Phoenix Ownership - Rob says FTFFA (Part 2)

For the previous bullshark story like this Michael Lynch on twitter said that "FFA sources at a very high level confirmed this to me", so I don't think you need to look any further than them for who is deliberately trying to cause damage to the club.

It's funny that the guy from one of those expansion clubs from that previous story was quoted as saying that they had been speaking to several clubs but I haven't read in the subsequent weeks any of these other clubs being specifically named. For some odd reason it is just the Nix that are getting dragged through all of this even though these stories originate out of Australia, none of the Australian A-League clubs they have been talking to have been named.

TV3NZ have confirmed the story is true. They are running two seperate articles on it.

https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/sport/2018/05/footba...

Wellington Phoenix confirm merger talks for partnership

The article is titled "Wellington Phoenix confirm merger talks", but the third paragraph states "It (the Phoenix) didn't deny it had been involved in reported merger proposal talks with a consortium from southwestern Sydney" which to my way of thinking is certainly not the same as confirmation. The rest of the article is just a cut and paste job of what is being reported in the Australian media (xyz reported . . .) and the Phoenix's statement - there is no new information there.

The Siggy article is titled "Phoenix legend Ben Sigmund laments reported merger" and in the article "the suggestion his old outfit might be shifting across the ditch".

These articles are certainly not stating that the story is true, they are commenting on the story.

The first three paragraph read like they confirmed the story to me, if you read it differently so be it.

The Wellington Phoenix say they are in discussion with potential club partners, but have reaffirmed their A-League licence is not for sale.

In a written statement, the struggling club admitted it was talking to "parties interested in participating in the expansion of the A-League".

It didn't deny it had been involved in reported merger proposal talks with a consortium from southwestern Sydney.

Funny to me it doesn’t sound like a merger, if proposal is only 3 games a year max in Sydney, and any contract has that locked in. Plus one partner is an existing A League team, the other just a consortium with money I presume. More like an equity stake, or share buy in (admittedly big one if at 50%).

However for a headline I guess the word merger is more sexy. Language can be everything.

Yeah but ALeague teams don’t make money,so why would anyone “invest” when the only thing of value,or perceived value,is the licence? 

The distinction between “we’re not selling the licence” but “we are talking to potential partners who want to play in the A league” does not make sense to me and I think welnix have completely misled the fan base.

If the huge consensus here - as well as Iffy, apparently - are correct, that these rumours are true, that Welnix have misled us and we are in fact moving to Campbelltown, I will give up instantly, not renew my membership and you will never hear from me again.

Nevertheless, for now, I prefer to believe that this is an effective propaganda campaign by the FFA which has sucked a lot of people in because they were already prepared to believe the worst. Welnix haven't lied to us before - the FFA have.

Marra is CEO of a private equity investment company and on the boards of AAFC (National NPL clubs, advocating ProRel) and Southern Districts Soccer Football Association. 

This geographic centre of SouthWestSydney bid is Liverpool. The catchment area is Sydney football heartland, taking in NPL1 clubs like Sydney United who play at 12,000 seat Edensor Park, Marconi, Bonnyrigg; NPL2 Mounties Wanderers, NPL3 SD Raiders. 

The fan base of these clubs would currently be Wanderers but almost all would identify more with Liverpool geographically than Parramatta; and perhaps more with NPL than A league. 

Some of these clubs are part of multi million dollar registered club operations, with massive revenue and ground ownership. Junior GG played against Marconi U20s earlier in the year and post match Sunday night the club was heaving (many restaurants, bars, pokies, disco, entertainment  etc). Mounties owns multiple registered clubs and is a major feeder club for rugby league, but their football operations are significant too. I know for a fact some NPL2 Mounties Players are earning 6 figures. 

Nicky Carle was brought on recently to oversee youth development at SD.

Short term, W league would definitely be of interest to SWS. FFA would see this as a strong long term base for an A league club. Wanderers would lose a god chunk of fan base but you could argue attachment to existing NPL might be higher than Wanderers/Parramatta connection. 

If strong NPL clubs in the catchment area think ProRel is realistically 7-8 years away, they could see SWS bid as a local option for player opportunities in the meantime.  

Longer term, stacks of money, players, fans, infrastructure for the area to support an A league club. 

Yep and that fan base would be happy with just a W league team and 3/4 home games a year. If people think they will happy to keep it at only 3 games a year while they watch games at a mostly empty ROF you are kidding yourselves. 

 Wonder what the people who worked on the rebranding think about all this talk.

Would accept reluctantly say a share type deal with another region in NZ,but sorry taking it to Aussie is to big a price to pay  and dont get how quick some of you are prepared to take it. If you seriously think it would stay at just the 3 games a year you have to tell me what your drinking or smoking cause i want some of that.

Okay good summary GG. 

So SWS sound unlikely to get one of 2 new A League spots for next proposed expansion, but certainly strong case for longer term expansion plans, or inclusion in a 2nd division if that kicks off.

If they are talking to Welnix, and some sort of deal is struck - obviously be very interesting to know their motivations. 

As other people have mentioned it could all be about trying to set up a W League and/or Youth team in their patch, as part of some longer term strategy to build a 'brand' and strengthen their A League aspirations.

Maybe they take  50% ownership share of Nix now (and pay for it), with an agreement that if the Nix in 2 years time are not granted a licence extension (by the FFA or Independent A League - whoever is running the show) - then SWS buy the remaining 50% of the licence (if licence is indeed transferable). Sort of like a 2 year option, that is used a bit in larger property deals.

However if Nix survive beyond 2 years, then they just stay on as 50% owners, or sell 50% back to Welnix, or sell 50% to someone else - possibly at a profit if Nix are performing well, and/or an Independent run A League is actually making money. With this 2nd scenario, SWS would then have to try secure their own new licence, in a new wave of A League expansion.

The motivation for Welnix in a part sale like this, is of course they at least they get some of their big dollars investment back now, when at the moment is a real risk in 2 years they lose the lot, ie get not a cent back. After 6-7 years no prospects have surfaced in NZ, so they have looked to Oz. At same time they have 2 years to try turns things around on & off the field, whilst still retaining most of the games in Wellington.

Of course this is all, complete guesswork and speculation - but I see some sort of deal like the above being struck - if a deal is struck at all.

I love your thinking, Coochiee. A scenario I could definitely live with. Now, if the Nix could just quickly, and loudly, announce a Wellington based coach, for next season's (predominantly) Wellington based Nix season... 

Hot rumour is FFA are to stall CRWG  for as long as possible.- This will leave the Nix  with a 2 year period to a sign great players to short term deal on no wages or future.  Give a coach a 3 mth window to get a winning team together before first game. Because if we don’t win the first home game by 3 The Fans will stay away .

I am not adverse to Welnix looking at options.  Remember Welnix play the 9 other teams, The A-League officials and the toughest 

oponnent The FFA 

TV 3 had me very worried with their report on the 6 pm news last night which sent me here straight away to YF for more info.

However, it's clear now that TV3  just repeated sections of Davutovich's untrustworthy article from the Sydney Herald-Sun as if it was fact, such as the merger resulting in only three home games in Wellington etc., and then had Siggy respond to that.

Fox Sports website carries a report credited to "Vince Rugari, Source: AAP" mostly parroting the similarly unreliable AAP report: 

https://www.foxsports.com.au/football/a-league/wel...

The NZ Herald deserve some credit for their report yesterday which is less speculative and is clearer than most other news reports in giving more prominence to the official Phoenix statement rebutting the Herald-sun and AAP reports:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/football-soccer/news/ar...

Okay, what I'm believing now is that Morrison had talks with South West Sydney about some sort of cooperation if South Sydney's own A-League bid failed - maybe over a W-League joint entry, a small number of Phoenix home games being played in South West Sydney, a training base there`useful for away games, maybe some Phoenix junior players being farmed out to NPL clubs in SW Sydney to improve their game.

But in no way an equal partnership or closet takeover of the Nix by SW Sydney with the majority of home games being tranferred to South West Sydney as the Herld-Sun or AAP articles suggest.   

The official Phoenix statement has me reassured that Morrison and co are still committed to  a Wellington-based A-League franchise with "pathways for Kiwi players" etc.:

 https://www.wellingtonphoenix.com/news/phoenix-add...

The key statement to me here is: "Welnix as the owners have consistently maintained that they are open to external investors who could bring capital and players to the club as well as providing professional development pathways for the players from New Zealand." 

I agree with David Burgess's opinion piece today on the  NZ Herald website:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/football-soccer/news/ar...

"Merger would mean death. There is no realistic way you can have a club existing in two countries thousands of kilometres apart, and sooner or later, it would become permanent in Australia.

The only merger the Phoenix should be looking at is with Auckland City, or another Auckland based operation, if there was the cash. That might work, with a few more games in the Queen City — nothing else will."

Another option for NZ investment - Slava Meyn, one of the wealthiest men in Canterbury who has owned a club in his home country Russia and has talked of building a 15,000 seat football stadium in Christchurch.

Meyn has already built a muti-million dollar football academy in Yaldhurst and brought out Johan Cruyff's son-in-law to coach here last week.

He's currently working with Christchurch City Council to expand his football centre and to spend millions adding other sports. 

He's said in interviews that his motivation was he was shocked on immigrating to Christchurch (even before the quakes) how poor the sporting facilities were for football and many other sports compared to Russia and Europe.

He prefers living in NZ but found that was one aspect lacking that he could help with.

I mentioned Meyn as a possible saviour last week. But he looks more the sort to invest in infrastructure than a football team.

Handa san who sponsors the Handa Prem, and once sponsored the Black Aces a team in South Africa’s PSL, was another possibility I thought.

Basically after 6-7 years no one in NZ, has thrown their hand up that we know of.

Auckland City is an interesting one. FIFA want to move CWC to a 4 year cycle, plus Tee Dubs have broken their stranglehold. Without a regular annual CWC attendance, they must be reviewing their options. 

Well it sounds all true - not the end of the beginning but the beginning of the end.

A long long time ago, I can still remember how that football used to make me smile.

And I knew if I made my choice - I could join the Fever voice, and maybe I’d be happy for a while.

But February made me shiver - with every paper I delivered - bad news on the doorstep- I couldn’t take one more step.

I can’t remember if I cried when I read of Kalezic’s swallowed pride, but something touched me deep inside.

The day the Phoenix died.

So bye bye to the Kiwi pie,

Drove my Holden to the caketin but the caketin was dry,

And Fever boys were drinking Garage and Wine singing This will be the day that I die.

This will be the day that I die.

(Verses to b e added by the original YF)

I met a girl who sang the blues, and I asked her for some happy news -she just smiled and turned away.

I went down to the Pub at four, where I’d watched the Phoenix years before, but the man there said the Phoenix wouldn’t play.

In the streets the children screamed, the lovers cried and the Fever dreamed, but not a word was spoken.

The tvs all were broken.

And the three men I admired the most, Weemac, Dura and the Caretaker Coach -

They took a plane to Central Coast - the day - the Phoenix died.

So bye bye...

Nicely put together Son . I hope we never have to sing that song.

I have already lost the Kingz and the Knights.

Is the Licence held by wellington phoenix or by the Welnix group?

If the Welnix group hold the licence, then could they use that licence with another club and not the wellington phoenix.

Ie does the Welnix group holding the licence restrict them to using that licence with Wellington Phoenix? If it doesnt, then they could say they are not selling the licence which they have been saying, but still in effect be shutting up shop with the wellington phoenix by basing the clubs activities or the bulk of them in Aus. 

I would be happier if the Welnix group just came out and said;

a- the club will be based in Wellington for the next two years continuing to have all but 3 of its home games in Wellington.

Whatever else is happening, surely that wouldnt be that difficult for them to do to reassure fans.

Ive followed the Phoenix for 5 years and find the current situation quite depressing. 

They reassured fans with a press release yesterday. There's some bad faith going on.

"Why doesn't the club say we're not selling?"
Club: "We're not selling"
"WE DON'T BELIEVE YOU"

From what I've read and heard from the club it is pretty clear they are not selling the license. To me it sounds as though gallop is being a cock and shark stirring a bit by releasing tit bits if info about a meeting he had with Morrison, a meeting he probably he has had with all the clubs in regards to expansion and independent management.

I'd trust our owners over gallop any day.

"We're not looking to sell" (which is what they keep saying) and "we are not selling" are two different things. It's pretty clear Welnix are looking at their options and have been for some time. They aren't being totally upfront about what they're talking to other entities about because they're dealing with sensitive stuff, but that does allow speculation and anxiety among fans.

I hope we're still not talking about this next Sunday, and that the coming week produces a better vision of where this club is going. Over the cliff, or down a bright and shining yellow brick road into a glorious future for NZ football and all who love the game.
Gee, did I really say that? Must be tired. It's been a tough few days/weeks for we Nix fans. ;) 

Slava's money is tied up here in Christchurch, so I would not think he would be keen to keep the club in Welly. At least here we would fill our small rectangular football stadium, and trans-tasman flights would not be a huge issue either.

Is it true that Welnix owners sold there share of the Hurricanes earlier this year?????? 

Yes?

They also said we haven't had a call or an email when they were meeting in person, so not a lot of credibility right now

After this purchase they looked at a simlar deal with The Pulse. 

It did not work out and it was decided to sell back the shares. No big deal

Melbourne Victory Limited ( A non profit organisation) Makes rare loss

Just shows a change in the game - Corrects my info that they don't profit

yeah right

Personally I wouldn't mind if it was moved to Chch; as long as it's not Auck, I could still feel good supporting them. They may find it tougher to attract players down there though.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/10...

and? nothing to do with diluting/selling their A-League stake?

Welnix sold their part share of Hurricanes, knowing Canes were never going to leave Wellington.

Different scenario with Nix, where they currently own 100%.

not sure I know what you are on about (as per)

If we think that Morrison and Dome are lying, then demanding that they make a statement won't make any difference, will it? It'd just be more lies.

Welnix only owned a 12.5% part share of the Hurricanes. No matter who they sold this part share to, Canes were never going to leave Wellington.

Welnix could have sold their 12.5% share to anyone, and squat would have changed at the Canes.

This is very very different to selling to any share (full or in part) in the Nix - as is plenty of people in Australia, want Nix's A League licence, want to close the team down etc etc.

So as Welnix tell us they want to keep team in Wellington (which I believe) - it's not just a case of accepting the first offer, that they receive. They have to be very careful who they bring on board, or heaven help us sell team in full to.

Basically two very different scenarios.

Good interview just completed with Jason Pine on radio sport

can you give a quick summary?

Basically agreed with everything I have said in this thread

Apart from saying he thinks that the goal posts have moved since the last time he spoke with Rob, where we will agree to disagree

Who was interviewed?