Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA (Part 2)

Disagree on this one - a major point that Rob Morrison was making last night was that professional football (which in NZ amounts to the Phoenix) is treated as an anomaly or exception by NZF. This seems to be basically because the Nix play in an Aussie comp, but the fact is they are now a major stakeholder in NZ football, and every part of NZ football from juniors up. The NZ Football statutes were even changed to specifically recognise Professional Club(s) as a stakeholder and give them voting rights, so why not follow that logic all the way through and get representation of professional football on the NZF Board? Someone could be co-opted tomorrow and the arrangement ended just as quickly if it didn't work out. In fact, if the Federations saw enough value in it they could engineer that outcome without NZF head office being able to do anything about it anyway (eg. Capital Football could nominate a member of Welnix for the NZF Board and if they got enough votes at congress they'd be on). Would you still be against it if it was the result of a democratic process being followed?

From the Phoenix perspective their board is essentially co-opted anyway and getting someone from NZF would be an olive branch more than anything but I can't see the harm. They've already got Noah Hickey and Mark Chote on there for their football expertise why not someone who can actually speak for NZF? The only real downside would be that both organisations would have to stop bitching about each other in private but wouldn't that be constructive?

I do admit that it seems unlikely but for bad reasons rather than good ones.

Posted in error

Link?

Also Lonegunman if this is the link if it was to my post you requested the link.

I post this to highlight what seems to be the accepted wisdom of many posters on this forum that the AFC issues are to quote some a , smokescreen, FFA excuse making, and other posts similar. It also shows very clearly that the Nix’s approval to play in the A-League ends in 2020 thus the reason for only a four year offer being able to be made.

From a post on the article...""""just as some background, John is one of the most knowledgeable football journalists in Asia and has a feel as to the mood in the halls in Kuala Lumpur. The article more or less reflects the mood of the AFC in relation to this issue"""…

The article headlines reads.. https://www.theroar.com.au/2015/11/12/wellington-phoenix-are-an-oceaniac-problem-in-asian-football

“””Wellington Phoenix are an Oceaniac problem in Asian football””

This article on the Roar that to date had been quite supportive of the Nix’s in general has most posters saying why keep the Nix.

Within the context also of don’t shot the messenger issues pertaining to KPI’s were first raised roughly two years ago and late last year in particular. I personally posted on this and then stopped as I was told it was BS I was only negative etc so roughly in January I only posted rarely.

But to put some context in the debate I have not seen to date on this forum [stands by for screams] let’s look at the FFA claim on funds etc and allow for the non FFA funds received because they play in the A-League

FFA directly pay 2.55 million to the Nix as they do all other clubs to fund wages and because the Nix play in the A-League and are broadcast across Australia and highlights packages are shown across about 100 nations the Nix can get sponsorships well beyond if they were a NZ team so say 1 million, further the Nix can attract between 80 and 100 K fans through the gates because they pay in the A-League at say $ 20.00 per head so maybe another 1.8 million.

FFA need to sell the A-League and what adds value is ratings it brings in extra sponsorships and shirt and kit sales. In NZ the media exposure of Football has hardly moved since Hal started and when you add the comical errors made by NZF like playing ineligible players it just adds to the cry’s from the AFC about why do you support these guys..

Finally Frank Lowy is going in days he has fought long and hard for a NZ team… he is going and its 11 years since he argued for a NZ side playing in Asia maybe his son will not share either the passion or desire to take the fight to the AFC if he can show no real improvement in the KPI’s.

I kinda realise this will not be a popular post however if all you guys wanta do is say everything is BS and smoke screens with an evil FFA run by ancient and deceitful war lord assisted by a robot doing his biding a slave of Foxs then you continue to ignore meaning do nothing to solve the issues ...  

edited

Hey Midfielder, I generally like the fact that you take the time to come on here and don't share the opinion on your posts that some others do, but saying that I don't think this article is correct.

David Dome was on the radio immediately after this exploded and said that the AFC told the Phoenix and the  FFA that the ideal length for an extension is 8 - 10 years, so that is why we only asked for 10 and not 20. He said that the AFC is not the issue here.

Compared to the commercial side of things the AFC issue is overblown. 

That article is extremely poorly written, really wishy woshy and hard to read, and is just conjecture with no facts. Of course as we know where there's smoke there's fire so there is of course a problem but it will be within one faction and not the entire confederation, and relative to the immediate concerns this is a non issue. He also directly contradicts himself by saying the AFC won't split any time soon, and then in the same paragraph that one high ranking person in the AFC told him that it will split within the next decade. 

Otherwise you're just repeating the commercial realities that we all know about and WelNix is working to address.

But lets just focus on the things that we can do, like increase numbers and increase awareness of the team. We have absolutely no way of influencing the AFC.

What has pointed you in that direction? I haven't got that impression at all, but then I may have missed something or interpreted something in a different way to you. 

I think all those who are thinking of youth development and NZ football endorsing the Pheonix academy as being the official national academy for the elite youth and being the answer to the problem are delusional and wide off the mark.

So wide they have hit the corner post.

Australia football doesn't give a flying fudge about our youth development. Why would they be concerned about anything else then their own youth?

All they are concerned about is the coin and are simply saying the Jerry Maguire line "show me the money"

Where that money comes from they don't care a flying fudge.

1: NZ football

2: Sky

3: The owners pockets 

It's simply a shake down to see what coins spill from which pockets 

I am however thinking that the party with most to lose is number one above. 

If the Phoenix go then then the current occupiers of NZ football are toast

You're right Tegal. I think I read Feverish's post this morning and leapt to a conclusion. It's hard to work out what is actually going on by joining the dots. I'm going to shut up now.

Nah you're right, it's quite hard to piece some of this together when we only have little bits of information. I'm not saying you're definitely right or wrong, just that I hadn't seen Anything which made me think that way. 

how's that splinter?

Thanks Midfielder to posting that. Appreciate it.

Sky and BT contribute.

Dumb and Dumber

The reason we are saying that is that Rob Morrison said that NZF is skint and can't pay so they are looking for other initiatives from them to help. Ultimately putting all resources in the Phoenix camp means that more money flows towards the Phoenix academies and the Phoenix get more players to sign up and potentially onsell. 

I wonder if it really goes like this though, if NZF puts all their eggs in the Phoenix basket then they can't afford to let them fail and will do everything in their power including getting the OFC to put pressure on FIFA to make sure that the Phoenix survive.

The reason Tzar Peter the Great built St. Petersberg and moved the capital there was that he knew when he died that other Tzars would not care much for the unproductive land that he'd fought so hard for in his compulsion to make the Russian empire more European. He decided that if he made it the capital though then the empire would be so invested in it that they would never let it fall.

I get that, and I agree. But if it's a choice between NZF contributing and the nix survive or not having a professional team at all? 

None, just a hypothetical question. 

I'm agreeing with you, but that may be the exception. 

Phoenix want the nzf pathway to be their pathway. Not sure how much they have tried to shove that down NZFs throat though 

Dont get how in any way the Phoenix and the situation in New Zealand can in any way be compared  to the English FA and what they do or dont do.

Just dont understand why so many seem to be scared of what might happen if the Phoenix became more involved with NZ Football in whatever way. I for one cant see a repeat of South Africa  happening again if NZ Football and those involved dont get off there butts and for once make some positive steps.

Nothing wrong with the Nix becoming more involved but it can't be the other way around. The 2 organisations have different madates and while the overall desired outcome that we all want is better football and retention of a pro team in the A League, NZF have more pressing priorities and different masters to account to.

I have to disagree, for me the main priority is to make sure we do not lose this country's only professional team in the A-League and if that means the other 2 organisations need pull there socks up then so be it. I am pretty sure that NZF knows how to multi-task and focus on the ASB league and the Nix and national teams

yeah I don't see the difference either - produce/attract good players should be the mandate from both

Arghhh piss off kient

Like the idea of 4. Putting on 90minutes of match coverage isn't adequate but combine a news package with player interviews in a weekly show would work so long as you have someone sensible running it. It comes down to the investment in NZ football so this is where the NZF might come in. I know rugby is the national game but football is the largest participation sport for the U16s isn't it.

On 5. the money involved in EPL rights is massive and its likely that Sky will outbid PLP for the NZ rights next time around. The format of the PLP offering is superior to Sky and a model for a NZ football package perhaps.    

I think that is my choice rather than design. The Ole message is that NZF are the problem, not part of any solution.

Indeed but the posts ahead it were talking about the Phoenix having a monopo0ly on youth developement and Ole are  clear example of an organisation that will always operate beyond the Phoenix and/or NZ Football.

Do we know what viewership numbers are for clubs that play Nix here compared to other games.  If they are low..and lets assume they are, then why not just schedule the games here at more realistic bums on seat times for Nix.  The loss in TV audience might not be that great but will offset in terms of at match viewers?

Our viewer numbers in Aus compare well to a number of the Australian based teams across the season so you would think it's worth them driving timeframes.

Correspondingly what do Chelsea or Arsenal contribute to English football?  It's not like either of them are swimming in English players is it?  I understand the point you are trying to make but the value that the Phoenix offer to NZ Football vs what individual clubs offer to the English FA really isn't commensurate.

I think there is a bigger picture that the Phoenix are talking about from NZ Football as well.  I got a vibe that they want to see the All Whites with a meaningful programme and profile as that make it easier to sell the Phoenix.  

Less public fudge-ups so the game as a whole is in a positive light helps people sell the Phoenix.

IIRC the Phoenix have a record for the most players a single club has had represented in a world cup squad, they also produced 7 players for the under 17 team that did so well in Chile.

That is how important the Phoenix are. Without them we wouldn't have qualified for the World Cup, and we would probably have finished last in our pool in the under 17 world cup. And things are only getting better.

You do what you can to keep an asset that is performing so well even if it means swallowing your pride and compromising.

Look, I think we all want NZF to be better organised than they have been in the past and we all want the Nix to remain and compete in the A League but lets not sell our souls to the Devil and insist that NZF spend our money [that they don't have a great deal of] or focus their attention on making the Nix successful when there are plenty of other grass roots/elite/development programmes that they need to focus on too.

The cold reality of the situation is that the Phoenix is a business and it is up to them to sustain that business, good on them in trying to shame NZF into helping them to do that, it is not NZF's job to do that. If FFA simple don't want them in the competition, then nothing is going to change that.

Ifill came to NZ for the Nix right?

If so then him now being a player\coach for Wairarapa United wouldn't be the case without the Nix.