Auckland City FC - Thanks a Trillion

Dickinson, Tade, Krisna, Bale, Iwata, Irving, Berlanga, Billen, Marquez

#ACFCprovidingpathwaysforkiwis

(Should we include Browne who is PNG tied and ineligible for NZ and Burfoot who was not picked for U20s because not eligible and lists himself as British?)

What utter nonsense. With some 40% of NZ citizens currently not born in this country you're saying they're not Kiwis, no matter how long they've lived here. We're a nation of immigrants Leggy and JV, or haven't you noticed. A number of All Whites like Tommy Smith, Storm Roux, Andrew Durante - you saying they shouldn't be playing for NZ? McGlinchey only spent eight months in NZ after he was born. Does that make him a NZer when someone who spent most of their life here but was born elsewhere isn't? You and JV really need to get off this narrow-minded wagon. If someone is a NZ citizen, they're a Kiwi, no matter where they're originally born. To say Pritchett, who has spent most of his life here and played for ACFC since its formation in 2006 (and the Kingz before that) isn't a Kiwi is plain stupid, even for you guys.

yep or stand next to that proud kiwi Durante...

+1.

PS  See Tony Smith's article on Canterbury football on www.stuff.co.nz - only 3 players in Canterbury men's team are

 Kiwi born.  And what about Wellington Olympic? Lower Hutt? Wairarapa Utd? Get over it. If Kiwis were good enough, they'd be in these teams.

PS If you're so hot on 'Kiwi born' players JV, Leggy, why aren't you both pushing Clapham's case for the Nix instead of the very opposite? You telling me he's not up to Australian journeyman standard?

Regarding the game against Raja Casablanca:

I watched at 10pm last night and it was a lot less one sided as some of the posts here have suggested. I thought Auckland had the better of the first 20 mins and then similarly in the second half they probably had a good 20 mins where they looked like the better team. Raja were faster but in terms of structure, I thought Auckland were the better team. Perhaps this was because Raja's coach was so new or perhaps simply that Ramon is a better coach. I don't think any Auckland players played badly and stand outs were Angel, Roy, Cristobal and perhaps Dicko to some extent in terms of effort.

I thought Auckland were miles better than last year against Hiroshima.

Auckland were unlucky not to get a result and this should really be taken as a wake up call to NZF and the NZ public that there is more to life than the EPL and the A-League. Sadly, what will likely happen, is that the media and the public will crawl back into their holes and that's the last of a national league team we'll hear about until next year, should an NZ team qualify.

So tell me how many of these players (Dickinson, Tade, Krisna, Bale, Iwata, Irving, Berlanga, Billen, Marquez) are Kiwis again? You can use any definition you like to suit your argument. Please. I insist.

Stop trying to bullshit the issue (which is typical of the ACFC knitting crew). I can accept players like Danko etc but don't sit and toss stones about how the Phoenix are an Australian club for Australian journeymen and all the other bullshit over the years when you lot can't find two Kiwis to rub together in this "nation of immigrants where 40% are born overseas"

If you want to talk about Kiwis and the pathways your club provides for those Kiwis, we can, but don't list those guys above as Kiwis and hide from the fact that the only thing Kiwi about your club is the immigrant nation its located in.

#ACFCprovidingpathwaysforkiwis

And still you avoid the question.

Ah JV, still on your volksgemeinschaft bandwagon. Where a person is born they have no say over, where they choose to live and become resident is what matters. Anyone who is born overseas and chooses to live in NZ and become a resident is a Kiwi, end of story. Your racial purity preoccupations are from another era. If Sam Burfoot and David Browne choose to remain in NZ then they become Kiwis, I hope they do. Just like Jason Hicks. Likewise any of the other ACFC "imports". I know Danko and James Pritchett have the shame of not being born here but haven't they served their time? Michael McGlinchey has spent a total of eight months as a baby in NZ and qualifies as an All White. Many of the great All White side of 1982 were born in Britain.

I'm proud of the fact that ACFC is a multi-ethnic club, it gives it heart and flavour. The supporters come from all over the world. No wonder you must hate going to Kiwitea Street.

PS - in case you're twitching JV, I'm a third generation New Zealander who also calls London and Los Angeles home.

And again, for idiots like you who cannot read and blatantly avoid the elephant question in the room.

"So tell me how many of these players (Dickinson, Tade, Krisna, Bale, Iwata, Irving, Berlanga, Billen, Marquez) are Kiwis again?"

You chose to avoid it because you know they are not.

There is a reason that no one likes your supporters or your club. Everytime you post, you just reinforce it.

No-one likes ACFC, that's a bit strong JV for the best supported team in the national league? I don't think you should tar most other football supporters in this country with your peculiar prejudices. I think of lot of people in NZ football appreciate what ACFC has done.

Would it make you feel better if non-NZ born players at ACFC wore something stitched to their shirt - I know perhaps a yellow star with "import" on it. They could also sit at the back of the team bus and have a different changing room. They certainly mustn't be allowed to feel equal.

And yet you still can't answer it.

So tell me how many of these players (Dickinson, Tade, Krisna, Bale, Iwata, Irving, Berlanga, Billen, Marquez) are Kiwis again?

I have 2 points Ali which I will lay out now we have finally gotten somewhere with it.

1: (which is mainly more about where your angle is Ali) You are a massive proponent of the ASBP and supporting what is in your backyard (the search function is great for that kind of thing) I can respect that but how can you get people along to a team that people cannot identify with because there is no local players? I know that exact same argument can be thrown at the Phoenix and fair enough but the difference is exposure and media - exactly what the ASBP does not have. People can identify with the Sigmunds, Brockies etc (AWs if you like) because its an 'NZ team' and those players have profiles being AWs. Now you are essentially trying to get people down to watch that are football people already (cause no one else knows what's going on because of lack of media) so why do the people from Mangere, Western Springs, Mt Albert, Ellerslie etc (and Chopah has mentioned this too in a round about way) want to go along and support a team of players they don't even know or have any buy in with. Because of good football? They can get that on TV for free and its better football. The CWC game, there was only 3 Kiwis starting I think (Tamati, Ivan and Danko). Ivan is a beacon for the club in that respects but that's it. Why should these football people whom have time on their hands, go and support a team of what is effectively imports that get paid when they shouldn't. If you are looking at local supporters, people have to generally identify with the club. Most people don't identify with ACFC because a: Its Central in disguise (just like Waitakere is as well) and b: No one knows these players. I understand that you can say 'well why do people support Man U etc' - because of exposure. Would exposure fix the problem? In some respects Yes (for getting people along to the ASBP in general but then you have to fight the quality of football offered too) but probably not to supporting your team because again, other than Ivan, there really is no players that are identifiable or can relate to. Understand that this is not a 'you need to find a solution to this Ali' but more a 'here is the problem and why I think the import situation does not help it'

2: (and more the general one) The Phoenix were accused by ACFC supporters of being an Aussie club in an Aussie league and doing nothing for NZ football because they bought in Aussie journeyman. The supporters were quite vocal on going and watching a team of Kiwis that were local etc. Looking at ACFC, how does what they are doing, help provide pathways to Kiwi footballers when there are so many imports? Lets forget the cash into the ASBP because the competition is that fucked it relies on an NZ team going to CWC to survive on that payout. If what the Phoenix was doing for so long was wrong, how does a ACFC, a team that is arguable in a more realistic competition to aim at for most footballers with talent in NZ, (ASBP being easier to get into than HAL) help provide those pathways that when its obvious you can't get in because of the amount of imports? You club has a fantastic coach and coaches a fantastic style (relative to what traditionally happens in NZ) Would it not be better for football in NZ to have Kiwis playing and learning to play that way than stacking a side full of imports?

The bullshit point I wanted to make is out of the way and finally its been acknowledged because while I can see positives to imports, what's going on at ACFC is not good for the game in terms of pathways for Kiwi players, local support etc. If you feel that you disagree with that, that's fine, but then you can't throw stones at the Phoenix for doing the same thing.

Smithy has just validated my point in the another thread

Groan - this is getting ridiculous. Players like Andrew Milne, David Browne, Sam Burfoot, Roy Krishna are all NZ residents as far as I'm concerned and are developing talents in this country. They're the future of ACFC. Chris Bale and Darren White are Brits who have been playing in NZ for some considerable time - both came to ACFC from other NZ clubs. So did Tade and the much missed Correles. Most of them have jobs and families here or are going to school here. The fact that NZ football is full of immigrants shouldn't be a surprise because rugby is the main domestic game here. To brand immigrants as imports is nonsense JV and you know it. Bilen, Iwata, Marquez, Berlanga are out and out imports sure. Would I prefer Hogg to Iwata, sure, but on playing ability not on ethnic purity lines. If Berlanga decides to become a NZ citizen then he's a Kiwi player to me.

The say a Kiwi player has to be born here should be treated with the contempt it deserves. Far from proving your case, it's making you look foolish JV. Even worse.

Yet again, you simply dodge the question.

I'm not branding immigrants as imports or that you have to be born here to be a Kiwi at all so stop trying to confuse the issue with your bullshit.

Simply stop sidestepping and answer it. You only do that cause you know I am right. Ali has even helped you out and agreed with me - those players are imports. Full stop.

You can try to make me look like a prejudice old fuck all you like (and you are failing by the way) but the point still remains and you refuse to address it. You only do that because you know I am right.

The very fact alone you include Krishna as a Kiwi is simply laughable and shows exactly where your point is (I'll help you out - you don't have one)

Benefits the majority of football fans???? You really are deluded.

What percent of the football fans in NZ attend ASBP games? I would hazard a guess it sits somewhere between 0 and fuck all. Tell me how that benefits the majority of fans? NRFL gets more fans in a round that you would get at 2 ASBP rounds.

Also UEFA are changing the laws to have more local based players in their teams so your argument just went flying out the window - once again.

I listed some points a page back Ali, dodging those too are we?

Repeat post.

^ I believe Vader had an argument with one of the ACFC ex-Bloc 5 supporters at some distant point in the past (3/4 years ago?) and it has fuelled his anti-ACFC antagonism if not loathing ever since. Sad.

#ACFCprovidingplayersforthephoenix

Why should we support it?  it's the best quality league available live in NZ (outside Nix home games) but honestly I would rather watch some footy on TV most of the time because the quality is too low for me to watch as a casual fan without a tie in point - what would be my tie in point?  A young player from my club getting a chance would be a reason for me to go to every game (i did when East Auckland were in the league because we had one player in the team)

Do you understand where I am coming from here?

Also thinking about it now I supported Waitakere for a little while as well as we had a guy playing there.

Yeah, zero interest in watching a bunch of journeymen from overseas take money out of our game. 

But I like the idea of the ASBP, so try to get along to it when I happen to have the day off work (barely ever) even though I feel no real connection to TW. 

A team that is actually representative of the clubs in Wellington would be my ideal scenario. I can understand some overflows from clubs outside of the teams region, if they're willing to move to the city (or commute) to play for the summer. 

Why should we support it?  it's the best quality league available live in NZ (outside Nix home games) but honestly I would rather watch some footy on TV most of the time because the quality is too low for me to watch as a casual fan without a tie in point - what would be my tie in point?  A young player from my club getting a chance would be a reason for me to go to every game (i did when East Auckland were in the league because we had one player in the team)

Do you understand where I am coming from here?

[/quote] Chopah you have summed it up perfectly. Just as there are about 3000 dedicated Phoenix fans who will turn up regardless, there are about 500 dedicated ACFC fans who will always turn up. We all know there are tens of thousands casual fans and players in Auckland, but they have zero connection to ACFC, Waitakere or any other possible entity and it would take something amazing to get them along (me included).

I used to go to National League games when I was young and single, but now married with children, and just as busy as everyone else, I cant justify 3-4 hours out of my weekend to go and watch a game of football. Call me what you want but that is reality - you ask 1000 people why they wouldn't go to an ASBP game and you'll get much the same answer. Just have a look at the NPC rugby - the biggest sport by a million miles in NZ cannot get 5000 people to Eden Park.

And if you are thinking of the halcyon days of a club based national league with thousands of people you are suffering from the old syndrome of the older it gets the better it was. Yes there might have been 3-4000 people turning up on a Sunday in 1977 at Newmarket Park, but there were was literally nothing else to do and 2 TV channels to watch.

The other reality is that there are 3 levels of football fan in NZ - the diehards who spend their life on this forum and are never wrong, and will always watch their team (about 1%), the keen guys who will watch the AWs when they are in town and maybe the Phoenix (about 10%), and those who couldn't really give a stuff but have an EPL team, and probably (heaven forbid) watch other sports (about 90%)

Passion and diversity is great but for those of you in the 1% who think that the rest of NZ should wake up and start coming to all local football - it has never happened and never will

One clear and obvious classification is that there are players in the league, most obviously at ACFC, who were brought here to play football, and are paid to do it. While the ASBP remains an amateur competition, their classification and the role they play in the league will always be up for debate. And so it should be, it is a blatant breach of the rules.

I am good friends with a few former ACFC players, and one or two from the current squad. If anyone thinks that they do not discuss their respective remunerations with each other and people outside the squad, then you are wrong. If anyone thinks that there are several kiwi/NZ born/local players (call them what you will) during recent seasons who have not resented the amount paid to the Spaniards when compared to what the locals receive (if anything), then you are also wrong. 

There are some notable ACFC names who have retired or left Kiwitea St in recent years as a result of their belief that they are undervalued in a financial sense, when compared to the imports, some of whom were paid from the day they got off the plane and before they had proven themselves on the field. I have been told that the going rate for their imports has been approx $50k each per season, plus a few other things thrown in, cars, accommodation etc.

They are imports, in the same way that any professional sportsman in any professional league in the world is classified, when they are brought into play in a domestic competition. There are no coincidences or aligning of the stars for ACFC where it just so happened that a whole bunch of guys from Spain happened to arrive in Auckland at about the same time on holiday or to study or work etc and were lucky enough to find a Spanish coach who convinced them to play while they are here to keep fit etc etc.

If ACFC's next coach is Ukrainian, then with their player budget of $350k we might expect another coincidental influx of 5 or 6 Ukrainian males of approximately 23-30 yrs of age to arrive in Auckland who all happen to play football and who might be able to be convinced to play while they are here.

Call them what you want, but for want of a better classification, import makes the most sense.

It happens and has been happening for years with so called 'amateur clubs" all over this country. So what's new?

PS Read the Central League thread for latest example.

You're right. Apologies. Tell Vader to back off.