Cap Prem 2020

I wonder how many people complaining about referees have actually read the entire LOTG.

Not many would be a good guess. You should have heard the kerfuffle when I tried to explain the new(ish) offside law interpretations recently.

- absolutely not an exaggeration...

- when I say question, I mean referees are getting questioned on their decisions and this is being taken as abuse or dissent. Mental really, our coach got sent off for questioning a decision, he didn't swear at anyone or get personal but was matched for disagreeing. 

- there is no accountability.... I'll leave that one as it is  

- give them more money then.... Also why wouldn't a referee want to know how they got on for their own development... It's also provides capital footbal and the clubs with a vehicle to look over dubious calls that result in suspensions etc... if the referee doesn't want to see how he or she has gone, then no worries. But capital football could use the tapes surely  

- do you reckon, more subs for central league and cap prem....Id say there could be appetite  

But don't get me wrong, my initial message was blanket.... I watched John rowberry in Napier on the weekend and thought he was excellent  I think he has a good demeanor with players and knows how the handle the emotions of the game. I also thought Mike Steveson was good in his day also.... There are others that have been great for the game  

What's the point of questioning a referee on his decision at the time? Why stop the game? They have obviously made a judgement based on what they saw. 

What can they say? I saw it as a foul. He played in a dangerous manner. Perhaps they saw something differently from their angle than you?

At a guess, if a player/coach politely asked a ref after the game to explain a decision, I'm sure they would.

you have played a few games in your time Mate.... Are you telling me you have never questioned a referees decision? Ever?  

Give it a rest man. You wouldn't walk up to Hugo (whoever that is) after the game and tell him he was a donkey who couldn't pass a ball to save himself. Or walk up to the coach and tell him he was hopeless and got his tactics wrong. So what makes you think it's alright to tell the referee he's doing a shark job?

Honestly. That post is perhaps the most moronic I've seen on Yellow Fever and that is setting the bar about as low as it can fudgeing get.

We want more referees. We want them to be better. We want them to referee our games. But we think it's okay to abuse them.

Don't get me wrong, they don't help themselves sometimes. But "they need to be told" is a borderline criminally mental attitude. Give yourself an urgent uppercut.

What they need, in fact, is appreciation, thanks, and a high five for giving up their time. A high ten when you factor in putting up with dimwits like you. 

Wow. Where do we start? You aren't exactly in an unbiased position to be commenting on the correctness of calls in that game. (Yes, I was there).

You say it's not abuse the majority of the time. I can't comment on what the coach/bench team said as I never heard them that game, but let me quote you some "questioning" I heard from Olympic supporters/spectators at the game, including a man who also coaches a lower division Olympic team:

"You're a f**king disgrace ref." "You're a f**king waste of space ref." "Get off the f**king park." Really constructive there. Not only that, but there are younger kids there who then thought it was a good idea to copy them and start abusing the AR as well. Is that the example we are setting for kids these days?

I can say from experience that officiating in front of benches can be great when everyone on the bench is cordial and asking genuine questions; I always enjoy explaining things where appropriate. But what's not so enjoyable is the mindless, biased abuse from players and team officials who aren't happy that the game isn't going their way.

You talk about accountability, but that doesn't give you, or anyone else, the right to lambast officials when you aren't happy. You seem to have ignored the previous posts that state there was an assessor watching this game; he provides accountability. You/your club can write in; that provides accountability. In saying that, you might want to try utilising a little more civility than your post here. Players can't act like they often do then get surprised when your mouthy ramblings are ignored. 

Whilst we appreciate that you're okay with us getting paid $500 per game (more to spend at your clubrooms of course), the amount here is irrelevant. Neither you nor I should have to put up with abuse anywhere in life, regardless of the level of recompense. You even have non-refs like Tegal in this very thread stating that these attitudes put them off reffing. I can assure you that he is by no means alone.

If you want refs to be better, then we're on your side; all referees want to get better. But if that's what you're trying to achieve, you need to go back to the drawing board as your way simply isn't working. 

Come on mate. We've been friends for a long time but this is out of order.

For a start. Player accountability? What? When do you get dropped? That's how coaches get sacked at Olympic isn't it? If we're going to call a spade a spade let's not hold back.

We need to change the conversation about referees. Some of them are poor. Some of them are great. And it's not always the same ones.

I agree with paying them more. Totally. But if we're going to get them started we need to provide an environment that they actually want to be in. Okay let's make them accountable. Let's have an independent committee made up of players, referees and coaches who grades referees and reviews their performance and remunerates them accordingly - just like at work. But at the same time let's provide for mandatory red cards and bans for players who give referees attitude, who mutter shark when they walk away, who surround referees and get in their face. Let's deal with both sides.

And hey. I'm not a saint. You want accountability. I was on the Board of Capital Football. At an under 17 game I was coaching I called a referee a fudgeing cheat. He didn't send me off, he just carried on. It was disgraceful. I'm still embarrassed about it now. I've apologised to his face. Chris Canton quite rightly asked me to resign from the Board. I did. It was absolutely the right thing for him to do. That's accountability. What's your equivalent story?

*loudest longest slow clap of all time*

Isn't a slow clap what you give a comedian when you want them off stage? 

Just checking I understood. I'm done anyway. Two ranty posts in a night is my max!

Perhaps. I can't recall every game. Beside I was usually the worst player on the field so it was usually my fault we lost. Not the refs.

A major problem in football worldwide is that numerous players want to crowd around the referee to voice their opinions when a decision does not go their way.

Compare this with other sports where usually only the captain questions the referee. In addition we have coaches in on the act (usually yelling loudly from the sideline). Then we also have club officials who should know better hurling abuse.

I am amazed at some of the abuse referees have to take. I believe they are too tolerant by taking all the crap and that many should just produce a yellow when they get abused and then if it continues, the player gets shown a red.

I think I probably share a portion of Mikey's frustrations at times. 

I suggest we both form and sit on a referee players/coaches feedback panel. Just have free reign to go give comments to refs whenevs to help them improve. All in favour?

interesting that you think that by dropping me at Olympic, the coach gets sacked. I've been dropped to the second team bench... I don't see any heads rolling Mate.

Accountability is this.... When I spray my mouth like a moron, I get booked or sent off. Then I go to the judiciary and get given however amount of weeks ban plus a fine which I pay for. That's how I get made accountable and I have no problem with that. But I have seen players cop cards and sending offs for minor things then have no right to appeal if they are under a number of weeks ban. writing letters in has never been much use either. But it is what it is.

The refs are far from perfect, everyone agrees with that, but the reaction of players, the language used and the attitude portrayed is totally out of proportion to the decisions they disagree with. Yelling at a ref cause a throw doesn't go your way is ridiculous.  Ryan Harris' interaction with Anna-Marie Keighley on Saturday can only be described as disrespectful and dismissive. Talking over her, not letting her answer his question and then walking away when she was speaking to him. Thats one of the best refs in this country and he acts like a petulant child who's been taught some dirty words

If we want people to ref, these attitudes have to stop. The future of our game is as reliant on them as it is on players.

hmmm

ok let me change that to *loud robust applause*

Actually Greenie, why don't you become a ref instead. If you want to improve it, do it from the inside 

Ha. You're joking but you two would actually be perfect because when you're not all fired up in the middle of a game you're two of the people in Wellington who care the most about the game generally and would give sensible and level feedback. You've also both played at a good level. You'd both be good referees I reckon!

Some of the best refs in a lot of sports (think Glen Jackson in rugby, Paul Reiffel in cricket) are ex-players at a high level so I wholeheartedly agree with this

Some of the best refs in a lot of sports (think Glen Jackson in rugby, Paul Reiffel in cricket) are ex-players at a high level so I wholeheartedly agree with this

Sometimes you get sent for that. Mostly you get away with it. So does everyone else. Just like the referees.

I don't think "it is what it is" either.

As I see it there is a collection of problems, and both sides need to come to the table to fix them. Players and referees.

Now, in the interests of balance, the referees aren't very keen to come to the table either. I blame that almost entirely on the legacy of Barry Tasker, who was a fine (if strict) referee but who once told me "there wouldn't be a game without referees". And that attitude has pervaded.

But Jamie Cross is a different bloke. And he was an excellent referee. I think we have a golden opportunity to upgrade this whole discussion.

What if top players, like you Mikey and you (once upon a time) Greenie, said to the referees "fine, send me off, I'll take 4 weeks if I abuse a referee" but in return the referees said "righto, when we screw up, we'll drop down and referee cap 3 for a couple of weeks" and everyone found some peace with that instead of it being a big deal.

I dunno. Something has to change. Guys like Pete Linney and Jim Murphy and whoever else they are good people and they just do it for fun. So do Central League players. Or at least they should because they're not in it for the money (I hope...). It just doesn't make any sense to me. 

And it's not "the referees fault" it is a collective problem we have in the game here in Wellington and we should all be engaged in fixing it. It's a hangover (I think) from English football culture. And it's stupid.

Ex high-level players (think Paul Reiffel in cricket, Glen Jackson in Rugby, some of our local football refs in Wellington over the years) often make great officials once they've had a little training and practice, so I'd wholeheartedly agree with this.

I quite like that quid pro quo (don't be a cod and say I have the meaning wrong) Smith. 

We had a circumstance recently where a player was given a six week ban ($300 fine). Instead of taking Mikey's 'it is what it is' attitude (which I agree is the attitude that the system makes you take)- we challenged it (which is not an easy process) - and won. I'd like to think the the ref involved got a mighty metaphorical upper-cut from someone.

wow, that is the first time I have heard of that happening greenie.. I hope that didn't come off as sarcastic... How did you win that one? The problem here is if a player gets under 5 weeks you have no right to appeal. I think that's still correct. 

cos it was a load of shark. Much like a lot of stuff I have seen on Incident Reports - but I might be getting on shaky ground here haha

Pretty sure it's 3 weeks for the right to appeal.

Been reading this thread with interest. I won't comment on specific incidents, games or officials

I'll start by saying simply that, in football's case, dissent is expressing an opinion which is contrary to the referee's opinion. So, if a referee makes a decision, and it is questioned by a player, or a coach, that is dissent. That simple. Thankfully, referees tend not to stick by that very literal definition. In the vast majority of cases, players aren't cautioned for "questioning" decisions, but for the way they chose to "question" that decision. Human nature is such that what one person thinks he is expressing may not be perceived that way by the person the opinion is being expressed to. 

I saw a comment along the lines of "they need to be questioned or they think they've done a good job". It's very gracious of you to ensure that our referees don't get ahead of themselves and I'm sure the refereeing fraternity are grateful for the "questioning".

I was a referee for nearly 20 years. I refereed in Wellington before moving North and I've certainly refereed at least two people who have contributed to this discussion. I am now an assessor. I watch referees. I comment on all aspects of their performances. Objectively. I point out areas in which they can improve and I reinforce what they do well. I submit assessment reports. Those assessment reports are then looked at and discussed by several people and help to determine an overall picture of a referee's ability, progress and potential, all of which have an impact on refereeing appointments. I have also been involved in the administration side of refereeing, so I know that complaints and gripes from clubs, no matter how frivolous, are investigated. So, referees are accountable. The higher up the pecking order a referee goes, the more scrutiny he comes under and the greater the accountability.

Referees aren't perfect. I've never met a referee who claims to be perfect. I've also never met a referee who goes out on the field to have a bad game. I have never ever met a referee who is a cheat, but I've heard far too many players who felt entitled to insult a referee by calling him one. Referees, in my experience, are amongst the most self critical of football people. They analyse their mistakes personally, with assessors and at referee association meetings where they can share their experiences with fellow referees and receive support and advice. They will discuss specific incidents at these meetings and discussions will follow where views are exchanged on how situations could have been handled, or they will simply be reassured that they did the right thing. They receive coaching on all aspects of refereeing, they watch DVDs, videos, they have to meet certain criteria before they progress to the next level. 

Referees should be accountable because players get booked and sent off for "minor things", and they have no right of appeal? Are those "minor things" listed in the LOTG as cautionable or send off offences? Taking your shirt off after a goal is a "minor thing", you'll still cop a YC for doing it. The right of appeal has nothing to do with the referee. 

Over the years, two things became very obvious to me: 1. The vast majority of players don't actually know that much about the Laws Of The Game and, 2. The player's and coaches who complain the loudest about bad referees were usually the same players and coaches who had the worst disciplinary records. In the clubrooms after a game I once asked a player, who I'd cautioned for dissent during the game, if he ever fancied becoming a referee when he finished playing. His reply was "F**k no, I couldn't handle the abuse". Ironic? Or just hypocritical? There is a culture of referee abuse. It's always the "bad decision" that the referee made which gets the comments in the clubrooms, not the fact a team couldn't score in 90 minutes, or missed the penalty. Referees are fair game, they are there to be abused, it is a player/coach/supporter's right to constantly argue with every decision the referee makes, abuse them, swear at them, belittle them. That's just the way it is, right? It's part of the game, right? Actually, it's not, but the sad fact is that some of what I've read on here simply reinforces the viewpoint that abusing referees is all good. "It stops them thinking they've done a good job". 

Referees make mistakes, so do players and coaches. There probably should be closer dialogue between referees and clubs, if nothing else it might help to break down the "them and us" attitude that seems to exists in certain cases. Believe it or not, the vast majority of referees do want to constantly look at ways of improving. You want to question a decision, have a drink with a ref after a game in the clubrooms and have a civilised conversation about it. It's a cliche, but I certainly never changed a decision because a player gave me a gobful and told me I'd got it wrong.

The Olympic Club involved in an apparent shark storm surrounding referees. Now there is a surprise.

Maybe prior to any review of referee's  you should have a look at the culture within your club that allows these issues to crop up year after year.

Hearing chat that Karori didn't show at the NW clubrooms after their win on Saturday. Would have to wonder what they would have done if they'd lost.

Or was it a dash to the airport straight after the game?

club box at the All Blacks

Maybe you can come and introduce yourself and give us some tips on how we turn the culture around. I am always up for discussions about the club and what we can be doing better.... It's something that I am really passionate about  

Refs are not perfect. They will make mistakes. Every decision against me is not a plot against me or my club. I will accept the decision and move on. *Repeat x 100 before every training and match*

That'll be a pretty good start

But this not so much. I think there is a perception in the refereeing community that is a bit like the Police. That they are the upholders of the law and there are no shades of grey or interpretation in that.

In fact I had a conversation with a referee the other day about exactly that point. He was emphatic that the laws are black and white. You've either broken the rules or not. But of course that is seldom the case. 

What you've said above highlights a part of the disconnect. Whatever referee assessors are seeing, it can be quite far removed from what experienced players and coaches are seeing. And those shades of grey don't get discussed. But they should. They must, if we're to close the gap and break down the "them and us" attitude.

Perhaps referee assessors should meet in committee with senior coaches and players to discuss interpretations and viewpoints over a pint once a month.

I have looked on the Olympic AFC website and you do not appear to have a code of conduct displayed. I would suggest that if you do not have one introduce a code of conduct. The code should specifically mention conduct towards referees

Next step is to appoint an independant disciplinary committtee consisting of people of high integrity and enforce it with firm penalties.

There is not one other club that does this. Although no harm in being the first I guess.

I wouldn't worry yourself too much about anonymous digs.

Been following the thread with interest. Many opinions but have kept them to myself.

I do though just want to add one thing about accountability of referees.

As most on here know, I'm a referee, albeit in a different federation, but I assume it's roughly the same.

Referees, virtually without exception, are competitive and ambitious. If there's a 1st vs 2nd clash in the league we're doing, sure as heck we want to be doing it. If we're refereeing 3rds, we want to be up in 2nds and so on.

Especially in bigger federations than mine, there is serious competition between referees. The only way to get up the grades is perform and keep performing.

This isn't just a cliche. I, as much as anyone, know this happens.

I was on the verge of a promotion last season. I was being assessed with the view to going up. I, by my own admission (and the assessors view as well), had a pretty poor game. 12 months on I'm still in the lower grade, having to prove myself all over again. It still sharks me how I wasted the opportunity to advance. 

I know this happens elsewhere and if this isn't accountability, I don't know what is.

did you get relegated to an even lower grade?

he was on the verge of going up. Would be very harsh to go down on the back of one "pretty poor" game from that position. 

Think of that reserve player you're thinking about bringing into the first team, but then he has a bad game. Would you drop him to the third team as a result?

yes