about $NZD350M
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower.com_Field

The Hurricanes have no money, so you are basically asking Welnix to go to the bank and get a loan for $NZD350M. At 7% interest rate that is about $24.5M per year in interest costs alone!! Pretty sure the Nix pay less that that to lease Sky Stadium for 11-13 home games per year!!

Sure you may get the Canes as a co tenant, and some other events to host, but that extra income will hardly put a dent in your debt payments.

Then if the Nix & Canes move to a new stadium what happens to Sky losing it's anchor tenants? The WCC with more urgent issues like water, have to prop up the stadium's running costs. Ratepayers will love that. Or you let the stadium just fall into disrepair aka Athens post 2004 Olympics. Then where do the Nix take any big Auckland derby games, and playoff matches.

Not sure how these MLS teams are financing their new soccer specific stadiums, but seems a few of the clubs are owned by the Uber rich like Foley. The billionaires club. Rob Morrison and friends ain't in that strata.

Also the MLS unlike the A League seems to be booming. Looks like the clubs negotiate their own local TV rights deals, so hard to gauge if the all important TV rights income is increasing?? But the MLS itself in 2023 signed a 10 year deal with Apple to stream games. San Diego have agreed to pay a staggering $USD500M ($NZD811M) licence fee to become the latest new MLS club!! Insane money. Even Mr Foley would baulk at that.
https://www.nbcsports.com/soccer/news/san-diego-awarded-mls-franchise-after-reported-500-million-fee#:~:text=Major%20League%20Soccer%20has%20awarded,a%20club%20in%20Southern%20California.

You can't compare a growing USA giant pumpkin, to a little NZ Kiwifruit. In 30 years or more the ROF will be knocked over and Welly will get a rectangular ground with a roof. Earlier if the Wairarapa fault decides on a major move. Until then the options are very limited, enlarging Jerry Collins likely the best. 

theprof

InsulinMachine

Proposed-Columbus-Crew-SC-stadium-1024x518.jpg 131.79 KB

Colombus Crew in MLS, exactly what's needed here

that would be amazing

That's pretty similar looking to Forsyth Barr stadium in Dunedin.

When the Phoenix proposed a stadium before (and it's debatable how serious they were) the proposal was $48 million, with Lower Hutt city council paying $25 million of it and WelNix paying the rest.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/236405/costings-for-petone-stadium-revealed

Of course, there's inflation since then but I doubt anyone has the money for the sort of stadium that the Phoenix need (covered 12k, etc). It's debatable whether a bespoke stadium outside of the CBD would improve crowds or be profitable if it has to cover a large debt. People have fond memories of HuttRec but the crowds out there were lower than what the Phoenix got in Wellington and the team was top of the league and playing great football (and were just ramping up when they were in Wellington).

It's interesting to look into the economics of stadiums in NZ. A quick google shows that after almost 30 years Sky Stadium hasn't started paying off the principle on the loans it received to construct the stadium ($40 million in interest-free loans from Wellington city and Wellington region, and $35 million in interest bearing loans from ANZ--which is funny considering it was known as Westpac stadium). It makes a small profit, but only because councils pick up some of it's cost. You'd imagine the stadium is nearing the end of it's lifespan (the average age of a stadium is 30-50 years) and with Sky apparently being built on the cheap using light weight materials, I'd imagine there is quite a bit of maintenance cost coming up as it gets older.

There's also well documented financial issues with Eden Park, Forsythe Barr, etc. 

Seems pretty hard to make a stadium work in NZ without public funding, and (as has been said) the appetite of Wellington region rate payers to fund additional spending on anything other than pipes will be low.

You imagine Sky at 23 years old is only about mid point it's lifespan, especially when it's so hard to see any appetite from either local or national Govt, to take valuable money away from pipes, roads, hospitals etc to build a new one. 

Maybe in 25 years, NZ & Aussie finally to do get to host a mens football World Cup, and FIFA (who by then have a GDP bigger than Aotearoa) generously offer to rebuild Sky for free. Or the CCP as part of their Belt Road plans jump in, and Hauwei Stadium it becomes with a ring of spy, sorry cell phone towers.

But the crux is, stadiums are a mugs game. They don't really seem to make any money in little ole NZ, and they quickly depreciate in value until they become concrete dust. Smart Rob Morrison likes to invest in assets that appreciate in value, that ain't sports stadia.

In 2023 it considered itself 25 years old (construction started in 1998)

https://www.skystadium.co.nz/fanzone/news/single/sky-stadium-awarded-3-green-star-performance-rating

But, yes, it's getting on but not done yet. I'm assuming it's not going to see 50 simply because it was built with light weight materials and fairly cheaply. I remember a few years ago the council commissioned a study into putting a roof on it and they concluded that they would have to demolish the stadium and rebuild it as it was built to do what it does and didn't have much margin.