Coaching Angst - ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

It was also reported we'd be playing a friendly in February, and we saw how that worked out.

The All Whites campaign in 2010 didn't have a negative effect on the preceding Phoenix season. In fact, you could say it had the exact opposite effect.

 Ricki is called the odd man out...

"Every time a coach takes an A-League job, one of the first questions asked is about his philosophy of football.

To a man, they're so frightened to say anything but a "passing and possession-based" style because they know the reaction - from the press, public, owners - will be savage.

We all, admittedly, want our piece of Barcelona.

Now consider the type of coaches popping up around the league. Australian, of course, but educated.

Spend an hour with Graham Arnold, who has spearheaded a brilliant talent development structure at Central Coast, and you'll get a window into the mind of Guus Hiddink.

New Perth coach Alistair Edwards committed Australia's under-17 side to playing with the ball at all costs. He's a fierce advocate of possession.

So too Gary van Egmond, John Aloisi and Mulvey. They all set their teams up to play this way but the transition is proving tough. Thankfully, they seem determined to stick it out.

All three need to school their players that there's a solution to every on-field situation - it's probably the most impressive aspect to year one of Postecoglou's reign at Melbourne Victory.

Though he won't admit it publicly, Postecoglou doesn't mind losing, so long as his team correctly applies the fundamentals each week.

Over the course of the season, he's confident the right technique will bring the right results.

What Tony Popovic has done at Western Sydney is well-documented. Organised, discipline and structured are the buzzwords. Popovic doesn't reveal anything about what he does but it's easy to see how he operates.

He's visibly demonstrated why a coach with a deep-seated philosophy and an unrelenting desire for success is the real marquee signing for any club.

True leadership is being able to generate collective sacrifice whilst also coaxing the best from each player. He has this in spades.

Wellington's Ricki Herbert is one coach hanging dangerously close to the exit door, most likely because his squad haven't been as disciplined or enterprising as recent years.

Put simply, other clubs have wised up. Wellington haven't adapted and are paying the price.

Perhaps instead of second-guessing Herbert at training, the owners should invest in paying for the coach to educate himself from the game's best thinkers.

That's what Postecoglou did. Arnold, as well, and Popovic, too, for that matter.

Guess which teams are in the A-League's top three this season?

Calm down. It was an off-the-cuff remark about what would appear to be, in the light of our recent form, a rather delusional comment from Ricki.

100 new posts, and its still the same people saying exactly the same things. Shock. 

Yeah I think she's dug in too deep. Termy and some others don't agree, yet put across well-measured arguments. Doloras...not so much.

 Crap, all I do is try to tone down some of the toys-out-of-pram rhetoric (while making it clear that I'm not actually opposed to a new coach). Exactly what argument am I losing? The argument that a new coach right now would make everything better?

let me say first off that I believe that a change of management personnel is required. Ricki and co have had years now to produce a decent football team and from challenging in the playoffs for the last few years we are now going backwards. This i believe is the 'stale factor' and why we need a change in management. Ricki has done his job and another needs to take up the reins. I guess my concern is that for the last god knows how many posts about a dozen forum members have just constantly rehashed the same arguments of for or against Ricki and Welnix and those arguments are now even dividing the fan base. Is it time to wrap up this thread of coaching angst for a couple of weeks and take stock of our league position, upcoming games, aspirations etc etc and give this a rest for now? before

This is of course just a personal opinion.........................

Your arguments aren't based on anything people actually say. No one has said a new coach will make everything better. You ignore all the rational arguments people make and latch on to one or two troll comments and then paint everyone with that brush. You gleefully claim everyone was wrong about Tim Brown, because we're not doing well without him - as if that magically exonerates him for anything he did when he was playing. When Lochhead goes and we lose a game, I expect you will do the same with him.

You make generalisations on what everyone thinks which isn't reality. It's not about whether Ricki should stay or go, it's fine to think he should stay. But what's wrong with people wanting a new coach if they give reasons for it? I don't see the problem you obviously see with this opinion.

You don't tone down anything; you tone everything up.

I've said, what, 10 times(?) that I am in favour of a new coach, but there's no guarantee it will be better. People make arguments on why they think Ricki should go - you attack the people that make the arguments, but your counter-argument is "we might not get anyone better", which isn't really an argument. OF COURSE THIS IS TRUE. It's like saying "you might get hit by a bus tomorrow, so there's no point doing such and such".

But no, we're all "SACK RICKI!!!!!" cos we're "haters" and foaming at the mouth and everything. Whatever.

I love the way you take what I've said, exaggerate it slightly and then fire off an indignant response! It's like you're not even arguing with me anymore, but some hyper-real version of me that you've created :)

Off course my line is evolving, the situation is evolving. I certainly wouldn't be calling for Ricki to go if we were in the top 4. But we're not in the top 4 are we?

Nor did I say that a coach has no influence, or that last is the best we should ever hope for. What I have said is that over the long run, we - like every other A-League team - should expect to finish 5th or 6th on average. Once every ten years or so we should be able to win the league and once every ten years or so we should expect a season like the one we're having. But the realistic expectation we should have of any Nix coach in a 10-team salary-capped league is to finish around 5.5 on average (Ricki has achieved 6.2 prior to this season). If the only performance measure we impose on the coach is to win championships (or even regularly finish in the top 4) then we are just not set up to deliver on that and we will burn through a shit-load of coaches and money, possibly bankrupting the club.

Even if we get a new coach I think we need to seriously address our expectation levels. Probably the best thing a new coach could do is resurrect our record at home. That would make a huge difference to attendances, finances, and as we've seen in the past it at least creates a platform for pushing on into the play-offs on a regular basis.

Then why not do this instead of acting like everyone is crazy? I'm not getting it because you haven't been clear.

You need to be more specific with your attacks.

PS.The stopped clock analogy works for you too though: don't criticise anyone, that way if something good happens, everyone was wrong for doing so. This is what grates; the whole "haha you were wrong" thing you do.

PPS. this is all in good fun :smileything

why??? it's fun. It's a forum; it's all mental masturbation anyway.

not mental for me....

I have tried to make some attempt to give some thought  to my arguments about why Ricki is not the right person to continue coaching the Nix. It certainly is not because I have any personal animosity towards the guy.....as someone has suggested. I admire what he has done for the Nix and the AW's. I certainly think he is the best guy to coach the AW's for this WC campaign. His traditional coaching strengths of putting out sides that are hard to break down and well disciplined, absolutely suit games against superior opposition. He often has not had the best support. In an ideal world he should be able to go to watch live some of the CONACAF????? games to get a more in depth knowledge of our likely opposition for the November playoffs. However as much as admire his AW work I don't think he now has the skills to successfully coach an A-League side that could challenge for the A-League title.

Doloras..... we love you dearly and these forums would be a worse place without your feisty posts but perhaps you could take the time to write a couple of paragraphs and tease out your arguments about the current coaching situation. Try not to mention what you think others might be thinking. Maybe then some of us can get a better grasp of where you are coming from.

yeah mixture for me.

yeah that's what I was getting at.

Some of us have very boring jobs

yes!!!

Some of the most honest and pragmatic comments I've read in this thread.

Just my opinion. before anyone launches into the "accepting mediocrity" or "we should be expecting to win it.." type rants, It's not about accepting mediocrity, it's about accepting exactly wher we stand in the bigger A League picture. We, at the moment, have got a lot of hurdles to get over just to be anywhere near on a level playing field with most of the other A League teams.

In reply to Cosimo:

a) It's certainly not that I don't criticise anyone. I'm certainly in the SHUT UP GARETH brigade, and I'm no fan of Lia or Lochhead and will not miss them if they go. Also, Manny, Siggy and Dura have sucked this year compared to previously, and I'd like more discussion on why that might be.

b) My thoughts on the coaching situation: I have none. I have no insight into what goes on in the Nix dressing room. The closest I got was watching the open training at Eden Park and all I noticed was that the passing was not much different to what it's been in games, i.e. mediocre. I suppose my main point of contention is that it's clear that the existing Phoenix squad have lost heart, but is that Ricki's fault for being a delusional goose, Welnix's for trying to shift the team culture, or the players for being lazy and/or old? 

I certainly think that a new coach might help, or it might not, but there seems to be a view that part of the role of a professional football coach is to be Nicholas Cage in The Wicker Man, sacrificed to the footballing gods in return for their favour. If we get a new coach, let it be as part of an all-around holistic approach to reform at the Nix, which will have to include somehow putting a rocket up the existing core of long-term players who have clearly lost something this year.

The other thing about sacking Ricki altogether is it means effectively sacking the AW coach (or making him part time) as well, because the Nix subsidise his wages. If Ricki gets "kicked upstairs" at the Nix (DoF or some such) while still coaching the AWs that might be a good compromise.

Cool.

Although you don't need to be in the dressing room to have an opinion on the coaching, surely? You can see what the team is trying to do in a game, or trying not to do.

And the fact you have no opinion on the coaching situation is kinda my point. Most people on here do, and that's good I think. Pretty lame forum without actual opinions. It could just have announcements I guess, but that's for the official website.

Well, it's my personal issue that I get combative when I think people are being unnecessarily nasty.

I keep hearing the fact that no one has named a suitable replacement if the Welnix do decide a change of coach is needed. I would hope that in a sport as global as football where there is something like 2,000 professional teams that surely they can find someone. Though the A-League does have some differences to leagues, at the end of the day it is just another football league which im sure most coaches can adapt to. We don't have to have an Australian or a Kiwi (though im sure that would be the preference). Eg Toronto FC hired an ex player from the premier league. No one would have seen that coming.

If the Welnix fail at this then I agree with anyone who has the opinion that the Welnix don't know what they are doing.

I put this in another coaching Fred... it's outta control:

The answer is dependant on what the organisation is trying to achieve and how they're trying to achieve it (I'm not sure they know themselves tbh). And, whether Ricki is still "around" as I believe if he is, then they'll be more likely to take the cheap option a punt on a coach with no A-league experience.

I'd like to see RH hang around (and don't believe for a moment he won't) and getting an Aussie coach (assuming Greenie stays as assistant). This will also help us attract half decent Aussie players... and yes, I know there's been exceptions (ie: Dura) but how many have we brought in since LT moved on?... A couple of kids (one of which has stated we're nothing but a shop window - and good luck to him), and other clubs rejects/journeymen. If we want to be competetive (win the league competetive) it's imperative that we attract 2-3 Aussies who are starting 11 quality (and I don't mean VL17 level). They'll have options with other clubs so if we can't sell them the dream/environment we've no chance. It's not like the FFA will help us out.

The balance will be crucial, and it's not a level playing field. Yet.

So do the Victory board have no idea what they are doing, because after they undertook a 'worldwide search for a replacement for Merrick, they hired their youth team coach? No. They failed for one season, but made haste to correct their mistake and hired the best manager the league has ever had.

Didnt say they failed. They got someone from overseas, but were also aware that they could potentially get the best coach in the A League, so not surprisingly they went for the latter.

I struggle to see the latter happening for the Phoenix though.

So who would be a good replacement? (I'm not using this as a way to say 'don't sack ricki' before it descends into that again. I'm very much on the fence, or wouldn't mind either way). 

Look I'm not saying I know, Im saying that its a very big world out there and im sure if you look hard enough you can find someone. How this got twisted into me saying that Victory failed I have no idea. Just saying that even though Greenacre isn't an option, even though we havent got a youth team coach that can step up, even though there aren't any great options within NZ or any potential options in Australia, lets not forget that football isn't played just in our corner of the world.

Paul Okon, former A League assistant coach and current Oz Under 20 coach will be signed by an A League club this year, according to an informed post on here. He's the man. Probably in our price range.    

The record of overseas coaches in this league is not exactly a ringing endorsement for them. 

Witness that every Australian side is now coached by a homegrown product.

Testify brother.

"Overseas" is a tricky concept when in reference to us, of course. I wouldn't want to exclude the idea that an Aussie coach could do a job. As long as it's not Miron.

Agreed but most people are saying they don't like whats on offer for what is remaining of the homegrown prospects. So where does that leave us? I also don't believe that because the past overseas coaches have failed that we put a line through that option altogether . I believe that its more a reflection that when coaches have been selected in the past from overseas they have recruited badly. With the League growing in all aspects it starts to became a better option for overseas coaches, which will encourage better quality coaches to put their hands up.

I think that we all need to be a little more open minded about where our coach is going to come from. Seems to me that we are scared of any home grown Kiwi's, any australian coach that isn't already commited to another team and anyone from overseas. If we introduce all that criteria we have already ruled out everyone, and thats why so many people are saying that there is no one out there to do the job. Well obviously there won't be anyone if we create all these barriers. We need to start being a little more open minded if we do want to replace Herbert.

End of the day the Welnix are going to have to take a gamble of some sorts if they won' to replace Ricki Herbert. We are never going to find the perfect candidate. The perfect candidates end up coaching teams like Melbourne Victory.

I am in the firm belief that there has to be someone out there that can add more to the Phoenix than what Herbert is currently adding. I just don't buy the excuse that there is just no one out there.

I'm certainly not in the "if you can't name a replacement then shut up about sacking Ricki" camp. It's not like there are websites like there are for players which tell you which ones are currently looking for work. If there was an appropriate coach out there it's not certain that we'd know about it.